Problems with too high efficiency?

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Yesterday, I brewed a slightly modified version of Biermuncher's Cream of Three Crops, intending to reach a target OG of about 1.040 for 5.5 gallons. Instead, I ended up with 5.8 gallons of 1.044 wort. Prior to adding top-off water, I had 5.1 gallons and a gravity of 1.050! This is, like, 88% efficiency.

That to me raises worries about my process. Are there problems with practices that might lead to this efficiency?

Here's what I do:

1. I treat my water. In this case, I used distilled water dilution and added back in minerals to reach a very soft water profile. I use Bru'n water to figure out what I need to add for acid additions to both my sparge and my mash.

2. I heat 1.5 quarts of water per pound to my strike temperature. I usually use a calculator to estimate strike temperature, or just add 12F to my intended mash temp. In this case, my strike water was 160F for a mash temperature of 148F. I missed it by 1, so the dough-in was at 149F. (This is probably within the range of error for my thermometer.)

3. I mash with the kettle covered for however long I want to mash. In this case, I wanted a highly attenuable wort, so I mashed for 90 minutes. My temperature remains remarkably stable. Every once in a while I heat the kettle on low while stirring for a few minutes. I know I could use boiling water instead, but I really don't think I'm scorching any grains with the heating method. I also don't need to do it very much.

4. I prepare another 1.5 quarts of water of suitable pH for sparging per pound of grain in a separate container. I heat it to about 170F.

5. When the mash is up, I lift the bag, and I squeeze quite a bit. Then, I put the bag in my sparge container and stir it. I usually leave the sparge container uncovered and sparge for 20-30 minutes.

6. I lift the bag from the sparge and squeeze quite a lot of that as well, then I dump the sparge water in the kettle and add water to reach my target boil size.

I still don't know a ton about mash science. I thought I was following best practices by not using too much water and paying attention to the pH to avoid tannins. But maybe I'm over sparging or something? I thought I'd seek feedback.

 

[botigol]

Sorry if I missed it, but are there any issues with the aroma or flavor? If the only issue is higher than expected extraction, wait and see if it continues with your next couple of batches. If so, adjust your recipes going forward. If not, it was just an aberration and nothing to be concerned about.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yesterday, I brewed a slightly modified version of Biermuncher's Cream of Three Crops, intending to reach a target OG of about 1.040 for 5.5 gallons. Instead, I ended up with 5.8 gallons of 1.044 wort. Prior to adding top-off water, I had 5.1 gallons and a gravity of 1.050! This is, like, 88% efficiency.

That to me raises worries about my process. Are there problems with practices that might lead to this efficiency?

Here's what I do:

1. I treat my water. In this case, I used distilled water dilution and added back in minerals to reach a very soft water profile. I use Bru'n water to figure out what I need to add for acid additions to both my sparge and my mash.

2. I heat 1.5 quarts of water per pound to my strike temperature. I usually use a calculator to estimate strike temperature, or just add 12F to my intended mash temp. In this case, my strike water was 160F for a mash temperature of 148F. I missed it by 1, so the dough-in was at 149F. (This is probably within the range of error for my thermometer.)

3. I mash with the kettle covered for however long I want to mash. In this case, I wanted a highly attenuable wort, so I mashed for 90 minutes. My temperature remains remarkably stable. Every once in a while I heat the kettle on low while stirring for a few minutes. I know I could use boiling water instead, but I really don't think I'm scorching any grains with the heating method. I also don't need to do it very much.

4. I prepare another 1.5 quarts of water of suitable pH for sparging per pound of grain in a separate container. I heat it to about 170F.

5. When the mash is up, I lift the bag, and I squeeze quite a bit. Then, I put the bag in my sparge container and stir it. I usually leave the sparge container uncovered and sparge for 20-30 minutes.

6. I lift the bag from the sparge and squeeze quite a lot of that as well, then I dump the sparge water in the kettle and add water to reach my target boil size.

I still don't know a ton about mash science. I thought I was following best practices by not using too much water and paying attention to the pH to avoid tannins. But maybe I'm over sparging or something? I thought I'd seek feedback.

Mashing too efficiently does not constitute a brewing problem, it just means your process works well.

As stated above, just adjust your recipe for next time. I suspect the higher efficiency was because of the extended mash and sparge (both of which can boost efficiency for BIAB). This is a good "problem" to have.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Thanks. That's what I hoped. I've just run across forum posts here and there that complain about astringency when having too much efficiency for BIAB. I wasn't sure if I was extracting the gunk along with the sugars from the malt.

I've had high efficiency in the past, but I've attributed that to inaccurate measurement. Some of those beers occasionally have off flavors, but I'm not sure they're harsh so much as too malty.

