Problem with second runnings?

[Sir Humpsalot]

Well, I got my first infected batch a few weeks ago. It was the second runnings from my ESB. I had siphoned off the first beer, given the kettle a quick water only rinse... there was still a bunch of crud around the edges from a slight boil over... and I brewed the second beer... 1 hour boil. I also ran my wort chiller outside, just as I had for the first batch. I also siphoned the wort from the kettle to the carboy, it's not like I was pouring over the lip. I was a chilly day though and I use an aluminum turkey fryer.

My question is whether it's generally a bad idea to brew in a dirty pot. I mean, I gave it a quick rinse, but I didn't really put any effort into it beyond being sure to rinse out the trub. And wouldn't you know it? The beer got infected.


So did I do something wrong? Or should I just chalk it up as being "one of those things..."?

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I don't see how that could have infected the beer. The pot gets hot.

 

[EvilTOJ]

Infection would have more to do with your fermenting tank rather than the boiling procedure.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I don't see how that could have infected the beer. The pot gets hot.

Yeah, that's what I think too.. it's just kind of an odd batch to have go infected.. sort of a strange coincidence. I'm just seeing what other people think..

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

You may have gotten some bacteria in that siphon house, you did use it twice that day. Perhaps the wind blew something in?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I use an aluminum turkey fryer.

Toot,

Have you used the aluminum pot much? My Beer for Dummies books says no aluminum pots or lesser grade steel pots. Claiming they give off a metallic taste.

Stainless is recommended, as a substitute an enamel-ware pot or a canning pot will work, however no chips in the enamel.

Please describe the defect by smell and taste.

You can also find the defect in how to brew.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Metallic
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours.​

This is what was said about aluminum in "How To Brew".

Try picking up a good stainless steel pot.

Let us know if you think its something other than this. I have a strong hunch that this is a factor.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

It's not metallic.. more like bandaids.. lots and lots of bandaids. A bandaid factory.

 

[Beerrific]

Aluminum will not cause an infection.

 

[Dude]

It's not metallic.. more like bandaids.. lots and lots of bandaids. A bandaid factory.

I'd throw out all of your hoses and make a double dose of star-san and soak every piece of equipment you own in it. You've got something funky going on in all of your equipment post boil.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Made two batches since. One tastes absolutely great and will be bottled in a day or two. The other one is in primary and smells fine.


I forgot to mention that the bad batch didn't start fermenting for about 3 days. I finally made a starter and pitched it after I saw no activity in the first 24 hours.


Could lack of fermentation also be a sign of an infection? Maybe a microbial battle being waged for the hearts and minds of the wort?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Do you use bleach?

Medicinal
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.​

This is an excerpt from the same "how to brew" link

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

No bleach. StarSan for soaking, Iodine for bottles and carboys.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'm outa ideas....I feel your pain though.

I have a batch that tastes metalic from a metal strainer falling to the carboy off the funnel. My lazy a$$ thought it'd be ok since I thought it was stainless. It could not have been, probably mild steel.

I'm PO'd at myself. This is a good reason to keep notes and learn about your mistakes.

Hopefully this is the last for awhile for both of us....

Drink the good ones you have and put this behind you.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Bandaids is usually a chlorine thing. Your water supply hasn't switched to chloramine have they? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine

It it's chlorine based but doesn't boil off like chlorine and will phenol up your brew.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Bandaids is usually a chlorine thing. Your water supply hasn't switched to chloramine have they? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine

It it's chlorine based but doesn't boil off like chlorine and will phenol up your brew.

That's good information.. but remember... these were second runnings... and it didn't affect the first batch. The only thing that was different, batch to batch, was the uncleaned pot. I'm wondering whether the lip of the kettle really gets hot enough to kill the bacteria.. I think it does...

 

[Schlenkerla]

Good point (About the water) - You can buy bottled water pretty cheap if this is the case.

 

[Schlenkerla]

If its not the kettle then maybe its left over sanitizer in the fermentor....

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

If its not the kettle then maybe its left over sanitizer in the fermentor....

I believe its either the kettle or wild yeasts from outdoor wort chilling.

 

[Schlenkerla]

If you think its the chiller, maybe the chiller leaked water into the pot.

That being chlorinated water...

I'd think its something other than wild yeast from the flavor/flaw description in Palmers HTB.

 

[casebrew]

I forgot to mention that the bad batch didn't start fermenting for about 3 days. I finally made a starter and pitched it after I saw no activity in the first 24 hours.


Could lack of fermentation also be a sign of an infection? Maybe a microbial battle being waged for the hearts and minds of the wort?

