Problems Brewing with Wheat

[HopTrap]

I have brewed several AG beers now and all had been comprised of only malted Barley. I recently went on a weizen kick and made a Hefe, a Dunkle, and a weizenbock. All three missed OG, some more than others. My hefe came in at 1.043, the Dunkle 44, and the bock at 44. This is killing me because I have not traditionally had any issues hitting OG.

I use a single infusion mash and for the Hefe and dunkle mashed at 152 for 60 minutes. For the weizen bock I mashed at 154 for 90 minutes. I mash at around 1.5:1. Could anyone possibly give me a clue? All I can think of is that I am doing something wrong with the wheat. Here is my weizenbick recipe that I made on Ed's Brewbuilder. It should have come out in the 1.08 area, but was 1.044. Any ideas?


1 Wyeast Labs Weihenstephan Weizen, 3068
6lbs Caramel Vienne
1lbs Caramel Munich
8lbs Weyermann Dark Wheat
1 Target, German Pellets - 1 oz, Mainly Bittering Hop 8.6% AA

 

[The Pol]

Many AG'ers have reported missing thier OGs by up to 10% when they use a single infusion(step) mash. You may want to try step mashing with the wheat, I have never had an eff. issue when doing so, it seems to alleviate the eff. problem for many of us.

WOAH, you missed it by 36 points??? Okay, I have no clue as to what would do that, I can see missing it by 7-8 points, but 36????? Dang, dunno, that is like 43% eff. Was the grain crushed?

 

[enderwig]

Am I reading that right? Is that 7 lbs of Caramel malts?

 

[Yooper]

Am I reading that right? Is that 7 lbs of Caramel malts?

That's what jumped out at me, too. Did you really only use 8 pounds of base malt? If you did, 1.044 or so sounds about right.

 

[The Pol]

That's what jumped out at me, too. Did you really only use 8 pounds of base malt? If you did, 1.044 or so sounds about right.

See, I punched this into ProMash and it came out at 1.080 at about 75% eff. Why would the OG be affected to such a large degree? There arent enough enzymes to convert the malts?

 

[wehumble]

Could it be the crush on the wheat? I single infusion mash weizens with no gravity problems, but I run the wheat through the Barley Crusher twice; once by itself and once with the barley. I read (somewhere here on HBT) that double crushing wheat helped with efficiency and eliminated changing gap settings on the mill.

Any lautering problems? Rice hulls are your friend when you're making weizens.

 

[Yooper]

See, I punched this into ProMash and it came out at 1.080 at about 75% eff. Why would the OG be affected to such a large degree? There arent enough enzymes to convert the malts?

Wheat malt is much lower in diastatic power than two-row. It can convert itself, but not much more. If it truly is "dark wheat", then it has a diastatic power of 10ish and can't even fully convert itself. ("Regular" wheat malt is in the 70-90 range). Two-row has what? A diastatic power of about 140?

From Northern Brewer's website: Weyermann Dark Wheat. 7.5° L. Use up to 50% for dark wheat beers, weizenbocks, or in smaller proportions to add body and head retention to other dark ales. Include a protein rest in your mash schedule when using this grain.

My guess is that there wasn't enough base malt to convert, that's why there was such a low OG.

I think the recipe is at fault here- that's a boatload of crystal. Did you mean to use Vienna malt and Munich malts, instead of crystal Munich and crystal Vienna? Those names are very confusing.

 

[EdWort]

Could it be the crush on the wheat? I single infusion mash weizens with no gravity problems, but I run the wheat through the Barley Crusher twice; once by itself and once with the barley. I read (somewhere here on HBT) that double crushing wheat helped with efficiency and eliminated changing gap settings on the mill.

Any lautering problems? Rice hulls are your friend when you're making weizens.

+1. Wheat kernels are smaller than barley, so you need to adjust. I have no problem hitting 80% on my Bavarian Hefe. It got to the point where I had to reduce my grain bill since they were finishing out at 6.3+% abv.

 

[QueenCityALER]

I agree that your problem lies in your recipe and your mash technique. On some of these specialty malts it pays to do a bit of research into thier chemical properties... Especially in the 50% range!! I also agree that I was shocked to see CARA- before both the munich and vienna. That's a ton bud. But, to each thier own. FWIW, you have my thoughts. Good luck!

