putting a subpannal in the shed, sticker shock on wire

[F_R_O_G]

so I made a bunch of plans to brew in the shed and made tables to do it. the only thing I had to do was buy the wire and subpanal. $140 for 150feet of wire!!!!!! anyone able to get me 3 6gadge wires 50'each for cheap? can't be 3-6 (rolex?) has to be separate wires.

 

[MaxStout]

Call some local elec. contractors and see if they have any cut-offs they might sell for a decent price.

What ampacity are you planning for the subpanel? I ran #2 aluminum underground for a 60A panel in a shed in my back yard. It was quite a bit cheaper than the equivalent copper would have been.

 

[F_R_O_G]

it's for 50amps, and I actually need 200feet

 

[NuttyProf21]

You can over rate the wire for the load. How many amps is your control panel going to use? You might want to think about running a larger sub panel especially if you want to run a heater or a/c.

 

[milldoggy]

I got a spool of 6 solid core. This was stuff they run at treatment plants, coating is uber thick. I think I have around 200 feet. You in the Philly area?

 

[F_R_O_G]

i'm in north Seattle area

 

[thadass]

Want a real electrician contact? My girlfriend's brother is an electrician out of Lynnwood and would treat you right... here's his company's yelp page http://www.yelp.com/biz/milestone-electric-seattle
He might know where to get some good cheap wire, too

 

[Facinerous]

First off I have to say. You can not over rate the wire for an intended load. Just had to get that out there.

Second. I would call some scrap yards and see what they have for #6 wire. They just may have what you need. The colors don't matter just as long as you know what they are. 200 feet is quite a bit though, and 150 bucks for 4 X 200 foot lengths of wire is not a bad price at all IMO.

 

[brew_ny]

if you can use 6 ga in aluminum you can get it here for .24 a foot

https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...spx?SectionID=15&xGauge=6&xType=Direct+Burial

all the best

S_M

 

[Facinerous]

I just looked it up. 6ga aluminum wire can be rated for 50 amps. It depends on the insulation temperature type though.

60 Degree C wire is rated for 40 amps.
75 Degree C wire is rated for 50 amps.

I would recommend copper but you can do what you want. Just be sure to buy the right stuff.

And BTW. 8ga copper wire at with 75 dC insulation is rated for 50 amps.

 

[RyanKraus]

I purchased mine from Wire and Cable To Go...

https://www.wireandcabletogo.com/

I purchased 4 colors @ 50' each of THN6 6 AWG THHN Building Wire.
Colors: White; Red; Black; Green
Cost per foot $0.61

Subtotal: $122.00
Tax: $0.00
S/H: $23.59
Grand Total: $145.59

It was the best deal I could find at the time. Sounds like you got a fair quote.

 

[F_R_O_G]

looks like Platt would be a good deal if they will sell to me,i'll give them a call tomorrow

 

[augiedoggy]

This and the fact that I remember what a royal pain the 6 gauge was to run for my Hot tub was the reason I decided to go with a 30A line for my setup.....

If you only need two elements at a time you can aways go with 8/3 wire which ironically about the same price at home depot at the 10/3... you would need to go with 2 4500w elements though since the 8/3 is rated for 40a.... of course thats what I use and its more than enough for 5 or 10 gallon batches... I know if both elements are on full power its going to draw 36a-36.4a which on a dedicated circuit is fine for a 40a rated line.and its highly unlikely you will be running both at full power for any extended period of time if at all.
I remember 3 wire 8 gauge was about $100. for a 125ft roll...at home depot

 

[NuttyProf21]

You can put a larger wire then the load needs. So if you use a #6 wire and only use a 40amp breaker you are fine.

 

[augiedoggy]

You can put a larger wire then the load needs. So if you use a #6 wire and only use a 40amp breaker you are fine.

The whole point of this thread as i understand it, is the higher cost of 6 gauge and how to get around that cost?

