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Pro brewers entering homebrew comps?

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I think a professional brewer entering local homebrew competitions isn't technically wrong (unless it's specifically called out in the rules) but it's definitely against the spirit of the competition IMO. The main objective of most homebrew competitions is to provide feedback for entrants to help them improve their process and their beer. Winning ribbons is definitely a part of any competition but it's not supposed to be the main point.

I would personally wonder why a professional brewer feels the need to enter local homebrew competitions. If it's to win ribbons there are plenty of professional competitions out there. If it's to be part of the local community, well he or she can definitely help by judging or supporting local competitions.

It would bother me as someone who likes to enter local circuits to see a professional brewer listed among the winners. The OP mentioned that he was the "co-brewer"; that could range from hanging out with a six pack watching a friend brew to actively brewing the beer. If it bothers you OP then email the competition organizers and let them know about it.

Maybe because he likes homebrewing; maybe because he likes the cameradie and challenge of competitions; maybe because he likes to see how he can do on his own without his brewery's equipment and paid help; maybe because he started as a homebrewer, enjoys it, and sees no reason to give it up just because his day job is at a brewery now. ;)
 
I think that the competition software that most BJCP competitions seem to use has sort of a blanket statement as to eligibility...... "beer has to be brewed at home using ingredients available to others, can't be "on premises" brewing, can't be pilot systems or commercial systems, can't be "for a brewery" or something like that."

I kind of read it as:
*Brewed in your home
*With Stuff you got at a homebrew store or similar (like other homebrewers)
*For home consumption (not piloting test batches for your brewery).

I guess as long as those entering are following the rules outlined by the competition, I don't see a problem with it. Often those rules seem to fall along the lines of what I posted above. I have seen some though that essentially said "amateur" brewer - which, to me, would eliminate someone who is getting paid to brew.

Some of the best beers I have had were brewed by homebrewers. Some of the worst beers I have had were brewed by "professional" brewers....

**Also, if he is being listed as a "co brewer" - maybe it is just someone's way of trying to give thanks/credit to a person who helped them with their recipe/process. Perhaps it was a brewer who was having trouble and the "pro" came by for the brew day to help out and give homebrew advice. This brewer, perhaps, was just acknowledging the help that was received.
 
I think the problem with competitions is that most folks are looking to get descriptive feedback on their beer from people they expect to be qualified in analyzing beer. The problem is that this is not the purpose of ANY c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n; it's a competition. At the end of the day, someone wins and everyone else loses; that's the spirit of competition. I understand that the idea of BJCP sanctioned competitions are also to provide feedback to the contestants, but that is just a "casualty" of the process, it's not the point. At the end of the day the point is to determine which beers win the competition. This is where the fault lies in trying to use a competition for any kind of useful feedback; it's a crap shoot, and sometimes your beer is being analyzed by Who_Knows_Who because they needed more mouths. Sometimes the feedback is helpful and sometimes it's crap, and you're left to decide which it is. Then again, sometimes you just want to battle and win that trophy!

I think most folks entering a "competition" are actually more interested in having their beer analyzed by someone who is very qualified to do so and garner descriptive feedback from them about any/all aspects of the beer than they are to get some kind of point breakdown of their beer and win. The problem is that there is no such venue for this type of task (business idea here!). It's either a "competition", or it's your friends/LHBS to get feedback. If there was a service/store/location where I could take my beer to have analyzed by ____insert__famous__beer__guru__here____ and get their feedback on paper in paragraph form without any point breakdown, you can be sure that I'd use that service. It doesn't even have to be a famous beer guru, it just needs to be a service that utilizes highly trained persons. Once the spirit of competition is omitted, the analysis of beer becomes easier to perform from an objective standpoint.

At least, that's my not_so_humble opinion. ;)

I agree! At this point in my brewing "career" I have won dozens of ribbons/medals. Honestly I am not looking for feedback.....I am looking to WIN! Like you said that is why it is competition...there are winners and losers.
 
Maybe because he likes homebrewing; maybe because he likes the cameradie and challenge of competitions; maybe because he likes to see how he can do on his own without his brewery's equipment and paid help; maybe because he started as a homebrewer, enjoys it, and sees no reason to give it up just because his day job is at a brewery now. ;)

Honestly, a professional brewer that is spending his/her time homebrewing instead of working on their business isn't going to be a professional brewer for very long. There are plenty of competitions out there for professionals that have much more prestige than the ribbons at your local homebrew competition. There are two rationalizes for entering a homebrew comp:

- Evaluation / Trouble Shooting
- Scoring / Winning Ribbons

Any professional that is looking for evaluation or trouble shooting at a competition isn't going to be around for very long. If they're looking to win ribbons against amateurs (non-professionals) I find that that to be pretty pathetic.

