Pseudo-kettle souring - let's discuss

[TravelingLight]

This may get a little long in the tooth, I'll try to keep it cogent and concise.

Gearing up for my first sour. I'm basing this off of a Mike Tonsmiere (aka The Mad Fermentationist, "TMF") recipe/experiment. (source: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/11/extract-sour-stout-on-blackberries-and.html)

This is my third beer, and will (hopefully) be my last extract beer. For those who don't care about the link, grain bill is as follows:

3.3# Rye LME
3# Wheat DME
.75# CaraMunich II
.75# Chocolate Rye
.5# Roasted Barley (300L) (I'll probably use 500L to get it darker)
.5# Extra Special

Now, here's where I am deviating from TMF's recipe. He used the Oud Bruin blend, which is unavailable. So, after researching and emailing with TMF, I've decided to just pitch lacto and sour it, then pitch sacc and ferm it out.

I'm leaning towards using Omega's OYL-605 (brevis and planterum). OYL-605 states that optimal temp range is 68-95 degrees F. I like this because I really don't want to do a true kettle sour and have to worry about keeping it above 100 degrees and all that PIA crap.

This recipe has the specialty malts steeping at 165 for 30 mins. So I'm wondering if there is any problem with the following course of action:

1. Heat water to 165, add specialty malts and steep.
2. Then add my LME and DME, don't boil it, but keep the temp up to dissolve all the extract.
3. Cool it to lacto pitch temp (68-95), rack it to a carboy, pitch the lacto (I will do a starter for this). And let it sit for a day or two and check ph. Apparently this stuff can sour pretty quickly.
4. When ph is where I want it, rack it back into my kettle, proceed with my full 60 minute boil (kill the lacto) and add my hops (only .5 oz. Czech Saaz at 35 mins).
5. Cool to sacc pitch temp, rack to carboy, pitch sacc yeast and let it ferment out.

This will also be getting fruited and oaked, but I've got that process down. I basically wanted to see if there are any problems with this. If this process works, I like the fact that I pasteurize/kill the lacto so I don't have to worry about any post boil infection of any of my equipment. And I know that's more back and forth between vessels and cleaning that with a traditional kettle souring method, but it also negates the need to keep the kettle warm, which I would like to avoid because it's another PIA.

Thoughts? I'd love to get a spirited discussion on this. Thanks.

 

[Natdavis777]

Ive only made a few sours, so I am by no means an expert. Since you are using extract, I dont think it would be necessary to do a full 60 min boil. 15 would suffice to kill off the lacto. Another issue I see with a 60 min boil will be that you will be driving off some alcohol created by the brevis. If that is fine by you, then stick with the 60 min boil. Other than that, it looks fine by me. Ive used Brevis in the past to make a lacto blend for some fruit lambics and it does sour very quickly.

Now you have me wanting to do a Berliner Weisse...

 

[TravelingLight]

Ive only made a few sours, so I am by no means an expert. Since you are using extract, I dont think it would be necessary to do a full 60 min boil. 15 would suffice to kill off the lacto. Another issue I see with a 60 min boil will be that you will be driving off some alcohol created by the brevis. If that is fine by you, then stick with the 60 min boil. Other than that, it looks fine by me. Ive used Brevis in the past to make a lacto blend for some fruit lambics and it does sour very quickly.

Now you have me wanting to do a Berliner Weisse...

Fair points, thanks for that. I'm thinking about pitching a large count of US-05 for my sacc pitch. I've seen others report that 05 has no trouble with low ph. So I guess if I do drive off some alcohol created by the brevis, I'm sure it would be negligible after ferming it out with 05. Agree?

 

[paulegli]

1. Heat water to 165, add specialty malts and steep.
2. Then add my LME and DME, don't boil it, but keep the temp up to dissolve all the extract.

I started boiling all of my kettle sours before pitching my lacto source after I had a batch get infected with enteric bacteria (think parmesan cheese and gym socks). The only reason I can think of to avoid boiling at this point would be to minimize caramelization and melanoidin formation to get an extremely light and clear beer. You're using dark malts in your grain bill, however, so a boil probably wouldn't have that effect here.

