propane solenoid valve help?

[wardenwheat]

I want to add an automated solenoid valve for my propane burner using a temperature controller to trigger it. I have read a ton of info and it just made me more confused! I have a ranco controller and I need recommendations of what type of valve and equipment I need to set it up.

 

[Brewers Hardware]

You'll probably need to use an ASCO valve, but I don't know which one. Most furnace type valves are designed to work with low-pressure, below 1psi.

I'm assuming you're using HP propane.

 

[wardenwheat]

Yes I use a 20lb propane bottle, so it would be higher pressure than CNG.

 

[Brewers Hardware]

Google ASCO Red Hat valves and find a spec sheet. The valves I'm used to dealing with are designed to work around 11" WC (Water Column).

 

[kladue]

The STC brand solenoid valves are more cost effective than the ASCO's, do a search for STC valves and electric ignition to get some ideas as to the solenoid controlled burner systems built by members. Would advise you to use a safety system with a solenoid controlled burner as a pilot going out and solenoid valve opening could lead to a big blast if a quantity of propane would light off something else in area.

 

[tarheels]

Will this work

STC 2 way N.C. 1/2" solenoid valve air and water - eBay (item 300261249207 end time Feb-20-09 18:01:12 PST)

 

[MNBugeater]

Those look exactly like the ones I use but I don't recall the exact specs. There is a very good thread around here that talks in depth about valves, although if you are confused now...it will likely make you more confused. HA.

I'll find it and update this post...

Edit: (Not being a prick, I know they can be hard to find)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/brutus-ten-44403/
This thread is long, but a very good read.


ASCO and STC are the two commonly used. Both work admirably. Some of the 'debate', for lack of a better term, is that the appropriate valves aren't being used for this specific application. i.e. Water & Air rated valves are being used for gas and a "Use at your own risk" warning has been suggested. Valves that are truely rated for this type of gas application can be costly for a homebrewing environment.

 

[kladue]

Yes these valves will work for both high and low pressure gas systems, when you order them you have 2 choices, 120/60 AC coil if you are not going to use an electric ignition system, or 24/60 ac coil if you are. With the 120/60 AC coil you can use the same 120V power for both ranco and solenoid coil without needing any other power source. Would recommend a pilot or burner flame safety system if you are not willing to watch for a pilot flameout during opration. When used with an electric igniton module the 24/60 AC coil will be connected directly to the ignition module which is powered by a 120/24 VAC transformer.

 

[tarheels]

thanks, i know there is so much information going around the threads about all the different ways to do this.

 

[Figbash]

I would not try to use a temperature controller to operate a gas valve. There are no built in safety features to deal with the possibility of the flame or pilot going out. Just get a gas valve from from an old hot water heater. It will have everything needed to do the job. It will need to be a valve designed for propane, or be able to be converted to propane, or you may need to spring for a new one.

Tom

 

[kladue]

If you are going to use high pressure burners and regulator (10 psi+) then the standing pilot furnace valves are out. Appliance valves are not high enough flow capacity to be usefull and also are limited to low pressure applications. If you have the banjo or hurricane burners there are low pressure jets available for them that will work with low pressure (11") LP or (4"-7")NG and let you use furnace valves or Baso H19 pilot safety valves and solenoids. For high pressure LP there are few choices for safety systems, electric ignition, Baso 19H high pressure model, or a thermocouple safety switch wired in series with solenoid.

 

[MNBugeater]

I would not try to use a temperature controller to operate a gas valve. There are no built in safety features to deal with the possibility of the flame or pilot going out. Just get a gas valve from from an old hot water heater. It will have everything needed to do the job. It will need to be a valve designed for propane, or be able to be converted to propane, or you may need to spring for a new one.

Tom

This is why I also added a pilot safety valve (BASO).

 

[tarheels]

let me see if i have this right. i need a stc / asco valve to be controlled by some type of controller ( i plan to use the BCS-460) a automatic and high Pressure Safety Pilot Valve ( BASO H-15 series) and a pilot light.

