PSA: Foolproof Stuck-Ferment-Fixer

[CeeTee]

Question for you all. I have a Marzen that I tried a new yeast with Safbrew33. After pitching, I read it is prone to not finishing. After two days of healthy airlock activity, it stopped at 1.02... 7 points short and it is disgustingly sweet. So I raised temps up to 75 and roused the cake. Still nothing. It's a traditional Marzen ale.

I also have a Hefeweizen bubbling with a WLP380 yeast. My question is, if I pitch the Marzen onto the Hefeweizen yeast cake, will it ruin my Marzen? I mean, I'm pretty sure it will change the flavor, but will it be disgusting? The Marzen is a simple amber color with slight caramel notes and a little roast/chocolate. I used Perle hops to about 25 IBUs. Not sure if this will be good like a Dunkel, or just taste horrible...

 

[IrishBrewer74]

I will be using this method to salvage a confirmed stuck Oktoberfest with Wyeast Kolsch... It petered out at 1.030 (from 1.072). I'll be racking onto a pale ale cake made with Safale 05. Should I cold crash my pale ale first to get a nice yeast cake? My concern is that I will be doing this shortly after the pale ale is done because I have farted around enough with the Oktoberfest i don't want to further risk an infection, and that there won't be much of a yeast cake there to pitch onto.

Would this cause temperature shock to the yeast? I was thinking maybe cold crashing the pale ale, then letting it come back to room temp before racking.

Thoughts?

 

[DeadGuyNick]

Just found this thread and I'm planning on trying it. Got an IPA that is sitting at 1.020 after almost 3 weeks in primary, supposed to be 1.010 according to Brew Smith. The estimated OG was supposed to be around 1.065, but I ended with 1.046. I was thinking of adding honey after fermentation tapered off, but didn't. Not sure if that plays a role in the reading I got.

Anyway, I also brewed a porter that hit the FG pretty spot on, and I used the same yeast for both (WLP001). When I rack the porter off the cake, do I then just add the IPA, or do I need to wash the cake first? I've never done anything like that before.

I just dry hopped yesterday, so the IPA is gonna sit for at least another week, so I can check it again to see if it goes down a bit more. I'm also going to try and raise the temp just a little bit to get those yeast happy. I assume the porter is fine to sit on the cake until then? It's ready to bottle but I want to try and keep that cake in case the IPA is truly stuck.

EDIT: Never mind! I must've missed the post that answered this question. Gonna test my IPA today, it might be fine. Otherwise I'll give it some new life, hopefully.

 

[doublebogey10]

This method certainly makes a ton of sense. To re-ask a question, flavors from first beer's yeast cake don't really impact on the second beer?
I have a brown ale stuck at 1.021 that I used Windsor Ale Yeast (meant to grab Notty -- packages look similar) on. But it's not moving after two weeks.
I have a White IIPA ready to keg that was pretty aggressively hopped (~95 IBUs) that I used US05 on.
So, need to make a decision on adding a new yeast starter to the brown ale and hope that gets it starter. Or rack on top of the White IIPA cake that had a neutral yeast but probably has a strong hop character lurking in the yeast cake that I might not want in the brown. I guess the unknown is how much hop character transference would happen.

 

[brownrice]

Does it have to be a yeast cake? Can I get a bucket of yeast from a local brewery and just pour it in?

 

[Rockn_M]

Does it have to be a yeast cake? Can I get a bucket of yeast from a local brewery and just pour it in?

A bucket maybe a bit much but you can use a pint of yeast slurry or more depending on the OG.


Sent from my kegerator

 

[jamenking]

Sorry gang, but I'm going to make another Frankenstein out of this post...

I have a 5 gal pilsener stuck at 1.020 after 3 wks. OG = 1.056, 1L starter of WLP802 Czech Budejovice, fermented at 52F. 1 wk ago fermentation was slowing, and I raised the temperature to 62F for a diacetyl rest. 3 days ago I poured dry CBC-1 on it, but it hasn't budged.

This might be pushing the limits of "the cake won't affect the flavor," but would anyone dare rack a stuck pils over a dry cider trub? I only ask because I have a primary with Lalvin 71B that has been going strong on some apple juice for the last 2 weeks, and I'm about to rack it to secondary. It would be easy to put the pils on top of the leftover cake... Or would I make apple pilsener?

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry gang, but I'm going to make another Frankenstein out of this post...

I have a 5 gal pilsener stuck at 1.020 after 3 wks. OG = 1.056, 1L starter of WLP802 Czech Budejovice, fermented at 52F. 1 wk ago fermentation was slowing, and I raised the temperature to 62F for a diacetyl rest. 3 days ago I poured dry CBC-1 on it, but it hasn't budged.

This might be pushing the limits of "the cake won't affect the flavor," but would anyone dare rack a stuck pils over a dry cider trub? I only ask because I have a primary with Lalvin 71B that has been going strong on some apple juice for the last 2 weeks, and I'm about to rack it to secondary. It would be easy to put the pils on top of the leftover cake... Or would I make apple pilsener?