3. Cool it to lacto pitch temp (68-95), rack it to a carboy, pitch the lacto (I will do a starter for this). And let it sit for a day or two and check ph. Apparently this stuff can sour pretty quickly.
4. When ph is where I want it, rack it back into my kettle, proceed with my full 60 minute boil (kill the lacto) and add my hops (only .5 oz. Czech Saaz at 35 mins).
5. Cool to sacc pitch temp, rack to carboy, pitch sacc yeast and let it ferment out.

If you can, keep your wort in the kettle during souring. Racking back and forth to a carboy can introduce oxygen and wild bugs. I bring my kettle into my garage, put it on a regular drug store heating pad, and cover it with a sleeping bag during souring. I've used my STC-1000 as a temperature controller for the heating pad, but it doesn't seem like that is necessary. The heating pad, turned on all the time, will keep 5 gallons of wort at about 90F indefinitely. I'll also put a blanket of CO2 on top of the liquid to minimize oxygen contact.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

First thing, I highly recommend you join the Milk The Funk (MTF) Facebook group. TONS of good info there on sours in general. I've done several sours at this point, and in general there is nothing wrong with what you've spelled out, so I encourage you to go down that route, see how it works, and then adjust next time around based on your findings. Also, I'm happy to have a spirited discussion on this topic, and I'm currently wearing my Mad Fermationist T-shirt

That being said, it's not how I'd approach the type of beer you're looking to make, and while I mean no disrespect to the others that have responded, you are getting some bad information. Here is how I would alter your approach:

1. Heat water to 165, add specialty malts and steep.

2. Then add my LME and DME, heat to 180, toss in a whirlfloc tab or some Irish Moss, and kill the flame.

3. Cool to 100F and rack to carboy

4. Use Swanson's L. Plantarum pro-biotic to sour. Don't make a starter, don't even open the capsules. Just toss them in, 1 per gallon of wort. If you're looking for more diversity than a Plantarum strain, go with these capsules.

(If you pitch a pure lacto strain there is no reason to purge with CO2. If you use a mixed culture, purge with CO2)

5. Allow to sour for about 2 days while it cools from 100F. I'd check pH at 24, 36, and 48 hours. Stop when it's in the 3.4 - 3.2 range, depending on your tastes.

6. When it's to your liking, go ahead and cool to sacc pitch temp. Don't bother boiling it. I prefer WLP001 (or S05), WLP029, or Conan for these types of beers. Do a normal yeast starter here. Pitch with 1 tsp of yeast nutrient and 60 seconds of pure O2 if you can. If you can't, don't worry about. It'll still make beer.

7. If you want to, dry hop afterward for ~5 days at 65F.

Some info that I don't agree with in this thread:

- If you want to boil your beer, don't have any concern for the alcohol you will boil off from your lacto fermentation. If any was even produced (highly unlikely) it will have been minimal anyway.

- There is nothing to worry about introducing oxygen between when your lacto ferment finishes and you start your boil

- If you're going with the Lacto strains you're choosing, you do not need a heat source

- If you're doing a pure Lacto pitch, you also do not need a CO2 blanket

A couple of other words of advice. You said this is your first sour, but you're making it very complicated - complex grain bill, adding fruit, adding oak, and so on. I would advise you to keep it very simple your first time out, so at the outcome you're not trying to figure out which of your multiple variables produced the taste that you like or dislike. I would go with a simple grain bill - 50/50 Pilsner LME/DME and Wheat LME/DME, no hops, use a pure strain of Lacto and a single yeast strain. Then you can kick it up a notch the first time around.

Happy to chat more in the thread or shoot me a PM.

 

[TravelingLight]

I started boiling all of my kettle sours before pitching my lacto source after I had a batch get infected with enteric bacteria (think parmesan cheese and gym socks). The only reason I can think of to avoid boiling at this point would be to minimize caramelization and melanoidin formation to get an extremely light and clear beer. You're using dark malts in your grain bill, however, so a boil probably wouldn't have that effect here.