 

[F_R_O_G]

Platt.com order # has been processed

You will be emailed a tracking # when your order ships.
Invoice #:
Date: 2014-01-29
Payment: Credit Card
Shipping: FedEx Ground
Bill to:
me
Ship to:
me

Item Description Qty Price Total

4XHHWABLAX1000

4 AWG XHHW-2 Stranded Aluminum Black 1000' 200 0.26 52.00
SubTotal: $52.00
Tax: $5.12
S&H (FedEx Ground): $6.92
Total (USD): $64.04

Special Instructions:

4 cuts @ 50ft

much cheaper than $140

 

[brew_ny]

Platt.com order # has been processed

You will be emailed a tracking # when your order ships.
Invoice #:
Date: 2014-01-29
Payment: Credit Card
Shipping: FedEx Ground
Bill to:
me
Ship to:
me

Item Description Qty Price Total

4XHHWABLAX1000

4 AWG XHHW-2 Stranded Aluminum Black 1000' 200 0.26 52.00
SubTotal: $52.00
Tax: $5.12
S&H (FedEx Ground): $6.92
Total (USD): $64.04

Special Instructions:

4 cuts @ 50ft

much cheaper than $140

Glad it worked out for you

all the best

S_M

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm sure your already aware of this but just in case...

aluminum wire is not used around here anymore and I dont believe it meets code any longer in new york because of all the fire dangers... I remember having to have it replaced at my old place of employment because of fire potential... and we had an issue where it was melting. Aluminum wiring is 55 times more likely to cause a fire than copper wiring...
just some things to keep in mind that my help when wiring it up...

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/15/n...m-wiring-may-need-alternation-for-safety.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/realestate/19home.html?_r=0

http://www.ienga.org/newsletters/vol8no2_aluminum_wiring.pdf

 

[Facinerous]

Don't let Augiedoggy scare you to much. Aluminum wire has been in use for over 30 years. Its just not common any longer and electricians shy away from the stuff as much as possible.

Aluminum is not the best conductor. There is oxidation concerns, which I recommend the use of NO-ALOX. That and the continuous heating and cooling of the conductors will cause expansion and contraction of the aluminum. Over time your connection points in your panel, on a breaker, or splices will loosen because of the expansion and contraction. Last is make sure the lugs you are landing the aluminum wire are AL-CU. That just ensures you will not have any electrolytic corrosion.

Aside from that happy brewing and good luck with your new shed.

 

[F_R_O_G]

ya not worried about the fire danger. i read some about it and it looks like it just gets a bad rap. hell they use it in the power lines with a whole lot more amperage. it's mostly because of improper connections with copper, and you can stop the corrosion. the wire is going strait from main panel to sub panel do i don't have to worry much about connections and I'm getting some corrosion inhibitor that is used by electricians.

 

[augiedoggy]

I actually still have it as the main line coming to my house from the pole... no issues here but the restaurant I worked at for years actually had it ran in underground coming into the panel and it actually melted in the panel. the power company made the owner upgrade the mains to copper in the whole plaza next store as well.
I heard it was a great conductor just not as good for the electrical connection reasons stated above mainly. and that it develops a coating at those connections with can cause poor connections and more heat... you get the picture.
I was shocked to find the statistics though... makes me nervous about me main line.
It certainly explains why its so cheap. I wonder if its old stock from the 70's?

 

[Weezy]

The drop that the electric company runs from the pole to my house and garage are solid core aluminum.

Just like our drinking water is delivered in... dare I say it..... PLASTIC.... (i.e. not stainless) pipes.

 

[augiedoggy]

The drop that the electric company runs from the pole to my house and garage are solid core aluminum.

Just like our drinking water is delivered in... dare I say it..... PLASTIC.... (i.e. not stainless) pipes.

correction that they Ran...in the 70's.... I'm pretty sure the electric companys have nothing to do with aluminum wire today just as you dont see lead lined water pipes being used anymore....If they do I'd really be surprised but states vary... hell you could marry your cousin in some states and the wire is dirt cheap so... Neither is a good idea really. Plus around here the run from the pole to the house is paid for by the homeowner and not really the electric companies responsibility... They will replace it but the home owner buys it. My mother just went through this with them.
Nothing wrong with plastic water lines vs copper... stainless being used in a brew system is mainly for looks, eas of cleaning and false fears tht its bad for the beer... even brass is fine if its been pickled first.
Hell I was told aluminum was unsafe for brewing which I now read is false.
a lot of folks died from lead poisoning and and complications from it because of moonshine made in homemade stills back in the day.