Not sure what CBC-1 does. This is from Lallemand's site:

CBC-1 is a killer yeast, meaning it will secrete a toxic protein that can inhibit killer sensitive strains (most brewing strains are killer sensitive). While this is a positive yeast trait when conducting a pure fermentation/refermentation with CBC-1, extra care should be taken to ensure proper cleaning procedures are in place to avoid any cross-contamination with other brews.

The other thing is that most Wine yeasts aren't able to metabolize maltotriose, one of the more difficult sugars to ferment which may be abundant in a stalled fermentation.

 

[rmyurick]

Sorry gang, but I'm going to make another Frankenstein out of this post...

I have a 5 gal pilsener stuck at 1.020 after 3 wks. OG = 1.056, 1L starter of WLP802 Czech Budejovice, fermented at 52F. 1 wk ago fermentation was slowing, and I raised the temperature to 62F for a diacetyl rest. 3 days ago I poured dry CBC-1 on it, but it hasn't budged.

This might be pushing the limits of "the cake won't affect the flavor," but would anyone dare rack a stuck pils over a dry cider trub? I only ask because I have a primary with Lalvin 71B that has been going strong on some apple juice for the last 2 weeks, and I'm about to rack it to secondary. It would be easy to put the pils on top of the leftover cake... Or would I make apple pilsener?

I think I would just keg it as is. You're probably not going to improve it at this point.

 

[jamenking]

I think I would just keg it as is. You're probably not going to improve it at this point.

Bummer. Okay, thanks.

 

[rmyurick]

Bummer. Okay, thanks.

I had a dubbel that finished high, I added some alpha amylase and let it ferment for a while, bottled when I thought it was done. The problem is that it keeps going, slowly. Ended up with gushers, and I think it tasted better when it was sweet. It took away a lot of the maltiness. I bet if you finish that beer now, it's going to be pretty good, even if it didn't hit the numbers.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I just keep a supply of TYB Dry Belgian around. If that can't finish a stuck fermentation I can't imagine that anything outside of Hornindal could. Both are absolute beasts.

 

[jamenking]

Thanks everyone for your replies and encouragement.

Unfortunately this beer is much to sticky sweet for me to enjoy as is... Upon reviewing my notes from brew day I found that the mash temperature was more like 160 F, not the 154 F it should have been. It turnrs out brand new Igloo coolers don't lose much heat in 60 min. So I think we should blame maltotriose for the high SG, and I'm leaning toward playing with fire and pitching some alpha amylase. So as not to overdo it, how much would you add to a 5 gal batch?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Thanks everyone for your replies and encouragement.

Unfortunately this beer is much to sticky sweet for me to enjoy as is... Upon reviewing my notes from brew day I found that the mash temperature was more like 160 F, not the 154 F it should have been. It turnrs out brand new Igloo coolers don't lose much heat in 60 min. So I think we should blame maltotriose for the high SG, and I'm leaning toward playing with fire and pitching some alpha amylase. So as not to overdo it, how much would you add to a 5 gal batch?

Your best hope at this point is to use something like a French saison yeast. From what I've read some saison and Belgian strains are killer neutral and if anything can chomp through leftover sugars it's gonna be that. I wonder if the WLP802 is a saaz yeast, which would mean that it just can't utilize maltotriose.

 

[IslandLizard]

Your best hope at this point is to use something like a French saison yeast. From what I've read some saison and Belgian strains are killer neutral and if anything can chomp through leftover sugars it's gonna be that. I wonder if the WLP802 is a saaz yeast, which would mean that it just can't utilize maltotriose.

To resurrect a stalled fermentation, he would have to make a fairly large active starter and pitch that at high krausen and raise the temps to at least 74F, possibly higher.

On the Saison spectrum, WY3711 or Belle Saison (dry, needs rehydration and a starter) contain Sacch. Cerevisiae var. Diastaticus, a tenacious attenuator to which maltotriose forms little challenge, although dextrins remain Brett and Amylase territory. Still, getting a beer resurrected takes a large active pitch and then patience.

Mash temps at 160F surely create havoc with fermentability. I do Milds in that range, but no good for most beers, especially Lagers.

I never thought of 802 being a Saaz yeast, but now you said it...

 

[jamenking]

Your best hope at this point is to use something like a French saison yeast. From what I've read some saison and Belgian strains are killer neutral and if anything can chomp through leftover sugars it's gonna be that. I wonder if the WLP802 is a saaz yeast, which would mean that it just can't utilize maltotriose.

Thanks for the tip on TYB Dry Belgian. The more I read about amylase the less I like the idea of pitching it because it sounds like I would be asking for exploding bottles in the long run, or too low FG.

Another option I had not thought of - brew a second batch at lower mash temps and let it go to a very low FG, then blend the two to taste. Has anyone tried something like that?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

To resurrect a stalled fermentation, he would have to make a fairly large active starter and pitch that at high krausen and raise the temps to at least 74F, possibly higher.

On the Saison spectrum, WY3711 or Belle Saison (dry, needs rehydration and a starter) contain Sacch. Cerevisiae var. Diastaticus, a tenacious attenuator to which maltotriose forms little challenge, although dextrins remain Brett and Amylase territory. Still, getting a beer resurrected takes a large active pitch and then patience.