If you can, keep your wort in the kettle during souring. Racking back and forth to a carboy can introduce oxygen and wild bugs. I bring my kettle into my garage, put it on a regular drug store heating pad, and cover it with a sleeping bag during souring. I've used my STC-1000 as a temperature controller for the heating pad, but it doesn't seem like that is necessary. The heating pad, turned on all the time, will keep 5 gallons of wort at about 90F indefinitely. I'll also put a blanket of CO2 on top of the liquid to minimize oxygen contact.

Great advice. I'm leaning more and more towards keeping it in the kettle. Especially in light of what drgonzo says below...

 

[TravelingLight]

First thing, I highly recommend you join the Milk The Funk (MTF) Facebook group. TONS of good info there on sours in general. I've done several sours at this point, and in general there is nothing wrong with what you've spelled out, so I encourage you to go down that route, see how it works, and then adjust next time around based on your findings. Also, I'm happy to have a spirited discussion on this topic, and I'm currently wearing my Mad Fermationist T-shirt

That being said, it's not how I'd approach the type of beer you're looking to make, and while I mean no disrespect to the others that have responded, you are getting some bad information. Here is how I would alter your approach:

1. Heat water to 165, add specialty malts and steep.

2. Then add my LME and DME, heat to 180, toss in a whirlfloc tab or some Irish Moss, and kill the flame.

3. Cool to 100F and rack to carboy

4. Use Swanson's L. Plantarum pro-biotic to sour. Don't make a starter, don't even open the capsules. Just toss them in, 1 per gallon of wort. If you're looking for more diversity than a Plantarum strain, go with these capsules.

(If you pitch a pure lacto strain there is no reason to purge with CO2. If you use a mixed culture, purge with CO2)

5. Allow to sour for about 2 days while it cools from 100F. I'd check pH at 24, 36, and 48 hours. Stop when it's in the 3.4 - 3.2 range, depending on your tastes.

6. When it's to your liking, go ahead and cool to sacc pitch temp. Don't bother boiling it. I prefer WLP001 (or S05), WLP029, or Conan for these types of beers. Do a normal yeast starter here. Pitch with 1 tsp of yeast nutrient and 60 seconds of pure O2 if you can. If you can't, don't worry about. It'll still make beer.

7. If you want to, dry hop afterward for ~5 days at 65F.

Some info that I don't agree with in this thread:

- If you want to boil your beer, don't have any concern for the alcohol you will boil off from your lacto fermentation. If any was even produced (highly unlikely) it will have been minimal anyway.

- There is nothing to worry about introducing oxygen between when your lacto ferment finishes and you start your boil

- If you're going with the Lacto strains you're choosing, you do not need a heat source

- If you're doing a pure Lacto pitch, you also do not need a CO2 blanket

A couple of other words of advice. You said this is your first sour, but you're making it very complicated - complex grain bill, adding fruit, adding oak, and so on. I would advise you to keep it very simple your first time out, so at the outcome you're not trying to figure out which of your multiple variables produced the taste that you like or dislike. I would go with a simple grain bill - 50/50 Pilsner LME/DME and Wheat LME/DME, no hops, use a pure strain of Lacto and a single yeast strain. Then you can kick it up a notch the first time around.

Happy to chat more in the thread or shoot me a PM.

I've heard so much good stuff about the milk the funk group. I need to check it out, I just barely use FB anymore these days. Great advice on the probiotics. I've heard others mention that and I'm considering it as well. Also, thanks for the advice on simplicity and fruit and such. I'm still going to fruit and oak this beer. If it's a bust, oh well it's a learning lesson. But I'm excited to try.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Cool, I highly encourage exploration and experimentation in this hobby! Let us know the results, and I'm happy to chat further on these topics at anytime!

 

[TravelingLight]

Cool, I highly encourage exploration and experimentation in this hobby! Let us know the results, and I'm happy to chat further on these topics at anytime!

Sounds great man I really appreciate it! I'm still eye balling that sour red you got...have some more in October I believe you mentioned a while back??

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Sounds great man I really appreciate it! I'm still eye balling that sour red you got...have some more in October I believe you mentioned a while back??

Hah, I thought I recognized your user name from some thread, but couldn't remember which! I see you're keeping an eye on my brew schedule now

Yes, I'm actually getting ready to start my "summer of sour" brew sessions now that the weather is warming up a bit. My plan is to brew a sour blonde, sour red, sour brown, and finally a sour stout. I've already started growing up my house bug farm again from last year's. I will pitch a 2L starter into 6 gallons of the sour blonde wort, and then for the other beers, I will just re-use the same fermenter and cake.