 

[rhys333]

I agree with the other posters, and you already know to look for astringency so I would say you're good. If you do get any more of those off-flavors though (or if you're finding it hard to control body), then you might look at reducing your sparge time, and squeezing a bit less. Sounds like you have it nailed though.

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree with the other posters, and you already know to look for astringency so I would say you're good. If you do get any more of those off-flavors though (or if you're finding it hard to control body), then you might look at reducing your sparge time, and squeezing a bit less. Sounds like you have it nailed though.

Minor correction, squeezing doesn't affect extraction efficiency, just water loss to the grain.

Factors that affect extraction efficiency are:

Mash temp
Mash pH
Mash length
Grain crush
Agitation during mash (thoroughness of grain contact with water)
Sparge water contact time with grain bed

I once argued that it did and was proved wrong by both theory and experimental results. I can take the time to dig up that conversation if you'd like the details, also Kai Troester has a thorough review of efficiency on his website.



EDIT: I dug up the thread where I learned about it https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=569802&page=5

 

[mabrungard]

I've found that high efficiency means that there is a higher potential for tannin and silicate extraction which creates astringency problems in beer. My system can be coaxed to as much as 92% efficiency and my beers suffered for it. I now purposely target lower efficiency to avoid that problem. I reserve about 1/3 of my sparging water volume and DON'T put it through the grain bed. I also target a final runnings gravity between 3 and 5 brix. I top off the kettle to my required pre-boil volume with any of the reserved sparging water. These procedures have removed that astringency problem from my beers.

 

[rhys333]

Minor correction, squeezing doesn't affect extraction efficiency, just water loss to the grain.

Factors that affect extraction efficiency are:

Mash temp
Mash pH
Mash length
Grain crush
Agitation during mash (thoroughness of grain contact with water)
Sparge water contact time with grain bed

I once argued that it did and was proved wrong by both theory and experimental results. I can take the time to dig up that conversation if you'd like the details, also Kai Troester has a thorough review of efficiency on his website.

Interesting, though I should point out my comment about squeezing was targeted towards off-flavors and brewhouse efficiency. I hadn't thought about extraction efficiency, but yeah, it makes sense that this wouldn't be affected if the sugars remains constant, regardless if a brewer squeeze out, say, 3 gallons or 3.5. The OP's 5.8 gallons @ 1.044, if I'm assuming correctly, would be taken from the fermentor and correspond to brewhouse efficiency which is affected by squeezing. Confusing stuff!

 

[TheMadKing]

Interesting, though I should point out my comment about squeezing was targeted towards off-flavors and brewhouse efficiency. I hadn't thought about extraction efficiency, but yeah, it makes sense that this wouldn't be affected much if the sugar water concentration remains constant, regladless if a brewer squeeze out, say, 3 gallons or 3.5. The OP's 5.8 gallons @ 1.044, if I'm assuming correctly, would be taken from the fermentor and correspond to brewhouse efficiency, which is afffected by squeezing. Confusing stuff!

Whoops I misunderstood! Confusing indeed. Sorry about that, and yes BH efficiency takes into account volumes of liquid lost throughout the brewing process, so squeezing definitely affects it!

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

The OP's 5.8 gallons @ 1.044, if I'm assuming correctly, would be taken from the fermentor and correspond to brewhouse efficiency which is affected by squeezing.

It is taken from the fermenter. I meant brewhouse efficiency.

Possible complication: That 5.8 gallons includes all of the break material and hop sludge. I've always had good results dumping it all in and letting it compress.

 

[doug293cz]

Minor correction, squeezing doesn't affect extraction efficiency, just water loss to the grain.

Factors that affect extraction efficiency are:

Mash temp
Mash pH
Mash length
Grain crush
Agitation during mash (thoroughness of grain contact with water)
Sparge water contact time with grain bed

I once argued that it did and was proved wrong by both theory and experimental results. I can take the time to dig up that conversation if you'd like the details, also Kai Troester has a thorough review of efficiency on his website.



EDIT: I dug up the thread where I learned about it https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=569802&page=5

What is your definition of "Extraction Efficiency"? The most common definitions used in homebrewing (that match up with what BeerSmith and BrewersFriend use) are:
Conversion Efficiency: The actual amount of sugar created in the mash divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill.
Lauter Efficiency: The amount of sugar that makes it into your boil kettle divided by the amount of sugar that was created in the mash.
Mash Efficiency: a.k.a. Pre-Boil Efficiency (BrewersFriend). The amount of sugar that makes it into your boil kettle divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill. Mash Efficiency equals Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency.
Transfer Efficiency: The amount of sugar in your fermenter divided by the amount of sugar in your boil kettle. Also equal to the fermenter volume divided by the post-boil volume.
Brewhouse Efficiency: The amount of sugar that makes it into your fermenter divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill. Brewhouse Efficiency equals Mash Efficiency times Transfer Efficiency. Also equals Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency times Transfer Efficiency.

