putting a subpannal in the shed, sticker shock on wire

[F_R_O_G]

so I made a bunch of plans to brew in the shed and made tables to do it. the only thing I had to do was buy the wire and subpanal. $140 for 150feet of wire!!!!!! anyone able to get me 3 6gadge wires 50'each for cheap? can't be 3-6 (rolex?) has to be separate wires.

 

[MaxStout]

Call some local elec. contractors and see if they have any cut-offs they might sell for a decent price.

What ampacity are you planning for the subpanel? I ran #2 aluminum underground for a 60A panel in a shed in my back yard. It was quite a bit cheaper than the equivalent copper would have been.

 

[F_R_O_G]

it's for 50amps, and I actually need 200feet

 

[NuttyProf21]

You can over rate the wire for the load. How many amps is your control panel going to use? You might want to think about running a larger sub panel especially if you want to run a heater or a/c.

 

[milldoggy]

I got a spool of 6 solid core. This was stuff they run at treatment plants, coating is uber thick. I think I have around 200 feet. You in the Philly area?

 

[F_R_O_G]

i'm in north Seattle area

 

[thadass]

Want a real electrician contact? My girlfriend's brother is an electrician out of Lynnwood and would treat you right... here's his company's yelp page http://www.yelp.com/biz/milestone-electric-seattle
He might know where to get some good cheap wire, too

 

[Facinerous]

First off I have to say. You can not over rate the wire for an intended load. Just had to get that out there.

Second. I would call some scrap yards and see what they have for #6 wire. They just may have what you need. The colors don't matter just as long as you know what they are. 200 feet is quite a bit though, and 150 bucks for 4 X 200 foot lengths of wire is not a bad price at all IMO.

 

[brew_ny]

if you can use 6 ga in aluminum you can get it here for .24 a foot

https://www.platt.com/platt-electri...spx?SectionID=15&xGauge=6&xType=Direct+Burial

all the best

S_M

 

[Facinerous]

I just looked it up. 6ga aluminum wire can be rated for 50 amps. It depends on the insulation temperature type though.

60 Degree C wire is rated for 40 amps.
75 Degree C wire is rated for 50 amps.

I would recommend copper but you can do what you want. Just be sure to buy the right stuff.

And BTW. 8ga copper wire at with 75 dC insulation is rated for 50 amps.

 

[RyanKraus]

I purchased mine from Wire and Cable To Go...

https://www.wireandcabletogo.com/

I purchased 4 colors @ 50' each of THN6 6 AWG THHN Building Wire.
Colors: White; Red; Black; Green
Cost per foot $0.61

Subtotal: $122.00
Tax: $0.00
S/H: $23.59
Grand Total: $145.59

It was the best deal I could find at the time. Sounds like you got a fair quote.

 

[F_R_O_G]

looks like Platt would be a good deal if they will sell to me,i'll give them a call tomorrow

 

[augiedoggy]

This and the fact that I remember what a royal pain the 6 gauge was to run for my Hot tub was the reason I decided to go with a 30A line for my setup.....

If you only need two elements at a time you can aways go with 8/3 wire which ironically about the same price at home depot at the 10/3... you would need to go with 2 4500w elements though since the 8/3 is rated for 40a.... of course thats what I use and its more than enough for 5 or 10 gallon batches... I know if both elements are on full power its going to draw 36a-36.4a which on a dedicated circuit is fine for a 40a rated line.and its highly unlikely you will be running both at full power for any extended period of time if at all.
I remember 3 wire 8 gauge was about $100. for a 125ft roll...at home depot

 

[NuttyProf21]

You can put a larger wire then the load needs. So if you use a #6 wire and only use a 40amp breaker you are fine.

 

[augiedoggy]

You can put a larger wire then the load needs. So if you use a #6 wire and only use a 40amp breaker you are fine.

The whole point of this thread as i understand it, is the higher cost of 6 gauge and how to get around that cost?