I've planned it so that the day I rack the sour blonde off to secondary is the same day that I'll brew the sour red, and so on, for four months.

Each beer will see 30 days in primary at 80F and then be racked off to secondary with wine soaked French Oak. They'll remain there for 90-120 days, until they're ready to bottle, and then go 30 days in the bottle before I crack the first one.

Hit me up in a few months and I'd be happy to send some of each batch on to you to try out!

My house bug farm consists of stepped up dregs from 45 different commercial sours. Each was initially stepped up with 100ml of 1.02 OG wort directly in the bottle. If they grew a pellicle then they were included in the bug farm. I probably went through 75-100 bottles to arrive at these 45:

Bruery Filmishmish
Bruery Sans Pagaie
Bruery Wanderer
Cantillon Classic (2013)
Crooked Stave Nightcatp
Crooked Stave Raspberry Origins
Firestone Walker Agrestic
Firestone Walker Bretta Rose
Firestone Walker Bretta Rose
Firestone Walker Feral One
Firestone Walker Lil' Opal
Firestone Walker SLOambic
Hill Farmstead Brother Soigne
Hill Farmstead Flora
Hill Farmstead Florence
Hill Farmstead Sue
Odell Brazzle
Rare Barrel Cosmic Dust
Rare Barrel Forces Unseen
Rare Barrel Map of the Sun
Rare Barrel Map of the Sun
Rare Barrel SKUs me
Rare Barrel Sourtooth Tiger
Russian River Framboise for a Cure 2014
Russian River Tempation
Russian River Beatification
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Always in Death
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales BA Cellarman
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales BA Fumare
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Bright Sea Blonde b2
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Farmhouse Noir b2
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Fruit Punch #1
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Fruit Punch #2
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Lady in Grey
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Love's Armor (batch 3)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Naughty Ron
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Nonna's Blend 7
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Palimpsest
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Quality of Life (batch 2)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Saison Bernice (b12)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Saison Bernice (batch 10)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales West Ashley (batch 8)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Westly
Sonoma Pride Amasa
Sonoma Pride Dauenhauer

 

[TravelingLight]

Hah, I thought I recognized your user name from some thread, but couldn't remember which! I see you're keeping an eye on my brew schedule now

Yes, I'm actually getting ready to start my "summer of sour" brew sessions now that the weather is warming up a bit. My plan is to brew a sour blonde, sour red, sour brown, and finally a sour stout. I've already started growing up my house bug farm again from last year's. I will pitch a 2L starter into 6 gallons of the sour blonde wort, and then for the other beers, I will just re-use the same fermenter and cake.

I've planned it so that the day I rack the sour blonde off to secondary is the same day that I'll brew the sour red, and so on, for four months.

Each beer will see 30 days in primary at 80F and then be racked off to secondary with wine soaked French Oak. They'll remain there for 90-120 days, until they're ready to bottle, and then go 30 days in the bottle before I crack the first one.

Hit me up in a few months and I'd be happy to send some of each batch on to you to try out!

My house bug farm consists of stepped up dregs from 45 different commercial sours. Each was initially stepped up with 100ml of 1.02 OG wort directly in the bottle. If they grew a pellicle then they were included in the bug farm. I probably went through 75-100 bottles to arrive at these 45:

Bruery Filmishmish
Bruery Sans Pagaie
Bruery Wanderer
Cantillon Classic (2013)
Crooked Stave Nightcatp
Crooked Stave Raspberry Origins
Firestone Walker Agrestic
Firestone Walker Bretta Rose
Firestone Walker Bretta Rose
Firestone Walker Feral One
Firestone Walker Lil' Opal
Firestone Walker SLOambic
Hill Farmstead Brother Soigne
Hill Farmstead Flora
Hill Farmstead Florence
Hill Farmstead Sue
Odell Brazzle
Rare Barrel Cosmic Dust
Rare Barrel Forces Unseen
Rare Barrel Map of the Sun
Rare Barrel Map of the Sun
Rare Barrel SKUs me
Rare Barrel Sourtooth Tiger
Russian River Framboise for a Cure 2014
Russian River Tempation
Russian River Beatification
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Always in Death
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales BA Cellarman
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales BA Fumare
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Bright Sea Blonde b2
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Farmhouse Noir b2
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Fruit Punch #1
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Fruit Punch #2
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Lady in Grey
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Love's Armor (batch 3)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Naughty Ron
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Nonna's Blend 7
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Palimpsest
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Quality of Life (batch 2)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Saison Bernice (b12)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Saison Bernice (batch 10)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales West Ashley (batch 8)
Sante Adairius Rustic Ales Westly
Sonoma Pride Amasa
Sonoma Pride Dauenhauer

This is phenomenal, oh how I wish we were neighbors!

I'm glad you mentioned the wine soaked oak. I was planning on the same. Can you give me details of your process? I'd really like to know...

1. What kind of wine are you using?
2. How long are you soaking it?
3. Boil or steam prior to soaking it?
4. Just putting the cubes in the beer or the soaking solution too?
5. What's your ratio of cubes to beer?
6. Finally, 90-120 days on oak isn't too much for your tastes? With all those dregs I'm sure you've got some brett too, so I'm sure the brett has an effect on the oakiness.

Thanks!

 

[m00ps]

*totally not ridiculous list of sours*

jebus dude, although I guess stepping them up in the bottle themselves wouldnt be too much work. Howd you make/maintain the starter wort to go in each one? Im guessing there is no way this all went down on the same day.

I just dumped dregs one by one into a starter. Then added some sour bugs I got from a tomato plant to make it feel more like its my blend

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Hey, sure thing!

1. What kind of wine are you using?

- Living in California, I'm a big fan of using California wine in my beer making. For my sour blonde I use a Russian River Valley Chardonnay. For my sour red I use a Central Coast Gypsy Noir red wine blend. It's a blend of Syrah, Petit Sirah, Mouvedre, Cinsault, and Grenace juice. I've not yet decided what I'll use for the sour brown (haven't brewed it yet), but for the sour stout I was thinking a Zin Port would be nice.

2. How long are you soaking it?

- Last year I soaked it for about 2 weeks in a Ziploc bag prior to using it.

3. Boil or steam prior to soaking it?

- For these sours no, as I was hoping to get some oak flavor; however, for my 15 gallon solera project I boiled the oak for about 10 minutes prior to using it, as I plan on leaving the oak in there forever, and wasn't looking for a lot of oak flavor, more to give the bugs someplace to hide and the brett something interesting to chew on.

4. Just putting the cubes in the beer or the soaking solution too?

- Sorry, I don't really understand this question? I don't use oak cubes though, I use a product called BeerStix, and those I soaked in the wine as describe above. I like the BeerStix much better than the cubes. I bought a big pack (25 of them I think) of the medium toast French Oak, and I like them quite a bit.

5. What's your ratio of cubes to beer?

- For the Beerstix product they are designed for 5 gallons of beer. I use 1 in my 6 gallon batches, and I used 3 in my 15 gallon solera.

6. Finally, 90-120 days on oak isn't too much for your tastes? With all those dregs I'm sure you've got some brett too, so I'm sure the brett has an effect on the oakiness.

- Not so far. The two batches I brewed last year turned out A-OK!

 

[blizz81]

Why the rack to carboy, and then rack back to boil kettle? Kind of compromising the main plus of kettle souring, right? (as in minimizing contamination).

 

[drgonzo2k2]

jebus dude, although I guess stepping them up in the bottle themselves wouldnt be too much work. Howd you make/maintain the starter wort to go in each one? Im guessing there is no way this all went down on the same day.

I just dumped dregs one by one into a starter. Then added some sour bugs I got from a tomato plant to make it feel more like its my blend

Hahaha, no, this was over the course of several months.

Basically whenever I consumed one of those bottles I would flame the top of the bottle with a pocket blow torch, and then cover it up with aluminum foil that I also flamed with a torch. I'd then just stick it back in the fridge.