Brew on

 

[TheMadKing]

What is your definition of "Extraction Efficiency"? The most common definitions used in homebrewing (that match up with what BeerSmith and BrewersFriend use) are:

Conversion Efficiency: The actual amount of sugar created in the mash divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill.

Lauter Efficiency: The amount of sugar that makes it into your boil kettle divided by the amount of sugar that was created in the mash.

Mash Efficiency: a.k.a. Pre-Boil Efficiency (BrewersFriend). The amount of sugar that makes it into your boil kettle divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill. Mash Efficiency equals Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency.

Transfer Efficiency: The amount of sugar in your fermenter divided by the amount of sugar in your boil kettle. Also equal to the fermenter volume divided by the post-boil volume.

Brewhouse Efficiency: The amount of sugar that makes it into your fermenter divided by the potential amount of sugar in the grain bill. Brewhouse Efficiency equals Mash Efficiency times Transfer Efficiency. Also equals Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency times Transfer Efficiency.



Brew on

Thanks Doug! I was referring to conversion efficiency. Apologies for the inexact terminology.

In your definitions, lauter efficiency also takes into account grain absorption too so the volume of water also matters. I was forgetting that in another thread and had to correct myself there.

 

[doug293cz]

Minor correction, squeezing doesn't affect extraction efficiency, just water loss to the grain.

Factors that affect extraction efficiency are:

Mash temp
Mash pH
Mash length
Grain crush
Agitation during mash (thoroughness of grain contact with water)
Sparge water contact time with grain bed

I once argued that it did and was proved wrong by both theory and experimental results. I can take the time to dig up that conversation if you'd like the details, also Kai Troester has a thorough review of efficiency on his website.



EDIT: I dug up the thread where I learned about it https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=569802&page=5

Since you clarified that by "Extraction Efficiency" you meant "Conversion Efficiency" then you are mostly correct.

Sparge water contact time will only affect conversion efficiency if the conversion was incomplete (conv eff less than 100%) at the start of the sparge. In the case of incomplete conversion, then longer sparge times are effectively longer mash times, unless a mash out has been done, or cold sparge water is used.

Another factor that affects conversion rate, and therefor conversion efficiency, if mash time is too short, is mash thickness (qt/lb or L/kg.) Kai Troester has shown that thin mashes convert faster than thick mashes.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks Doug! I was referring to conversion efficiency. Apologies for the inexact terminology.

In your definitions, lauter efficiency also takes into account grain absorption too so the volume of water also matters. I was forgetting that in another thread and had to correct myself there.

Yes, lauter efficiency is entirely determined by real (as opposed to apparent) grain absorption plus MLT undrainable volume times the concentration of retained wort at the end of all sparges (if any.) Real grain absorption is higher than apparent grain absorption because the total volume of wort in the MLT is higher than the strike volume or sparge volume. So, in the calculations real absorption needs to be determined.

Brew on

 

[bleme]

I squeeze/sparge/squeeze like you and hit 88% efficiency regularly. I'm pretty sure that is where your efficiency "problem" is coming from.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

OP here. Thanks for the feedback.

So here's a related question. Say I were to buy an all-grain recipe kit from a retailer. If my BH efficiency is higher than normal, then won't the kit be off? What's the best way, given my process (mash -> squeeze -> sparge -> squeeze), to get efficiency more similar to what the kit assumes? Or should I even worry about that?

 

[bleme]

You could squeeze less, but I wouldn't worry about it unless you are really set on cloning a beer. I've done a few batches with that focus but most of the time I just want something good in my fridge.

 

[doug293cz]

OP here. Thanks for the feedback.

So here's a related question. Say I were to buy an all-grain recipe kit from a retailer. If my BH efficiency is higher than normal, then won't the kit be off? What's the best way, given my process (mash -> squeeze -> sparge -> squeeze), to get efficiency more similar to what the kit assumes? Or should I even worry about that?

You could scale the grain bill based on the ratio of the recipe's assumed efficiency and your typical efficiency. Only issue is what to do with the bits of leftover grain.

EDIT: Or, you could scale the batch size by the ratio of your typical efficiency and the recipe's efficiency.

Brew on

 

[wilserbrewer]

You can make the recipes volume a little stronger w more alcohol, make more beer by volume, or remove some grain from the kit.