 

[F_R_O_G]

Platt.com order # has been processed

You will be emailed a tracking # when your order ships.
Invoice #:
Date: 2014-01-29
Payment: Credit Card
Shipping: FedEx Ground
Bill to:
me
Ship to:
me

Item Description Qty Price Total

4XHHWABLAX1000

4 AWG XHHW-2 Stranded Aluminum Black 1000' 200 0.26 52.00
SubTotal: $52.00
Tax: $5.12
S&H (FedEx Ground): $6.92
Total (USD): $64.04

Special Instructions:

4 cuts @ 50ft

much cheaper than $140

 

[brew_ny]

Platt.com order # has been processed

You will be emailed a tracking # when your order ships.
Invoice #:
Date: 2014-01-29
Payment: Credit Card
Shipping: FedEx Ground
Bill to:
me
Ship to:
me

Item Description Qty Price Total

4XHHWABLAX1000

4 AWG XHHW-2 Stranded Aluminum Black 1000' 200 0.26 52.00
SubTotal: $52.00
Tax: $5.12
S&H (FedEx Ground): $6.92
Total (USD): $64.04

Special Instructions:

4 cuts @ 50ft

much cheaper than $140

Glad it worked out for you

all the best

S_M

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm sure your already aware of this but just in case...

aluminum wire is not used around here anymore and I dont believe it meets code any longer in new york because of all the fire dangers... I remember having to have it replaced at my old place of employment because of fire potential... and we had an issue where it was melting. Aluminum wiring is 55 times more likely to cause a fire than copper wiring...
just some things to keep in mind that my help when wiring it up...

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/15/n...m-wiring-may-need-alternation-for-safety.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/realestate/19home.html?_r=0

http://www.ienga.org/newsletters/vol8no2_aluminum_wiring.pdf

 

[Facinerous]

Don't let Augiedoggy scare you to much. Aluminum wire has been in use for over 30 years. Its just not common any longer and electricians shy away from the stuff as much as possible.

Aluminum is not the best conductor. There is oxidation concerns, which I recommend the use of NO-ALOX. That and the continuous heating and cooling of the conductors will cause expansion and contraction of the aluminum. Over time your connection points in your panel, on a breaker, or splices will loosen because of the expansion and contraction. Last is make sure the lugs you are landing the aluminum wire are AL-CU. That just ensures you will not have any electrolytic corrosion.

Aside from that happy brewing and good luck with your new shed.

 

[F_R_O_G]

ya not worried about the fire danger. i read some about it and it looks like it just gets a bad rap. hell they use it in the power lines with a whole lot more amperage. it's mostly because of improper connections with copper, and you can stop the corrosion. the wire is going strait from main panel to sub panel do i don't have to worry much about connections and I'm getting some corrosion inhibitor that is used by electricians.

 

[augiedoggy]

I actually still have it as the main line coming to my house from the pole... no issues here but the restaurant I worked at for years actually had it ran in underground coming into the panel and it actually melted in the panel. the power company made the owner upgrade the mains to copper in the whole plaza next store as well.
I heard it was a great conductor just not as good for the electrical connection reasons stated above mainly. and that it develops a coating at those connections with can cause poor connections and more heat... you get the picture.
I was shocked to find the statistics though... makes me nervous about me main line.
It certainly explains why its so cheap. I wonder if its old stock from the 70's?

 

[Weezy]

The drop that the electric company runs from the pole to my house and garage are solid core aluminum.

Just like our drinking water is delivered in... dare I say it..... PLASTIC.... (i.e. not stainless) pipes.

 

[augiedoggy]

The drop that the electric company runs from the pole to my house and garage are solid core aluminum.

Just like our drinking water is delivered in... dare I say it..... PLASTIC.... (i.e. not stainless) pipes.

correction that they Ran...in the 70's.... I'm pretty sure the electric companys have nothing to do with aluminum wire today just as you dont see lead lined water pipes being used anymore....If they do I'd really be surprised but states vary... hell you could marry your cousin in some states and the wire is dirt cheap so... Neither is a good idea really. Plus around here the run from the pole to the house is paid for by the homeowner and not really the electric companies responsibility... They will replace it but the home owner buys it. My mother just went through this with them.
Nothing wrong with plastic water lines vs copper... stainless being used in a brew system is mainly for looks, eas of cleaning and false fears tht its bad for the beer... even brass is fine if its been pickled first.
Hell I was told aluminum was unsafe for brewing which I now read is false.
a lot of folks died from lead poisoning and and complications from it because of moonshine made in homemade stills back in the day.

 

[Weezy]

Maybe they ran...in the 70s....and....in 2013. I was left picking up the droppings of cut wire after watching them restring lines that a tree took out. Both the new and old were aluminum. The new pieces I kept. It was such a thick gauge, it made for a great holder for a homemade hop spider.

 

[bsperr]

There's nothing wrong with an aluminum feed for your subpanel. You just have to make sure your lugs in the panel are rated for aluminum (which they more than likely are) and use the anti-oxidation paste. Make sure to follow the torque recommendations for the lugs too. I put in an aluminum service drop for my panel upgrade and didn't think twice about it.