Mash temps at 160F surely create havoc with fermentability. I do Milds in that range, but no good for most beers, especially Lagers.

I never thought of 802 being a Saaz yeast, but now you said it...

At the abv he's looking at a large starter isn't needed. Also, by definition a diastatic yeast will take care of most dextrins because they express some form of amylase. More important than pure cell counts is pitching a more robust yeast during active fermentation. I've restarted beers above 10% using some of the more ismotolerant yeasts without doing a giant starter.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Thanks for the tip on TYB Dry Belgian. The more I read about amylase the less I like the idea of pitching it because it sounds like I would be asking for exploding bottles in the long run, or too low FG.

Another option I had not thought of - brew a second batch at lower mash temps and let it go to a very low FG, then blend the two to taste. Has anyone tried something like that?

Too low of an FG can certainly be an issue however it does produce a lot of glycerol like French saison yeast does. If you hadn't pitched some killer yeast I would've suggested using a steam beer yeast or chico. You could certainly blend a bone dry beer into it to help balance things out.

 

[jamenking]

Too low of an FG can certainly be an issue however it does produce a lot of glycerol like French saison yeast does. If you hadn't pitched some killer yeast I would've suggested using a steam beer yeast or chico. You could certainly blend a bone dry beer into it to help balance things out.

A couple hrs ago I cooked up a 2L starter of rehydrated Belle Saison. I will pitch it once it looks really active. I usually cold crash and decant starters so as to just pitch the yeast slurry. Okay in this case?

The website recommends 68F. Any reason to go warmer?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

A couple hrs ago I cooked up a 2L starter of rehydrated Belle Saison. I will pitch it once it looks really active. I usually cold crash and decant starters so as to just pitch the yeast slurry. Okay in this case?

The website recommends 68F. Any reason to go warmer?

That should be perfectly fine.

 

[jamenking]

That should be perfectly fine.

Thanks, let you know how it goes.

 

[jamenking]

Wow you were not kidding - the Belle Saison yeast made quick work of 10 gravity points and dried out this beer quite nicely! This stuff really is a beast - vigorous bubbles in the carboy within an hr of pitching and krausen within a few hrs. 4 days later it is slowing down, and I suspect it will finish around 1.009, which is just perfect. The flavor contribution from the second pitch is pretty minor, and actually I quite like it. Good to learn about the pitfalls of maltotriose as well as a possible fix for future fermentations.

Thanks, HBT!

 

[IslandLizard]

Wow you were not kidding - the Belle Saison yeast made quick work of 10 gravity points and dried out this beer quite nicely! This stuff really is a beast - vigorous bubbles in the carboy within an hr of pitching and krausen within a few hrs. 4 days later it is slowing down, and I suspect it will finish around 1.009, which is just perfect. The flavor contribution from the second pitch is pretty minor, and actually I quite like it. Good to learn about the pitfalls of maltotriose as well as a possible fix for future fermentations.

Thanks, HBT!

Good to hear it worked and Belle was apparently not killed by the CDC-1 proteins! That vitality starter you made surely helped getting her off to a good start.

Just remember, slow and steady fermentations all the way down to final gravity are the best. Anytime you tinker with beer oxygen can get in, potentially oxidizing the beer over time and killing hop flavor and aroma.

Maltotriose is a good sugar, we use her properties to our advantage. The pitfall was likely your high mash temps, along with a few other things that all lined up against a successful finish in the fermentation.

 

[jamenking]

Good to hear it worked and Belle was apparently not killed by the CDC-1 proteins! That vitality starter you made surely helped getting her off to a good start.

Just remember, slow and steady fermentations all the way down to final gravity are the best. Anytime you tinker with beer oxygen can get in, potentially oxidizing the beer over time and killing hop flavor and aroma.

Maltotriose is a good sugar, we use her properties to our advantage. The pitfall was likely your high mash temps, along with a few other things that all lined up against a successful finish in the fermentation.

Are the proteins secreted by killer strains only imparted to the beer if the yeast are actively fermenting or growing? One notable part about pitching the CBC-1 is that literally nothing happened... No visible activity whatsoever. Did they never have the chance to kill because they never woke up?

Thanks for the reminder to not tinker. There has still been plenty of CO2 action so I think I am okay this time.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Are the proteins secreted by killer strains only imparted to the beer if the yeast are actively fermenting or growing? One notable part about pitching the CBC-1 is that literally nothing happened... No visible activity whatsoever. Did they never have the chance to kill because they never woke up?

Thanks for the reminder to not tinker. There has still been plenty of CO2 action so I think I am okay this time.

The toxins are produced while the yeast are metabolically active. Given that there probably wasn't much there for them to eat since CBC-1 can't utilize maltotriose they probably went active for a bit then went dormant.

 

[Rodent]

anybody use this method with a conical instead of carboy or brew bucket?

 

[jakt]

I just revived a stuck Timothy Taylor Landlord clone that was at 1.024 using this method in a stainless steel conical fermentor.
I used the cake from a cwtch clone and the gravity went down to 1.005!
The only issue is that the landlord has picked up a hint of the hop, though i think it's going to be nice.