 

[MNBugeater]

let me see if i have this right. i need a stc / asco valve to be controlled by some type of controller ( i plan to use the BCS-460) a automatic and high Pressure Safety Pilot Valve ( BASO H-15 series) and a pilot light.

"Need" is the operative word here, but since we are talking about automation, then the two main options that have been discussed and are commonly used are: Pilot light w/ safety shut value OR Electronic ignition (spark)

In my assembly above (standing pilot) the components are as follows from bottom up:

BASO Pilot Safety valve
- 2 peripheral connections are the thermocouple (copper lead) and the pilot light gas feed (aluminum tubing). Thermocouple sits in the pilot light and heats up. If flame is ON, then thermocouple is hot and opens valve providing gas to flow to the next component. If pilot goes out via wind, boil over, etc. then thermocouple cools and shuts gas valve so you don't go BOOM.
Gas Solenoid valve (STC or ASCO or other
This is a normally closed solenoid valve that is controlled via a switch. No different than a toggle switch. But in this case we use the Love Switch that is controlled via a temperature setting. The Loves are technically a switch. I know they are referred to as a controller. But they don't control anything. They simply open or close a circuit based on parameters set to monitor temperature, its a automated switch. Temp gets too low...the 'switch' make contact, closes the circuit which opens the valve allowing gas to flow to burner which in turn is ignited by the pilot light..VWOOOOF !!! Flame On !!

The solenoid valve is wired to your control panel and a toggle switch that controls master power to the swtich. You dont NEED to do it this way, but I like to turn off the power to the solenoid valve and still be able to use the LOVE switch to monitor temps.


Hope that helps...

 

[tarheels]

that helps alot. pictures are worth a thousand words. no time to get the parts together. thanks

 

[ddknight]

Think I asked this question in another thread but thought I might hear something here as well. Would a pilot safety valve like this work for a setup like the one described in this thread?

Baso Gas Pilot Push Button Valve H19AA-4 Safety - eBay (item 330272161953 end time Feb-15-09 04:04:56 PST)

 

[tarheels]

I was looking at the H15 series just because its available in 1/2 in.

 

[davefj40]

"Need" is the operative word here, but since we are talking about automation, then the two main options that have been discussed and are commonly used are: Pilot light w/ safety shut value OR Electronic ignition (spark)

In my assembly above (standing pilot) the components are as follows from bottom up:

BASO Pilot Safety valve
- 2 peripheral connections are the thermocouple (copper lead) and the pilot light gas feed (aluminum tubing). Thermocouple sits in the pilot light and heats up. If flame is ON, then thermocouple is hot and opens valve providing gas to flow to the next component. If pilot goes out via wind, boil over, etc. then thermocouple cools and shuts gas valve so you don't go BOOM.
Gas Solenoid valve (STC or ASCO or other
This is a normally closed solenoid valve that is controlled via a switch. No different than a toggle switch. But in this case we use the Love Switch that is controlled via a temperature setting. The Loves are technically a switch. I know they are referred to as a controller. But they don't control anything. They simply open or close a circuit based on parameters set to monitor temperature, its a automated switch. Temp gets too low...the 'switch' make contact, closes the circuit which opens the valve allowing gas to flow to burner which in turn is ignited by the pilot light..VWOOOOF !!! Flame On !!

The solenoid valve is wired to your control panel and a toggle switch that controls master power to the swtich. You dont NEED to do it this way, but I like to turn off the power to the solenoid valve and still be able to use the LOVE switch to monitor temps.


Hope that helps...

and burner?do you have the part number's for these? part #'s of the pilot assembly?

thanks

dave

 

[philthycoder]

I was looking at the H15 series just because its available in 1/2 in.

Are you keeping an eye on this auction then?

 

[tarheels]

no, it will probally be a couple of weeks or so before i start buying all the items needed to make this happen. its going to add up quick

 

[MNBugeater]

and burner?do you have the part number's for these? part #'s of the pilot assembly?

thanks

dave

DISCLAIMER : I am an not a gas expert. I am not an electrician. I make no claims of a fail safe setup. Build and Use as your own risk !

