Probiotics VS Ale Yeast in Apple Juice

[brewit75]

So, I decided to experiment a bit...

I bought 2 bottles of apple juice, each 32oz bottles with no preservatives. I first measured the gravity (see pictures) and both came out the same.

I then added a capsule of the probiotics to one (the top marked "P") and then added the same amount of Safale S05 to the second (the top marked "S"). I just opened the capsule and poured out the probiotic powder. Threw away the empty capsule.

I know that both are very active. I have another 1 gallon of apple juice going with a half pack of the S05.

As for the probiotics, I added a capsule to a glass of whole milk and had yogurt within 8hrs.

Any predictions about what the probiotics will do in apple juice? They are the strongest I've seen and have 25 Billion colony forming units per capsule.

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[Melou]

HAHA! Awesome man, I have been wondering what would prebiotic would do ever since I read them as part of a recipe.

I am going to follow this thread!

 

[Evilgrin]

You will get a lacto fermentation like sauerkraut or kimchi.

 

[bernardsmith]

You will get a lacto fermentation like sauerkraut or kimchi.

You might but is there any lactose in apple juice? I suspect that there are a number of yeasts and other bacteria like L. brevis and brett in the probiotic soup and so you may have a complex hard cider that is both yeast and bacteria fermented

 

[brewit75]

I'm keeping both bottles at 72 degrees and it's approaching 24 hrs since started.

As expected, the bottle with the S05 is showing clear signs of activity. Lots of tiny bubbles running up the side and a few large bubbles floating on top.

The probiotics isn't showing much activity. But, I'm hoping it'll start.

Here's a pic of the ingredients in the probiotics.

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[Evilgrin]

You might but is there any lactose in apple juice?

I don't believe there is any lactose in cabbage or the ingredients in kimchi either. At least i never put any in mine and it surely creates lactic acid within just a few days. The bacteria will convert pretty much any sugar to lactic acid including lactose.

Notice his picture of the label? Its full of lactobacillus bacteria.

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/natural-fermentation/what-is-lacto-fermentation/

The final product of this experiment will taste somewhat similar to vinegar.

 

[Yooper]

You might but is there any lactose in apple juice? I suspect that there are a number of yeasts and other bacteria like L. brevis and brett in the probiotic soup and so you may have a complex hard cider that is both yeast and bacteria fermented

You don't need lactose for lactobacillus to ferment. Lactose is milk sugar, but lactobacillus is a group of rod shaped gram positive bacteria. Brewers who make sour beers like Berliner Weiss use strains of lacto all the time. There are more than 150 strains, and most are not used in brewing.

 

[brewit75]

You don't need lactose for lactobacillus to ferment. Lactose is milk sugar, but lactobacillus is a group of rod shaped gram positive bacteria. Brewers who make sour beers like Berliner Weiss use strains of lacto all the time. There are more than 150 strains, and most are not used in brewing.

Yoop, you think it'll ferment at all?

 

[Yooper]

Yoop, you think it'll ferment at all?

Definitely. You'll get something very tart, probably, and it may turn out good.

 

[bernardsmith]

You don't need lactose for lactobacillus to ferment. Lactose is milk sugar, but lactobacillus is a group of rod shaped gram positive bacteria. Brewers who make sour beers like Berliner Weiss use strains of lacto all the time. There are more than 150 strains, and most are not used in brewing.

I guess my Scottish irony is as challenging as a haggis.

 

[bernardsmith]

Definitely. You'll get something very tart, probably, and it may turn out good.

Just to confirm - when you use say, kefir grains (will have many/most/all the bacteria and yeasts in this commercial "probiotic") to ferment milk -or fruit - you certainly get alcohol.
Store bought kefir does not - I believe - contain any alcohol but that is because there could be legal issues and the products are packaged in ways that the presence of CO2 could result in deformed bulging containers so the manufacturers either inhibit the production of alcohol or remove it. (see Sandor Ellis Katz on wild fermentation)

 

[masonsjax]

I'm betting it will be tart and virtually non-alcoholic.

 

[Evilgrin]

Korean Nuruk, steamed rice, yeast and apple juice will make a similar end product. It gets a bit tangy but its interesting.

On a side note, Google lacto fermented apple juice. Its non alcoholic, tart and sparkling. It returns a bunch of hits.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lacto+fermented+apple+juice&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

[brewit75]

Update: it's been 3 days.

Visually
The S05 (Bottle with the "s") is clearly fermenting. It's extremely carbonated and has all the typical signs of adding a beer yeast to apple juice.