 

[Weezy]

Maybe they ran...in the 70s....and....in 2013. I was left picking up the droppings of cut wire after watching them restring lines that a tree took out. Both the new and old were aluminum. The new pieces I kept. It was such a thick gauge, it made for a great holder for a homemade hop spider.

 

[bsperr]

There's nothing wrong with an aluminum feed for your subpanel. You just have to make sure your lugs in the panel are rated for aluminum (which they more than likely are) and use the anti-oxidation paste. Make sure to follow the torque recommendations for the lugs too. I put in an aluminum service drop for my panel upgrade and didn't think twice about it.

 

[LordUlrich]

Aluminum wire is not allowed in all areas, so check code where you are. Also anything used with aluminum wire needs to be rated for aluminum.
Where I work we do not allow aluminum wire, I believe it is due to heat and water issues in buried conduits. So have stopped using it.
Also, there is a seldom discussed rule in the NEC code about voltage drops. When you start running long electrical lines you need to ensure less than 2% voltage drop (not sure if it is 2%, but sounds right), which may mean you need bigger wire(sorry bout the bad news).
Some of the "aluminum" wire you might see is actually tinned copper, we use it for for extra corrosion resistance, but it looks silver.

I did see a comment about the color not mattering, well not exactly true (not exactly sure of your situation) while the electricity does not care, and inspector seeing a black wire going to a neutral bus wont be happy, some places allow colored tape to mark wires, but not everywhere.

Oh and no water mains are going to be stainless, HDPE (plastic) and ductile iron (Kinda like cast iron) are common, but stainless costs way too much.

 

[mattd2]

Aluminum wire is not allowed in all areas, so check code where you are. Also anything used with aluminum wire needs to be rated for aluminum.
Where I work we do not allow aluminum wire, I believe it is due to heat and water issues in buried conduits. So have stopped using it.
Also, there is a seldom discussed rule in the NEC code about voltage drops. When you start running long electrical lines you need to ensure less than 2% voltage drop (not sure if it is 2%, but sounds right), which may mean you need bigger wire(sorry bout the bad news).
Some of the "aluminum" wire you might see is actually tinned copper, we use it for for extra corrosion resistance, but it looks silver.

I did see a comment about the color not mattering, well not exactly true (not exactly sure of your situation) while the electricity does not care, and inspector seeing a black wire going to a neutral bus wont be happy, some places allow colored tape to mark wires, but not everywhere.

Oh and no water mains are going to be stainless, HDPE (plastic) and ductile iron (Kinda like cast iron) are common, but stainless costs way too much.

I thought it was 5% drop? Tried to find it and only came up with something that says "The National Electrical Code, 210-19(a) (FPN 4) and 215-2 (b) (FPN 3), recommends 5% voltage drop for feeder circuits and 3% for branch circuits"
One question I have is why do the wires have to be run seperately and not as cable?

 

[LordUlrich]

I thought it was 5% drop? Tried to find it and only came up with something that says "The National Electrical Code, 210-19(a) (FPN 4) and 215-2 (b) (FPN 3), recommends 5% voltage drop for feeder circuits and 3% for branch circuits"
One question I have is why do the wires have to be run seperately and not as cable?

It might be 5%, 2% might be for DC or solar systems specifically (that is what I specifically looked it up for, and I am not an electrician I just work with some electrical systems). I know at work we look it up in a table, and use that.
When runs get long, the size of wire does needs to go up (even if it is just so it works), 150 ft is not that long but it might push your need to the next size up.

