Purging keg with CO2 from fermentation: liquid or gas post?

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Question to the mathmeticians on dilution of oxygen in a 19L keg.
At present my pressure fermenter produces approx 0.1 litres per minute at 9 PSI.
I purge my keg from the fermenter to the liquid post of the keg then out of the gas post to my spunding regulator set at 9 PSI relieving pressure.
How many hours will it take to dilute the Oxygen in my 19 L keg to an acceptable ppM level. In other words very little oxygen remaining in my leg.
 
Question to the mathmeticians on dilution of oxygen in a 19L keg.
At present my pressure fermenter produces approx 0.1 litres per minute at 9 PSI.
I purge my keg from the fermenter to the liquid post of the keg then out of the gas post to my spunding regulator set at 9 PSI relieving pressure.
How many hours will it take to dilute the Oxygen in my 19 L keg to an acceptable ppM level. In other words very little oxygen remaining in my leg.
please have a read of the post linked earlier in this thread about ferment gas and purging. The dilution has been very well explained by @doug293cz
 
please have a read of the post linked earlier in this thread about ferment gas and purging. The dilution has been very well explained by @doug293cz
Help please.
Yes I read a thread where the dilution was mathmatically calculated but i can not find that link.
I just want confirmation of length of time required to dilute the oxygen content in the 19L keg to an acceptable small amount.
My flow rate from fermenter is approx 0.1L / min.
Cheers.
 
please have a read of the post linked earlier in this thread about ferment gas and purging. The dilution has been very well explained by @doug293cz
Why are you worried about the time? Why would you need the keg before fermentation is finished?

To answer your question with any accuracy, we need to know the fermenter headspace volume, the volume of all plumbing connecting the fermenter to the keg, and how the rate of gas evolution varies with time (it's not constant.) Also, what do you consider an acceptable O2 ppm level?

Brew on :mug:
 
Ok I will just assume 0.1L / minute on average for 50 Hrs during rapid fermentation should be sufficient to purge my 19L keg.
I do not connect my keg for purging until the 2nd day of rapid fermentation to allow for the head space in my fermenter King to itself be purged.
I try to have an efficient brew area that is not cluttered with hoses and kegs. I store all my kegs after sanitation in my kegerator.
Thanks for the input.
Cheers
 
Ok I will just assume 0.1L / minute on average for 50 Hrs during rapid fermentation should be sufficient to purge my 19L keg.
I do not connect my keg for purging until the 2nd day of rapid fermentation to allow for the head space in my fermenter King to itself be purged.
I try to have an efficient brew area that is not cluttered with hoses and kegs. I store all my kegs after sanitation in my kegerator.
Thanks for the input.
Cheers
The original analysis assumes everything starts as air atmosphere (fermenter headspace, keg, plumbing), and is connected at the the time of pitch. There is no need to wait for the fermenter headspace to be purged of O2 before hooking up the keg for purging. In fact, doing so may actually reduce the effectiveness of the overall process. Why bother?

Brew on :mug:
 
I'm just wondering if we are all getting paranoid about removing o2 as close to 100% as possible. I subscribe to many homebrew YouTube channels & also to a couple of small independent breweries. They fill into casks & kegs through a hose just pushed through the hole in the cask/keg. Bottle filling is done in the open air where the beer first fills a reservoir before filling the bottles below. Cans are filled in the open & given a quick shot of co2 just before the lid is manually placed on top. These guys produce some great beer but don't appear to be too concerned about o2.
I've wondered that myself, but I doubt breweries are spending so much money and effort to mitigate oxygen just for the fun of it. I think it's especially important for shelf life and for styles like NEIPAs since they are so prone to oxidation.

I remember hearing how The Alchemist brewery (Heady Topper) makes sure their beer has final oxygen levels of less than 1 part per billion, which is crazy low. The founder, Kimmich, said that he was very meticulous about preventing oxygen and that they "gently" transfer the beer with CO2. Heady Topper was pretty much the precursor to NEIPAs and Kimmich seemed to have already known how important it is to mitigate oxygen in that style.
 
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Given Kimmich is the Big Daddy of New England IPAs (note: not "Northeast IPAs") I wouldn't call Heady the "precursor".
I would call it the prototype...and the beginning of things to come.

And, yeah, cold side oxygen is the Kryptonite of NEIPAs...

Cheers!
 
Given Kimmich is the Big Daddy of New England IPAs (note: not "Northeast IPAs") I wouldn't call Heady the "precursor".
I would call it the prototype...and the beginning of things to come.

And, yeah, cold side oxygen is the Kryptonite of NEIPAs...