Once I got enough to mess with (yeah, making 100ml of wort sucks), I would make a batch of starter wort. This was generally when I'd have 5-10 bottles or so, so I'd just make 500ml or 1L of starter wort with DME on the stove top.

Then I'd put about 100ml or so in each bottle, re-seal the bottle with foil, give it a good shake, and then placed them in a very warm part of the house. I'd check on them ever week or so, and if something grew a pellicle it got moved over to the "A-Team" section for later. If something hadn't grown a pellicle after a bout a month, I'd just toss it.

This was a repeated process, and once I got to 10 bottles ready to go, I did a 1L starter of 1.04 OG wort in a 2L flask, and dumped in the 10 bottles.

Then when I had enough bottles again, I dumped the 2L flask to a 5L flask, with some more starter wort, and just kept adding more bottles and occasionally more wort until the thing was nearly full.

I would then pull 500ml off of the big flask and add to 1.5L of wort to make a 2L starter for each brew session.

I also harvested 4 quart sized mason jars when I was all done, and those have been in the back of my fridge since last summer. I just pulled two of them out, decanted about half the old beer, and pitched them into 2L of 1.04 OG wort, basically giving me 3L again. They took right off, had a nice sacc fermentation, and it's already smelling/tasting pretty nice

I figured if bugs and yeast can live for years inside a bottle and be viable, should be the same in a mason jar, and looks like they're doing okay now.

This time I'm just going to pitch 2L of this starter into my first sour this summer (the blonde) and then just keep reusing the same fermenter/cake for the other 3. I'll then save back another couple of jars for the next go around.

I've still got 2 quart sized jars of the original batch just in case something goes south.

So far two people that I know have harvested the dregs from my sours and used them to make very nice sours of their own.

 

[TravelingLight]

4. Just putting the cubes in the beer or the soaking solution too?

- Sorry, I don't really understand this question? I don't use oak cubes though, I use a product called BeerStix, and those I soaked in the wine as describe above. I like the BeerStix much better than the cubes. I bought a big pack (25 of them I think) of the medium toast French Oak, and I like them quite a bit.

Sorry, I should have more specific. What I meant was, when you soak the BeerStix in the wine, and you're ready to throw the stix in the beer, do you just pull the stix out of the wine "marinade" (for lack of a better term) and toss it in by itself? Or do you also toss in the wine that it was soaking in?

I've seen those BeerStix but hadn't heard how people like them. But I think you just sold me on it. No problem with not boiling it? I guess by the time I get around to oaking it, the low ph and the alcohol would likely prevent anything bad from occurring?

Thank you so much, this is a tremendous amount of very valuable info for me.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

No problem at all. I really enjoy chatting about this sort of stuff, so hit me up anytime!

I did not put the wine in along with the beerstix. I just used a pair of tongs to take it out, and put in the bottom of my secondary fermenter. Then I sealed it up, purged the heck out of it with CO2, and transferred over my beer.

I did not have any problems using un-boiled oak, but between the crazy amount of bugs, low pH, and high alcohol anything could have happened and probably wouldn't have noticed.

So far the house bug farm is averaging 85% attenuation, so it's quite a beast beast.

I didn't have a pH meter last summer when I brewed, but now I can also check pH reading before/after.

 

[TravelingLight]

No problem at all. I really enjoy chatting about this sort of stuff, so hit me up anytime!

I did not put the wine in along with the beerstix. I just used a pair of tongs to take it out, and put in the bottom of my secondary fermenter. Then I sealed it up, purged the heck out of it with CO2, and transferred over my beer.

I did not have any problems using un-boiled oak, but between the crazy amount of bugs, low pH, and high alcohol anything could have happened and probably wouldn't have noticed.

So far the house bug farm is averaging 85% attenuation, so it's quite a beast beast.

I didn't have a pH meter last summer when I brewed, but now I can also check pH reading before/after.

I have a ph meter, just need to recalibrate it since I haven't had a hydro garden in 2-3 years. I see most people shoot for a ph of like 3.4 to 3.7, but I don't really have a benchmark for how pucker that is. I really think after I calibrate my meter I might check ph on some commercial sours so I can have an idea of how sour a given ph is.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

One thing to keep in mind (and total disclosure, I've not yet moved to taking these types of readings for my beers), is that pH doesn't exactly correlate to how sour/tart a beer is. pH is a measure of how acidic/basic a solution is, the lower the pH indicating a more acidic solution. The problem here is that the different types of souring "bugs" used in beer making produce different types of acid, each of which is perceived as being more/less sour than others when you actually taste them.