 

[Facinerous]

Just a little effort

Southwire voltage drop calculator

Phases : Single Phase
Conductor: Aluminum
Installation: Conduit
Voltage: 240
Max Volt Drop: 5%
Length of Cable run: 200 ft
Max current at end of cable run: 50 Amps

Results

1 conductors per phase utilizing a #4 Aluminum conductor will limit the voltage drop to 3.82% or less when supplying 50.0 amps for 200 feet on a 240 volt system.
For Engineering Information Only:
55.0 Amps Rated ampacity of selected conductor
0.4848 Ohms Resistance (Ohms per 1000 feet)
0.048 Ohms Reactance (Ohms per 1000 feet)
12.0 volts maximum allowable voltage drop at 5%
9.145. Actual voltage drop loss at 3.82% for the circuit
0.9 Power Factor
**Note to User:All ampacity values are taken from the Section of 310-15 of the NEC. The conductor characteristics are taken from Table 9 of the NEC. The calculations used to determine the recommended conductor sizes for branch circuits are based on 60°C ampacity ratings for circuits rated 100 amps or less or marked for use with #14 AWG - #1 AWG. Circuits rated over 100 amps or marked for conductors larger than #1 AWG are determined using 75°C ampacity ratings. Calculations to determine service and feeder conductor sizes are based on overcurrent device ratings rather than actual expected loads which are conservative and may yield oversized conductors. No calculations take into account temperature correction factors or conductor de-rating.
This voltage drop calculator is applicable only to NEC applications. It does not optimize conductor sizes for several different loads at various points in a circuit. The total combined load and length of the circuit must be used. Consult with an engineer if your application requires more complex engineering calculations.


Just for funzies.

 

[brew_ny]

Special Instructions:

4 cuts @ 50ft

looks as if his run is 50 feet

S_M

 

[augiedoggy]

It might be 5%, 2% might be for DC or solar systems specifically (that is what I specifically looked it up for, and I am not an electrician I just work with some electrical systems). I know at work we look it up in a table, and use that.
When runs get long, the size of wire does needs to go up (even if it is just so it works), 150 ft is not that long but it might push your need to the next size up.

Makes sense since even with long extention cords there is voltage drop and lower than expected amp ratings.

 

[brewman !]

I just renovated a large house. It had a single 100A overloaded subpanel fed from the main panel in the detached garage. The feed from the garage to the single panel was aluminum Tek 90 cable.

We added a bunch of circuits to the house. I pulled a second Tek90 from the garage to the mechanical room and added a second 100A panel.

I used 3 conductor 1/0 aluminum, which is 3 conductors (red, black and a smaller white, plus a ground). Total cost for 140 feet was $387.

Tek 90 cable is rated for direct burial.

There are a lot of electrical code things to watch out for. You'll probably have to upgrade the main panel in order to add a 100A sub panel. Everything must be either burried or weather protected, general in conduit. You'll need a panel in your shed too.

Its a bit expensive to set this all up, but once its set up you'll probably be very happy with it as well as find other uses for it, ie air compressor, table saw, welders, electric heat in the garage, etc.

Don't ever skimp on setting up electrical stuff correctly and safely. Electrical fires are very real.

 

[F_R_O_G]

I got everything set up in the shed so i figured i'd post it here if anyone is interested instead of making a new thread

I set up a nice control panel, left to right is 20A 2pole switch, ssvr, potentiometer in box, 3prong drier plug. the next picture is the box and wiring all together

 

[augiedoggy]

hopefully your shed doesnt get a lot of condensation and turn into a steam room when brewing.... with everything high up like that it would be a concern if it did.. I had water dripping from my ceiling until I made an exhaust hood.

 

[brewman !]

What does the potentiometer do ?

Never mind... its an SSVR, not an SSR.

 

[kal]

There's nothing wrong with an aluminum feed for your subpanel. You just have to make sure your lugs in the panel are rated for aluminum (which they more than likely are) and use the anti-oxidation paste. Make sure to follow the torque recommendations for the lugs too. I put in an aluminum service drop for my panel upgrade and didn't think twice about it.

+1. Two years ago for our basement reno we had a new 200A main panel installed on the opposite side of the wall to the hydro meter. The short run between the two was aluminum (triple aught I believe). Lugs with paste were used.