Cheers!
Precursor, prototype, forerunner, predecessor...same difference.

If we're getting that specific, we can say that Kimmich is actually the Big Daddy of the Vermont Style IPA, which is the precursor/prototype of the New England IPA, which is the precursor/prototype of the Northeast IPA.
 
That's a good way to do it, but I'm planning to use the crazy amount of CO2 from fermentation to purge the keg. I've heard that it does a better job of purging than pushing out sanitizer, but I can't remember the numbers. I also just make up one gallon of sanitizer per batch and it only takes me a few seconds to sanitize the inside of a keg, so I'm good there.

No it doesn't,
@doug293cz has done the maths and in a thread on purging kegs with ferment gas.
Pushing out starsan is even less oxygen provided you start purge after fermenter oxygen used up or purged.
Some keg types can also be completely filled with starsan.
Other option is starsan sanitise then fill keg with water and sod met and purge that with ferment gas.
Leftover liquid in keg may deactivate any further oxygen as sod met antioxidant. I have no numbers re the sod met concentrations.

So I misunderstood doug293cz's posts I mentioned above and liquid purging results in even less than 0.005 ppm (5 parts per billion) of oxygen?
Whether or not pushing sanitizer out with CO2 results in lower O2 depends on whether you use bottled CO2 or fermentation CO2 to push.

Bottled CO2 is less pure (has higher O2 contamination) than fermentation produced CO2. Bottled CO2 is only guaranteed to have less than 30ppm of O2, but is usually much less (more like 50ppb [0.05ppm].) When purging with bottled CO2, the O2 level cannot be driven lower than the O2 content of the CO2 doing the purging. Therefore, if you purge with bottled CO2, you can’t get lower final O2 than 50ppb, or more.

If you push sanitizer out with fermentation CO2, then you will end up with even lower O2 than if you start with an air filled keg. But since even an air filled keg gets below 5ppb (the analysis was pessimistic, and measured results are even better than predicted) there is no need to worry about it. It won’t hurt anything to fill the keg with sanitizer first, but the improvement will be insignificant.

Brew on :mug:
 
Yes it does matter.
Without a doubt, connect to the liquid post. That has the long diptube going all the way to the bottom, resulting in better mixing and purging the air.
Yes, when purging an “empty“ keg, you want to connect the fermenter outlet to the liquid post of the keg, and connect the gas post to some kind of airlock, but not for the reason stated in the quoted post.

Pushing CO2 into the bottom of the keg will actually minimize mixing of the CO2 and air, which will enhance to the CO2’s ability to push air (and O2) out of the keg.

CO2 is more dense than O2 or N2, so will tend to fall to the bottom of the keg if fed from the top, and stay pooled in the bottom if fed from the bottom. Falling from the top will encourage mixing, thus reducing any stratification. Any stratification is only temporary however, as over time (a matter of minutes) gas mixtures homogenize completely due to diffusion.

In my original analysis I estimated how fast CO2 would be pushed into a keg vs. how fast the CO2 would mix with the gas already in the keg (assuming mixing only due to diffusion, no convection currents, or turbulent flow to speed mixing.). Turns out the rates are similar which means that some of the gas in the keg gets pushed out before it mixes completely with the incoming CO2. To the extent the existing headspace gas gets pushed out before mixing, more of the preexisting O2 will be pushed out, than for the case of complete mixing.

The actual case of partial mixing in the keg being purged was too difficult to analyze, so instead I did a worst case analysis. For purging, the worst case is when the incoming CO2 completely mixes with the preexisting headspace gas, before any of the existing headspace gas is displaced from the keg. The worst case analysis came out at 5 ppb residual O2, which means the actual should be even less. The worst case analysis showed the fermentation gas purging method was more than adequate to purge O2 to insignificant levels.

Brew on :mug:
 
Yes, when purging an “empty“ keg, you want to connect the fermenter outlet to the liquid post of the keg, and connect the gas post to some kind of airlock, but not for the reason stated in the quoted post.

Pushing CO2 into the bottom of the keg will actually minimize mixing of the CO2 and air, which will enhance to the CO2’s ability to push air (and O2) out of the keg.

CO2 is more dense than O2 or N2, so will tend to fall to the bottom of the keg if fed from the top, and stay pooled in the bottom if fed from the bottom. Falling from the top will encourage mixing, thus reducing any stratification. Any stratification is only temporary however, as over time (a matter of minutes) gas mixtures homogenize completely due to diffusion.