For example, Lactobacillus produces lactic acid, acetobacter produces acetic acid and so on.

So you could measure the pH of two different sour beers, they both be the same, but one might taste more/less sour than the other. For this you need to measure Titratable Acidity.

pH represents how much acid is in a solution regardless of how strong it tastes, whereas a titration measures how strong that acid tastes.

This article here has a really good write up on the subject. It's particular to wine, but the same principles apply to beer.

pH is really good though when you are taking measurements from the same beer, or different beers brewed with the same culture.

For example, when taking repeated ratings of a beer during its time in the fermenter, you can be assured that if pH is going down, the beer is souring. Also, from trial and error, I know that when using pure Lacto Plantarum pitches that I like a pH in the 3.2 - 3.3 range for my particular taste.

I've looked into getting a T/A testing kit, but honestly the chemicals scare me a bit.

 

[TravelingLight]

One thing to keep in mind (and total disclosure, I've not yet moved to taking these types of readings for my beers), is that pH doesn't exactly correlate to how sour/tart a beer is. pH is a measure of how acidic/basic a solution is, the lower the pH indicating a more acidic solution. The problem here is that the different types of souring "bugs" used in beer making produce different types of acid, each of which is perceived as being more/less sour than others when you actually taste them.

For example, Lactobacillus produces lactic acid, acetobacter produces acetic acid and so on.

So you could measure the pH of two different sour beers, they both be the same, but one might taste more/less sour than the other. For this you need to measure Titratable Acidity.

pH represents how much acid is in a solution regardless of how strong it tastes, whereas a titration measures how strong that acid tastes.

This article here has a really good write up on the subject. It's particular to wine, but the same principles apply to beer.

pH is really good though when you are taking measurements from the same beer, or different beers brewed with the same culture.

For example, when taking repeated ratings of a beer during its time in the fermenter, you can be assured that if pH is going down, the beer is souring. Also, from trial and error, I know that when using pure Lacto Plantarum pitches that I like a pH in the 3.2 - 3.3 range for my particular taste.

I've looked into getting a T/A testing kit, but honestly the chemicals scare me a bit.

You just blew my mind

That makes total sense, thanks for the heads up. I'm still going to pull my ph meter out of the closet and calibrate it so I can monitor the ph on this sour. But at least now I won't bother with checking ph on some of my commercial bottles.

Man, I'm ready to get this beer brewed so it can go to sleep for some months! But I've got to plan this one out more than my clean beers. Obviously with a clean beer I just need a Saturday or Sunday afternoon to brew it. But I need to schedule this one when I can get the kettle going and let it sit for a day or two to sour but then be ready to brew on once it has soured. I do have a random Tuesday off of work coming up...might be a perfect time to sour on Sunday and brew on Tuesday...

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Haha, happy to blow someone's mind on a Friday morning. FYI though, for these types of quick sour beers, there is no reason to age them for months. They're not going to get any more complex, like a traditional sour beer would, where the brett and pedio can do some wonderful things over time. In fact, with kettle souring, you're killing your lacto, so it's not going to do anything at all post-brew.

For my fermenter sours I generally put them right on tap as soon as I've kegged it, which means grain to glass in as little as 10 days.

 

[TravelingLight]

Haha, happy to blow someone's mind on a Friday morning. FYI though, for these types of quick sour beers, there is no reason to age them for months. They're not going to get any more complex, like a traditional sour beer would, where the brett and pedio can do some wonderful things over time. In fact, with kettle souring, you're killing your lacto, so it's not going to do anything at all post-brew.

For my fermenter sours I generally put them right on tap as soon as I've kegged it, which means grain to glass in as little as 10 days.

I guess I meant since I am fruiting and oaking it, I want to give it a month or so on fruit and oak then check it. Maybe longer maybe not. :rockin:

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot that you were then adding fruit and oak. Please carry on!