I think the delayed start is the key here. Not as a sign of infection, but as a lag time allowing the germs that are in every batch to get started. Big starters get the yeast going fully, putting off CO2 as well as alcohol, and preventing the wild beasties from competing.

Hey, would you eat potato salad that has been sitting out for three days, or would you supect infections?

 

[olllllo]

I think the delayed start is the key here. Not as a sign of infection, but as a lag time allowing the germs that are in every batch to get started. Big starters get the yeast going fully, putting off CO2 as well as alcohol, and preventing the wild beasties from competing.

Hey, would you eat potato salad that has been sitting out for three days, or would you supect infections?

ITA^^^^^^^

 

[Nexus555]

I personally feel it's either

a.) Reusing the siphoning hose. The delay could have easily blew in some bacteria

b.) Leaking wort chiller

c.) POSSIBLY some airborn infection from doing outside (don't know about this though)

d.) Something falling into the fermenter after sanitation.

That's my 2 cents. It's 100% surely not the pot, because if you boiled again, it would have eliminated any bacteria.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Hey, would you eat potato salad that has been sitting out for three days, or would you supect infections?

No infections just a lot of reverse drinking and hershey squirts!

Yes a culmination of several things could have done this. I really think falling back on the description of the off taste should point to the root cause.

• There is a high probably that chlorine got into this. - Possibly a leaky chiller or residual sanitizer in the fermentor.
  
• Slow start of the yeast allowed the nasties to get jump started.
  
• Aluminum Pot: Rinsing the top rim & using stainless over aluminum.

Seriously, get yourself a new pot as soon as you can afford one. I'd hate to see equipment cause another issue. See if you can get a spigot on the bottom.

Does your chiller hose-to-tube fittings hang over the side of the pot? If they leak is it on the counter or pavement and not into the pot?

I also keep a 12' roll of 3/8" hose on hand, if the hose is getting nasty I pitch it out and grab another section of hose.

Have a Good Easter!!!!

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

The three common bacterias do not make a bandaid taste. Thats a phenol. Are you sure its bandaid tatsing? What temp did you ferment at and what was the yeast?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

The three common bacterias do not make a bandaid taste. Thats a phenol. Are you sure its bandaid tatsing? What temp did you ferment at and what was the yeast?

fermented at 65-68. The first yeast was uhhhh... an English Ale strain from white labs. The repitch with starter was a Wyeast Scottish Ale with starter.

 

[turfguy1969]

http://sfwater.org/Files/FAQs/WQ_chlora_QA_2007-5.pdf

so i'm having the same problems with off (medicinal)flavors in both of the first two all grain mashes that i've made this summer. we are having a horrible drought and i am assuming the treated water supply is running low of fresh water this summer. if you read the document it says that chloramine can be removed by boiling or carbon bed filtration. then why do breweries who boil the product need special attention?? All i can figure is that the mash liquor and the sparge water must be free of this as well?? please let's revisit the topic.

Can a point of use carbon filter be enough for my water to clarify it of chloramine for my all grain or not??

 

[Yooper]

Well, boiling does NOT get rid of chloramine. I've read that a campden tablet in about 10 gallons of water does get rid of it, but I don't know that for a fact. I don't know about the carbon filter, but I would think it would work. Edwort (I think) uses a RV filter for his water and claims it works well.

 

[sudbuster]

Well, boiling does NOT get rid of chloramine. I've read that a campden tablet in about 10 gallons of water does get rid of it, but I don't know that for a fact. I don't know about the carbon filter, but I would think it would work. Edwort (I think) uses a RV filter for his water and claims it works well.

IMHO, the best eliminater of chloramine is Activated Silver Impregnated Charcoal. Sometimes called Chlorgon, this adds chloramine exclusion and bacteria killing ability to the basic carbon. These filter elements can be obtained from HD or Lowes etc.
Camden tabs.(sodium metisulphate) is a fermentation inhibiter. Enough of it will stop fermintation cold. FWIW, i don't think i need that.......

 

[CBBaron]

Camden tabs.(sodium metisulphate) is a fermentation inhibiter. Enough of it will stop fermintation cold. FWIW, i don't think i need that.......

I use one Campden tablet to remove chlorine from my brewing water and I've not had any problem with the yeast fermenting. At that level it quickly removes chlorine but has little effect on the yeast.
Craig

 

[boo boo]

I use one Campden tablet to remove chlorine from my brewing water and I've not had any problem with the yeast fermenting. At that level it quickly removes chlorine but has little effect on the yeast.
Craig

Yeah, me too. But I add the campton to a measured amount of water to disolve it and then measure some into my water containers. I figure about 1/2 of the tablet gets used in a single brew.