In my original analysis I estimated how fast CO2 would be pushed into a keg vs. how fast the CO2 would mix with the gas already in the keg (assuming mixing only due to diffusion, no convection currents, or turbulent flow to speed mixing.). Turns out the rates are similar which means that some of the gas in the keg gets pushed out before it mixes completely with the incoming CO2. To the extent the existing headspace gas gets pushed out before mixing, more of the preexisting O2 will be pushed out, than for the case of complete mixing.

The actual case of partial mixing in the keg being purged was too difficult to analyze, so instead I did a worst case analysis. For purging, the worst case is when the incoming CO2 completely mixes with the preexisting headspace gas, before any of the existing headspace gas is displaced from the keg. The worst case analysis came out at 5 ppb residual O2, which means the actual should be even less. The worst case analysis showed the fermentation gas purging method was more than adequate to purge O2 to insignificant levels.

Brew on :mug:
Seriously good info. Thanks a lot! :mug:
 
Only if your fermenter can hold pressure, otherwise the CO2 will escape through gaps in the fermenter (e.g., lid connection) and not purge your keg.

Set it to a lowish threshold pressure, perhaps around 3-10 psi. It will even carbonate your beer somewhat too. ;)
So this is the exact problem I've always had with this method... Corny kegs don't seal unless they are pressurize. So how do y'all make sure that they stay sealed while you are purging with fermentation CO2? Or do you pressurize it a little bit with a CO2 tank first and then use a spunding valve to keep the pressure at like 3PSI?

If that's the case, it seems like that would have a profound effect on your ability to control fermentation ester production since it is suppressed by even 2PSI of head pressure. If you never make english ales thats no problem, but I like me some esters sometimes!

For these reasons I've completely given up on purging with fermentation CO2 and just do a standard liquid purge with a CO2 tank.

On the dry hop discussion, I just dump them in quickly through the top 1.5" port in my Spike CF5. The residual CO2 in solution foams out on contact with the hops and has a purging effect, and then I hit it with 10PSI from my CO2 tank and vent it a few times. I've had NEIPA's stay juice and not brown for month and months like this
 
Corny kegs don't seal unless they are pressurize.

I have sixteen 5 gallon ball lock kegs - all bought well used - and only one has difficulty holding a water tight seal with no pressure.
I've been fermentation-purging my kegs for a few years now - a pair at a time as I do 10 gallon batches with pairs of 6.5 gallon carboys. The end of the daisy chain is from the gas post and I submerge it a few inches deep in a gallon bucket. If the kegs leaked there wouldn't be the profound bubbling :)

Cheers!
 
So this is the exact problem I've always had with this method... Corny kegs don't seal unless they are pressurize. So how do y'all make sure that they stay sealed while you are purging with fermentation CO2? Or do you pressurize it a little bit with a CO2 tank first and then use a spunding valve to keep the pressure at like 3PSI?

If that's the case, it seems like that would have a profound effect on your ability to control fermentation ester production since it is suppressed by even 2PSI of head pressure. If you never make english ales thats no problem, but I like me some esters sometimes!

For these reasons I've completely given up on purging with fermentation CO2 and just do a standard liquid purge with a CO2 tank.
The only reasons I can think of that would cause keg sealing problems are worn out o-rings and the o-ring material.

I've heard that Buna-N o-rings are the least compressible (worst sealing), but have lower oxygen permeability and silicone is the most compressible (best sealing), but has higher oxygen permeability. EPDM o-rings are kind of a middleground since they have low oxygen permeability like Buna-N and are more compressible like silicone.

My kegs have silicone o-rings and I haven't noticed any leaks without pressure.
 
I have sixteen 5 gallon ball lock kegs - all bought well used - and only one has difficulty holding a water tight seal with no pressure.
I've been fermentation-purging my kegs for a few years now - a pair at a time as I do 10 gallon batches with pairs of 6.5 gallon carboys. The end of the daisy chain is from the gas post and I submerge it a few inches deep in a gallon bucket. If the kegs leaked there wouldn't be the profound bubbling :)

Cheers!
Well my experience has been the opposite. I have 11 pin lock kegs and 10 of them requires a burst of about 20psi to get the lids to seal. One will seal with about 10psi

I have replaced the O rings and used keg lube on all of them and replaced the entire lid on 2 of them.

If i put 5psi in them it just leaks out the lids almost immediately and they don't hold liquid or gas at all.

So if I hit them with a sudden hard burst they will seal and then I can back the pressure back down. They will stay sealed at that point until the pressure is almost gone.

just because you see bubbles coming out the hose doesn't mean you have a complete gas seal around the lid. It just means the rate of loss from any lid leaks is lower than the hydrostatic pressure of the water on the end if your hose. So that really doesn't prove you aren't getting air ingress via the lids.