The burner is really irrelevant. I used the Banjo/Hurricane but any burner will work fine. Just position the pilot light to be directed over an orifice or two so the incoming gas gets lit right away so as to avoid a build up and flash ignition.

As far as the pilot assembly, alot of these are homemade which is fine as long as you position your safety valve thermocouple directly in the flame for safety. I used a Honeywell assembly that had the pilot orifice and thermocouple housing all in one. The thermocouples are usually sold separately.

These appear to be the part numbers everyone is PMing me about so Ill put them here, but really it doesn't matter. There are several varieties available.

Pilot Thermocouple - Honeywell Q340A1108
Pilot Burner - Honeywell Q314A4586
Solenoid Valve - STC 2W160-10
Pilot Safety Valve - BASO H19AL-1

My valves are 3/8". If you are using or want 1/2" the part numbers are slightly different.

 

[davefj40]

so is LP propane less then 10#? is that what you buy the regulator on morebeer to convert the grill tank's down to pressure you can use these valve's for?

dave

 

[wardenwheat]

Why can't you just use a LP furnace valve that handles higher pressures? Seems a lot simpler to me if you have the valve and pilot and safety controller all in one module.

 

[davefj40]

there are dual pilot valves that have the gas valve and pilot valve in one but they are LP or NG, i don't know if they can handle 10-20# that a standard grill tank has. if you look at morebeer's site it say's LP propane is for the huge tank's that feed a house. so that's what i'm wondering about a different regulator that has to be used.

i can buy all this stuff at wholesale but i don't really use it that much so i'm not sure what to get.

 

[kladue]

There are 2 types of regulators for LP systems, the high pressure type (10 - 30 PSI) found on the turkey fryer setups, and the low pressure type (11" wc /.4 PSI) found on BBq's, propane appliances, RV's. The automatic gas valves for heating applications are usually deisgned for 1/2 psi or less and if more than that is applied they usually refuse to open to prevent nasty and noisy suprises if the upstream regulator fails. This is why when you want to use the high pressure burners and want a safety system it usually is cheaper to go the electric ignition route as a suitable high pressure pilot safety valve is around $200 new. When you look for a regulator you need to add up the btu's of the burners that will be in operation at the same time and purchase a regulator able to deliver the same BTU's or greater. You could buy one larger regulator and build a low pressure manifold, or buy individual regulators for each burner and use a 10 psi regulator and manifold to feed the individual regulators.

 

[davefj40]

i'm starting from scratch so that's why i'm trying to figure out what to buy. i want to up LP with a standard 20# tank and i'm trying to figure out what to buy. i know you can find the dual pilot valve's on ebay for around 40-70 dollar's which is no problem. just trying to figure out the regulator/burner setup that goes with those valves.

thanks everybody for all the help so far, the automated side is the easy part as i do automated building's for a living.

dave

 

[kladue]

Look at the various systems built with the Banjo/Hurricane burners, these seem to be the best for turn down and can be jetted for either high or low pressure feed. As to a regulator add up the btu ratings on the burners that will operate at the same time and look for a 2 stage low pressure regulator with equal or higher rating. You might be able to find one at a RV parts house locally or shop on line if not in a hurry. Check out MnBugeaters system as that and others have already done the hard work of finding and fitting the necessary parts for an automated system.
Which of product lines do you work with for building automation, my field is primarily industrial automation calibration and installation with occasional building control equipment installation.

 

[davefj40]

right now i'm working with Automated Logic but have worked with Alerton, Andover, Johnson and Honeywell. with KMC and Delta thrown in here and there. really liking the Automated product though.

thanks for the help, will search for the stuff you suggested.

dave

 

[davefj40]

hey Kladue, how about this setup.

http://www.iaqwholesale.com/manuals...tion/InterPilotRetroKits/hw_Y8610/68-0102.pdf

it's all in one for electronic ignition and dual action valve. now for this i would have to run LP burner's and reg's right?

dave

 

[kladue]

yes that would work if you used the LP version you would need the low pressure regulator and low pressure orifices for the burners.