Aluminum's not allowed between the panel and outlets/fixtures in certain areas now as others have mentioned. Too many issues with loose connections causing heat and possible fires.

I set up a nice control panel, left to right is 20A 2pole switch, ssvr, potentiometer in box, 3prong drier plug. the next picture is the box and wiring all together

In addition to the steam concern (I'm actually less worried about that), I'd be concerned with the fact that there are completely exposed high voltage/current connections on the SSR/SSVR placed right between two things you'll be touching (the potentiometer dial and the switch). One day you're doing to reach up to adjust one of the two and not pay attention and touch the SSR and get a nasty shock. The propensity for brewers to drink while brewing just escalates the possibility of this happening. You really should put the SSR in the metal box or at least cover/tape up all exposed connection points. Just my 2 cents.

Kal

 

[augiedoggy]

+1. Two years ago for our basement reno we had a new 200A main panel installed on the opposite side of the wall to the hydro meter. The short run between the two was aluminum (triple aught I believe). Lugs with paste were used.

Aluminum's not allowed between the panel and outlets/fixtures in certain areas now as others have mentioned. Too many issues with loose connections causing heat and possible fires.



In addition to the steam concern (I'm actually less worried about that), I'd be concerned with the fact that there are completely exposed high voltage/current connections on the SSR/SSVR placed right between two things you'll be touching (the potentiometer dial and the switch). One day you're doing to reach up to adjust one of the two and not pay attention and touch the SSR and get a nasty shock. The propensity for brewers to drink while brewing just escalates the possibility of this happening. You really should put the SSR in the metal box or at least cover/tape up all exposed connection points. Just my 2 cents.

Kal

I believe that ssr has a clear plastic cover on it but good point ... especially if one has wet hands when reaching up there.

 

[kal]

Ah! You're probably right - I forgot many SSRs came with clear covers. That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Kal

 

[PleasantValleyHops]

How does no one seem to be concerned with the wiring here. It's Def not a good idea to have all that directly above your brew area. And having the wires cross directly over your panel is just a little lazy IMHO. I can't tell by the plug but please tell me their is a connector there. There's plenty of other stuff I'd be concerned about throughout this thread but don't feel like hitting on those this am. at least protect your wires please.

Edit×÷×÷÷×÷÷÷×

I want to clarify more what I was saying. Aluminum is used in the industry a lot. And when I say a lot I mean 100 million dollar builds. Every year. It's not that I'm worried about. It was more the unprotected wiring. I understand I temp set up. To be completely honest. The gfci is truly only needed for pump application. And that I'm not completely sold on. When u build an all e setup is uses same basic technology as a water heater. I don't know when the last time anyone looked. But I can put $1000 that it isn't gfci protected. If you properly protect wiring. You have nothing to worry about. Like frog has stated. I've been burned by water. But have never been one slightest bit worried about shock. But I also have over killed my grounding just in case. #4 to all kettles to central ground bar back to earth. So by no means am I trying to says I wouldn't brew on the set up. I just hope people that post on here will start to only post things they know for sure instead of just throwing out numbers.

Pleasant Valley Hops inc.
Carroll Brewing Company
Frederick Md

 

[augiedoggy]

How does no one seem to be concerned with the wiring here. It's Def not a good idea to have all that directly above your brew area. And having the wires cross directly over your panel is just a little lazy IMHO. I can't tell by the plug but please tell me their is a connector there. There's plenty of other stuff I'd be concerned about throughout this thread but don't feel like hitting on those this am. at least protect your wires please.

Pleasant Valley Hops inc.
Carroll Brewing Company
Frederick Md

I think its been established that this is extreme budget build. Which is fine. However the short cuts and lack of safety effort does raise eyebrows though on what kind of precautions were really taken with that aluminum wire to make sure it really was secured to meet code and be safe.!
Sorry frog that's just how I see it. Am I wrong? I hope so.

And why the big 30a outlet if you are only using 12 gauge 20a wiring and circuit?