Without positive pressure sealing mine, I just don't trust that air isn't getting in
 
Trust me, these kegs are truly gas tight. I was going light on your proposition...

Cheers!
What does that mean? I'm 100% correct about my own kegs. It sounds like yours behave quite differently.

Mine most definitely leak without pressure, so maybe I'm doing something wrong and have the wrong o rings in there, or maybe it's just pin locks?

Some of my lids have actually been dented and bent and I had to do my best to straighten it them before I could get a seal at all
 
No doubt the key difference is the condition of your kegs vs mine. As I mentioned I have one keg that has a sealing issue and it's because the lid opening is distorted from mishandling by some former owner. Otoh, the other fifteen have by any measure perfect fits with their lids and with a film of silicone lube on the lid gaskets are tight with just the pressure of the bail.

This really shouldn't be that hard to comprehend. Do you think every cornelius keg is afflicted like yours from birth?

Cheers!
 
Hey I had two thoughts regarding the 3 fl. oz air that can't get out of the lid. May have already been covered. First thought was, could you fill the keg up with water inside a clean garbage can or other vessel filled with water? Starsan could be injected later. Or second thought, how about filling the lid with water (upside down) and freezing it?
 
What does that mean? I'm 100% correct about my own kegs. It sounds like yours behave quite differently.

Mine most definitely leak without pressure, so maybe I'm doing something wrong and have the wrong o rings in there, or maybe it's just pin locks?

Some of my lids have actually been dented and bent and I had to do my best to straighten it them before I could get a seal at all
Most of my kegs seal fine, but I have a 2 gallon keg that refused to seal. I switched orings, tried silicone, and it didn't work. Bought an oversized oring from Williams and it seals perfectly. They're more expensive than regular orings, but it was well worth it for me.
 
Most of my kegs seal fine, but I have a 2 gallon keg that refused to seal. I switched orings, tried silicone, and it didn't work. Bought an oversized oring from Williams and it seals perfectly. They're more expensive than regular orings, but it was well worth it for me.
Thanks, I'll give that a try

I honestly thought everyone had this problem and never knew this was abnormal until this conversation
 
No doubt the key difference is the condition of your kegs vs mine. As I mentioned I have one keg that has a sealing issue and it's because the lid opening is distorted from mishandling by some former owner. Otoh, the other fifteen have by any measure perfect fits with their lids and with a film of silicone lube on the lid gaskets are tight with just the pressure of the bail.

This really shouldn't be that hard to comprehend. Do you think every cornelius keg is afflicted like yours from birth?

Cheers!
I don't appreciate nor do I deserve the condescending tone you've assumed, nor the insults to my intelligence. I'm asking an honest question and trying to have a conversation here. Please enhance your chill.

Having never used anyone else's kegs except for my own, I have no frame of reference from which to base any other opinion. So yes, I believed (apparently erroneously) that all corny kegs cannot be sealed without pressure applied as a byproduct of their design, since I have had no experience that demonstrated otherwise to me.

The simple fact that I have this issue though, should tell you that the advice to use fermentation CO2 will not work equally well for everyone, so that might be something to consider adding to any future advice to do so. It sounds like it works very well IF you have corny kegs that properly seal without any pressure inside (though I don't necessarily know how you can prove this, since you need pressure to do a bubble test).
 
Thanks, I'll give that a try

I honestly thought everyone had this problem and never knew this was abnormal until this conversation
It’s not you. Some of my kegs seal on their own, most don’t.

there’s no reason to stop using ferm gas to purge, even for your English stuff. pretty much any commercial ferm over 10bbl is gonna have 2-3-4-5 psi pressure on it just from hydrostatic. If the 2 or 3psi needed to seal your keg killed your esters then just build them back up. you can warm the temp, decrease the pitch rate, don’t oxygenate, add a lot of zinc/nutrients, or start warm then finish cool. For simplicity I’d set your ferm temp based on esters as opposed to the yeasts “preferred” temp range.

also id Point out that for anyone fermenting under pressure, we’re losing co2 blow off by sealing the ferm and spunding. somebody would have to do the calcs but if that gas is still in ferm it’s not available to purge the keg. The higher the pressure the less purging you get. Not sure how significant but it definitely made me stop and think the last ferm I did under pressure. Maybe a sanitizer fill might be necessary when spunding.

lastly I think this 3oz of air trapped in lid space is overestimated. you fill the keg to the rim. Then you hit te poppets to let water into your gas/beer lines. Add bit more water, filling back up to rim. Now putting in your lid requires it to be slid in vertically, which is to say at least 50% of this “under the lid” area is below the water line. Probably closer to 2/3. I’d wager it’s more like 1oz, 1.5 at most if you fill and seal this way.
 