The Probiotics (Bottle with the "p") shows very little change.

Taste
The S05 is just highly carbonated juice with a tangy aftertaste. Still tastes like an altered apple juice. No hint of alcohol.

The Probiotics has a very noticeable change. It's slightly carbonated and almost tastes like a peach chardonnay. Buttery and smooth with fruit flavors that are peach and apple. No hint of alcohol.


Alcohol
They are only 32oz bottles (think small Gatorade bottles) so, every ounce I remove drastically reduces the volume. I'll wait another 4 days and take a 2nd gravity reading.

Here's a picture of them.

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[VasDeferensly]

Strange, I posted a reply last night and it disappeared.

I did something similar, but with a different probiotic. Saccharomyces boulardii is a probiotic yeast. I decided to use it in some cider to make a probiotic cider, and aside from horrible floccuation it worked quite well. I didn't age the cider because I'm using it as a probiotic, but the green flavor is pretty good.

 

[brewit75]

Strange, I posted a reply last night and it disappeared.

I did something similar, but with a different probiotic. Saccharomyces boulardii is a probiotic yeast. I decided to use it in some cider to make a probiotic cider, and aside from horrible floccuation it worked quite well. I didn't age the cider because I'm using it as a probiotic, but the green flavor is pretty good.

Very good to know. I think I might do this on a regular basis. It seems that it's a good way to multiply them and keep them going.

The next thing I might try is adding the probiotic capsule to an already fermented batch.

I'm thinking about getting a gallon of juice, adding S05, let it ferment out (4-6 weeks) and then add 1 or 2 capsules of the probiotics to see what happens.

Of course, I'll have to make a control batch that's just a gallon of juice with S05 and no probiotics. Just to have something to compare it to.

I'm thinking it will accelerate the acid conversation and make a smoother taste and mimic the affect of aging.

 

[Evilgrin]

Lactobacillus needs a sugar source to produce lactic acid. If you ferment dry and don't back sweeten there wont be any sugar for it.

Caldwell and a few others sell lacto starter cultures just for this purpose but they are stupid expensive. You can make up a gallon with some juice then store it in the fridge. The culture will go dormant in the fridge and keeps a very long time. Add a few tablespoons of the lacto fermented juice anytime you need some lactobacillus. I do it all the time when lacto fermenting vegetables like cabbage or peppers. A couple tablespoons of my homemade kraut juice kicks starts my other fermentations very very well.
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/starter-cultures/vegetable-starter-cultures.html

Organic maltodextrin (as a carrier), active lactic bacteria (lactobacillus plantarum, leuconostoc mesenteroides, and pediococcus acidilactici)

 

[brewit75]

Lactobacillus needs a sugar source to produce lactic acid. If you ferment dry and don't back sweeten there wont be any sugar for it.

Caldwell and a few others sell lacto starter cultures just for this purpose but they are stupid expensive. You can make up a gallon with some juice then store it in the fridge. The culture will go dormant in the fridge and keeps a very long time. Add a few tablespoons of the lacto fermented juice anytime you need some lactobacillus. I do it all the time when lacto fermenting vegetables like cabbage or peppers. A couple tablespoons of my homemade kraut juice kicks starts my other fermentations very very well.
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/starter-cultures/vegetable-starter-cultures.html

Gotcha. This is good to know. How about adding it 3 or 4 days after the S05?

 

[Evilgrin]

Gotcha. This is good to know. How about adding it 3 or 4 days after the S05?

Give it a try. The worst that can happen is you end up with a tart and slightly alcoholic beverage like Korean Makegeolli. Its an acquired taste but not bad.

Lactobacillus will slow WAY down converting the sugar to lactic acid at about 50-55F. It can also get tart quickly at warmer temps. I can lacto ferment cabbage in just a few days with a culture starter.

 

[brewit75]

Strange, I posted a reply last night and it disappeared.

I did something similar, but with a different probiotic. Saccharomyces boulardii is a probiotic yeast. I decided to use it in some cider to make a probiotic cider, and aside from horrible floccuation it worked quite well. I didn't age the cider because I'm using it as a probiotic, but the green flavor is pretty good.

How long before you saw active signs of fermentation? Did you take any gravity readings or notice alcohol?

 

[VasDeferensly]

I saw signs of fermentation within two days. I didn't bother with gravity readings as I just tossed a few caps of the probiotic in a 64oz bottle of apple juice and left the lid slightly loose. I may do a 1-2 gallon batch and be somewhat precise about it soon.