 

[HopTrap]

Thanks for all the input guys. I am not too sure of the differences between Crystal and Cara malts so I should do some reading there apparently. I am for all intents and purposes only six months into AG brewing so I have much to learn. The whole recipe was built on the brew builder at BMW and crushed by the store. The builder gave me the same results that "The Pol" came up with in Pro mash.

I used the amount of wheat because the BJCP said at least 50% and I think this works out to about 53%. The guidelines also indicated that the rest should be Munich and Vienna malts. Apparently I chose the wrong types of those?

Thank you again. If there is anything more let me know as I am eager to learn more!


From the BJCP

Ingredients: A high percentage of malted wheat is used (by
German law must be at least 50%, although it may contain up
to 70%), with the remainder being Munich- and/or Vienna type
barley malts.

 

[HopTrap]

I think the recipe is at fault here- that's a boatload of crystal. Did you mean to use Vienna malt and Munich malts, instead of crystal Munich and crystal Vienna? Those names are very confusing.

When I go to BMW there are no base malts listed as vienna or munich, the only place I could find malts with those names was under caramel malts. What else should I be looking for?

 

[AnOldUR]

When I go to BMW there are no base malts listed as vienna or munich, the only place I could find malts with those names was under caramel malts. What else should I be looking for?

Look under Highly Kilned Malts.

 

[HopTrap]

Wheat malt is much lower in diastatic power than two-row. It can convert itself, but not much more. If it truly is "dark wheat", then it has a diastatic power of 10ish and can't even fully convert itself. ("Regular" wheat malt is in the 70-90 range). Two-row has what? A diastatic power of about 140?

From Northern Brewer's website: Weyermann Dark Wheat. 7.5° L. Use up to 50% for dark wheat beers, weizenbocks, or in smaller proportions to add body and head retention to other dark ales. Include a protein rest in your mash schedule when using this grain.

My guess is that there wasn't enough base malt to convert, that's why there was such a low OG.

I think the recipe is at fault here- that's a boatload of crystal. Did you mean to use Vienna malt and Munich malts, instead of crystal Munich and crystal Vienna? Those names are very confusing.

So that I am clear. The diastatic power is the ability to convert the sugars?

 

[The Pol]

Yah, Yooper is right... didnt catch that off the bat. There is probably not enough diastic power there to convert those sugars. You can get VIENNA and MUNICH malt... CARAmunich and CARAvienna are completely different beasts.

In Papazians The Homebrewers Companion, it goes into great detail about diastic power and lists the diastic power of many different malts, so that you can see what malts require more enzymes and which have a surplus of enzymes.

The science behind AG brewing is important for this reason... I have never seen nor brewed anything with LESS than 40% BASE malt, so I have not run into this issue before.

 

[AnOldUR]

Was it mentioned that even if he did get conversion, that's a ton of unfermentable sugar?

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, sorry to say it but it's not a good recipe. All that crystal will make the beer largely unfermentable and cloyingly sweet. I'm guessing that 7 pounds of crystal was a mistake, and it should have been Vienna malt and Munich malt.

Still, it's worth waiting to see what happens. I sure hope I'm wrong, and the beer turns out great.

 

[The Pol]

Was it mentioned that even if he did get conversion, that's a ton of unfermentable sugar?

It wasnt, but I am sure we are all thinking the same thing... this is ANOTHER issue with this recipe.

 

[The Pol]

I have brewed several AG beers now and all had been comprised of only malted Barley. I recently went on a weizen kick and made a Hefe, a Dunkle, and a weizenbock. All three missed OG, some more than others. My hefe came in at 1.043, the Dunkle 44, and the bock at 44. This is killing me because I have not traditionally had any issues hitting OG.

I use a single infusion mash and for the Hefe and dunkle mashed at 152 for 60 minutes. For the weizen bock I mashed at 154 for 90 minutes. I mash at around 1.5:1. Could anyone possibly give me a clue? All I can think of is that I am doing something wrong with the wheat. Here is my weizenbick recipe that I made on Ed's Brewbuilder. It should have come out in the 1.08 area, but was 1.044. Any ideas?


1 Wyeast Labs Weihenstephan Weizen, 3068
6lbs Caramel Vienne
1lbs Caramel Munich
8lbs Weyermann Dark Wheat
1 Target, German Pellets - 1 oz, Mainly Bittering Hop 8.6% AA

You mention THREE wheat brews, care to post the recipes for the others and by what margin you missed the OG?