I don't appreciate nor do I deserve the condescending tone you've assumed, nor the insults to my intelligence. I'm asking an honest question and trying to have a conversation here. Please enhance your chill.

Seriously? You argued against everything I related about MY KEGS like you knew what you were talking about...
 
Seriously? You argued against everything I related about MY KEGS like you knew what you were talking about...
My very first post directed to you said "my experience has been the opposite" and then I proceeded to relate my experience. I never argued that you were wrong or that it wasn't working for you, but I did put forward a counterpoint to your "proof" of lid sealing since I don't agree that it empirically shows that you have zero air diffusion in through your lid.. maybe a simple misunderstanding here?

My first post on this thread was directed at island lizard and included my erroneous assumption that all kegs require pressure to seal. Thank you for educating me otherwise. I then asked a couple questions about how you all are doing it, which you have also answered, so thank you.

I came here to learn my friend, not sure what I've done wrong here
 
Hey I had two thoughts regarding the 3 fl. oz air that can't get out of the lid. May have already been covered. First thought was, could you fill the keg up with water inside a clean garbage can or other vessel filled with water? Starsan could be injected later. Or second thought, how about filling the lid with water (upside down) and freezing it?
Freezing the lid full of starsan/sani clean is a truly genius idea! Kudos
 
Interesting thread - I learned a long time ago to jack up the CO2 pressure to seal the keg lid and that's what I still do. I figure it's good insurance, perhaps not needed as I see by some here.

It's all about sharing and learning, yes that's why I come to this site too!
 
Freezing the lid full of starsan/sani clean is a truly genius idea! Kudos
Thanks! I wasn't exactly thinking of freezing the Starsan too but that might be workable. I don't know Starsan's freezing point, I had in mind to just add it afterwards in the large vessel case. It could be added to the water already in the keg in the freezing lid idea. I was trying to think of a liquid that freezes around the temps of water that would be food safe because water expands when it freezes so it would contract when melting. I don't see it as an issue given the small volume, the keg is closed so the pressure might drop ever so slightly.
 
Whether or not pushing sanitizer out with CO2 results in lower O2 depends on whether you use bottled CO2 or fermentation CO2 to push.

Bottled CO2 is less pure (has higher O2 contamination) than fermentation produced CO2. Bottled CO2 is only guaranteed to have less than 30ppm of O2, but is usually much less (more like 50ppb [0.05ppm].) When purging with bottled CO2, the O2 level cannot be driven lower than the O2 content of the CO2 doing the purging. Therefore, if you purge with bottled CO2, you can’t get lower final O2 than 50ppb, or more.

If you push sanitizer out with fermentation CO2, then you will end up with even lower O2 than if you start with an air filled keg. But since even an air filled keg gets below 5ppb (the analysis was pessimistic, and measured results are even better than predicted) there is no need to worry about it. It won’t hurt anything to fill the keg with sanitizer first, but the improvement will be insignificant.

Brew on :mug:
I think we've been here before, but if bottled CO2 is 30 ppm O2, that's by volume (or number, same thing.) Concentration of O2 in beer is by weight (1 ppm = 1 mg O2(aq)/kg).

If the CO2 is 30 ppm O2, then pressurizing a tank to 2 bar with this CO2/O2 mixture (if my back-of-the-envelope calculation is right) gives about a milligram of O2 in a 5-gallon tank. A milligram of O2 in 5 gallons of beer is roughly 50 ppb by weight. That's at or below the threshold professionals will aim for.

But you don't need to worry about a full 5-gallon tank of gas, you need to worry about the headspace. Say that's a liter, and the rest of the gas is displaced when you fill it with beer. That liter of headspace has about 50 micrograms of O2(g) in it, which when it fully dissolves into and reacts with your beer (not when it comes into equilibrium through Henry's Law, that's much less O2(aq)), is the equivalent of about 2.5 ppb total oxygen, which is a ridiculously low level, almost certainly less than you've introduced in other steps of the process.

TL; DR: if your tank CO2 is at 30 ppm O2, you have nothing to worry about ...

... as long as you can effectively purge your keg with it. This is not easy in practice. Filling with liquid and pushing out, you're limited by the unavoidable air-filled headspace (even a few milliliters maters), and @doug293cz has already shown it's not straightforward with pressurize-vent cycles. But impurities in the tank are never the problem. (Edit: provided that you're in fact at that 30 ppm level.)
 
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