 

[LordUlrich]

Aluminum wire is not allowed in all areas, so check code where you are. Also anything used with aluminum wire needs to be rated for aluminum.
Where I work we do not allow aluminum wire, I believe it is due to heat and water issues in buried conduits. So have stopped using it.
Also, there is a seldom discussed rule in the NEC code about voltage drops. When you start running long electrical lines you need to ensure less than 2% voltage drop (not sure if it is 2%, but sounds right), which may mean you need bigger wire(sorry bout the bad news).
Some of the "aluminum" wire you might see is actually tinned copper, we use it for for extra corrosion resistance, but it looks silver.

I did see a comment about the color not mattering, well not exactly true (not exactly sure of your situation) while the electricity does not care, and inspector seeing a black wire going to a neutral bus wont be happy, some places allow colored tape to mark wires, but not everywhere.

Oh and no water mains are going to be stainless, HDPE (plastic) and ductile iron (Kinda like cast iron) are common, but stainless costs way too much.

 

[mattd2]

Aluminum wire is not allowed in all areas, so check code where you are. Also anything used with aluminum wire needs to be rated for aluminum.
Where I work we do not allow aluminum wire, I believe it is due to heat and water issues in buried conduits. So have stopped using it.
Also, there is a seldom discussed rule in the NEC code about voltage drops. When you start running long electrical lines you need to ensure less than 2% voltage drop (not sure if it is 2%, but sounds right), which may mean you need bigger wire(sorry bout the bad news).
Some of the "aluminum" wire you might see is actually tinned copper, we use it for for extra corrosion resistance, but it looks silver.

I did see a comment about the color not mattering, well not exactly true (not exactly sure of your situation) while the electricity does not care, and inspector seeing a black wire going to a neutral bus wont be happy, some places allow colored tape to mark wires, but not everywhere.

Oh and no water mains are going to be stainless, HDPE (plastic) and ductile iron (Kinda like cast iron) are common, but stainless costs way too much.

I thought it was 5% drop? Tried to find it and only came up with something that says "The National Electrical Code, 210-19(a) (FPN 4) and 215-2 (b) (FPN 3), recommends 5% voltage drop for feeder circuits and 3% for branch circuits"
One question I have is why do the wires have to be run seperately and not as cable?

 

[LordUlrich]

I thought it was 5% drop? Tried to find it and only came up with something that says "The National Electrical Code, 210-19(a) (FPN 4) and 215-2 (b) (FPN 3), recommends 5% voltage drop for feeder circuits and 3% for branch circuits"
One question I have is why do the wires have to be run seperately and not as cable?

It might be 5%, 2% might be for DC or solar systems specifically (that is what I specifically looked it up for, and I am not an electrician I just work with some electrical systems). I know at work we look it up in a table, and use that.
When runs get long, the size of wire does needs to go up (even if it is just so it works), 150 ft is not that long but it might push your need to the next size up.

 

[Facinerous]

Just a little effort

Southwire voltage drop calculator

Phases : Single Phase
Conductor: Aluminum
Installation: Conduit
Voltage: 240
Max Volt Drop: 5%
Length of Cable run: 200 ft
Max current at end of cable run: 50 Amps

Results

1 conductors per phase utilizing a #4 Aluminum conductor will limit the voltage drop to 3.82% or less when supplying 50.0 amps for 200 feet on a 240 volt system.
For Engineering Information Only:
55.0 Amps Rated ampacity of selected conductor
0.4848 Ohms Resistance (Ohms per 1000 feet)
0.048 Ohms Reactance (Ohms per 1000 feet)
12.0 volts maximum allowable voltage drop at 5%
9.145. Actual voltage drop loss at 3.82% for the circuit
0.9 Power Factor
**Note to User:All ampacity values are taken from the Section of 310-15 of the NEC. The conductor characteristics are taken from Table 9 of the NEC. The calculations used to determine the recommended conductor sizes for branch circuits are based on 60°C ampacity ratings for circuits rated 100 amps or less or marked for use with #14 AWG - #1 AWG. Circuits rated over 100 amps or marked for conductors larger than #1 AWG are determined using 75°C ampacity ratings. Calculations to determine service and feeder conductor sizes are based on overcurrent device ratings rather than actual expected loads which are conservative and may yield oversized conductors. No calculations take into account temperature correction factors or conductor de-rating.
This voltage drop calculator is applicable only to NEC applications. It does not optimize conductor sizes for several different loads at various points in a circuit. The total combined load and length of the circuit must be used. Consult with an engineer if your application requires more complex engineering calculations.


Just for funzies.

 

[brew_ny]

Special Instructions:

4 cuts @ 50ft

looks as if his run is 50 feet

S_M