That said I recall this coming up a year or two ago with a guy who was entering homebrew comps with his pilot system and then advertising his beers on his brewery's website as "award winning".
 
For me, being part time lackey lowest of the rung in a commercial brewery, where does that place me? I don't choose the brews, the process, the recipe, etc. The beers i brew at home are mine alone.

There's shades of gray. But still, the only comp I've entered (entering technically) since i went on the payroll is NHC.

My ultimate thing, yeah it's kind of pathetic if someone like Mitch Steele (just to toss a name out there, thats all) were to enter a homebrew comp to boost his ego. But if the rules aren't broken it's no foul in my book.
 
If you're getting paid to make beer then you're not an amateur. That said, I think it's definitely a grey area especially for an employee at a med / large craft brewery. The best thing to do is to email the competition organizers and let them decide. The thing where people get upset (including myself) is small one - two person breweries where they have a small pilot system and entering homebrew competitions.
 
who knows? maybe they won the right to "co-brew" an award winning homebrew recipe of theirs at a commercial brewery, as part of a prize in a homebrew competition? I could see that happening.
 
In the case of the OP, the "Pro" brewer was merely the Co-brewer, which means they probably mentored the person who actually brewed the beer. I not only think this is fair, I think it's awesome!

I doubt most pro brewers will spend time entering beers into a homebrew competition. Most find it unappealing, and/or not in the spirit of the competition. I know a guy who brewed a LOT before he went pro. Now he brews for club competitions and as far as I know has stopped entering any other homebrew competitions. We all welcome him into the club competitions because he has a lot of knowledge and experience, but also because he admits that any one of us could get rated higher in any given category. At a equipment level it all evens out, and with basic proper methods, anyone can brew great beer with a great recipe.
 
Agreed, if you're getting paid to brew you're not an amateur. But most competitions don't ban non-amateurs, including NHC. The rules typically only ban professional equipment.
 
I've had plenty of sh*&ty beer from "pro brewers". Just because you work/own a brewery doesn't magically give you the ability to make good brew. Bring it on...... :D
 
Agreed, if you're getting paid to brew you're not an amateur. But most competitions don't ban non-amateurs, including NHC. The rules typically only ban professional equipment.

This is something that I always found a little odd. I think most brewers would agree that high tech, professional equipment doesn't equal great beer. Yet that is what is banned at competitions?:confused: I also think that most brewers would agree that it is the competency of the brewer that makes great beer. Maybe they ban using commercial equipment in an attempt to ban/discourage professional brewers?
 
What's the difference between the guy who went "pro" and the home brewer who's been going at it for 20+ years but never had the ability (or balls?) to go pro if they're brewing on the same homebrewing scale equipment?
Not to mention if you give five different brewers the exact same ingredients, mash times and temps, hop timing ferment temps, etc they would brew a different beer. In fact brulosopher happens to have an experiment on that very topic.
The guy who has won tons of competitions over the last 10 years even, at this point, is likely just doing it for his ego.
If you're entering a competition. To get judged by a bjcp member, you're just as likely to get good feedback from your hb club. There's so much personal preference and perception that goes into beer tasting, why waste the time, effort, and resources to enter that competition unless you want to win? And if you want to win, why not get down all of your techniques and produce a great beer learning from all the longtime brewers first before you enter the competition?
 
Honestly, a professional brewer that is spending his/her time homebrewing instead of working on their business isn't going to be a professional brewer for very long. There are plenty of competitions out there for professionals that have much more prestige than the ribbons at your local homebrew competition. There are two rationalizes for entering a homebrew comp:

- Evaluation / Trouble Shooting
- Scoring / Winning Ribbons

Any professional that is looking for evaluation or trouble shooting at a competition isn't going to be around for very long. If they're looking to win ribbons against amateurs (non-professionals) I find that that to be pretty pathetic.

That said I recall this coming up a year or two ago with a guy who was entering homebrew comps with his pilot system and then advertising his beers on his brewery's website as "award winning".

Lighten up. I think even professional brewers are allowed to go off the clock and do their own thing now and then; their breweries don't own them 24/7. And there's nothing surprising about the notion that maybe their own thing is homebrewing, since that's probably where they started.

I was a professional woodworker, carpenter and general contractor for many years. Guess what I did during my time off? That's right; I built things.

And it's odd that you seem to think people enter competitions mostly just as an ego trip to win ribbons... I doubt that's true for everyone.
 
This is something that I always found a little odd. I think most brewers would agree that high tech, professional equipment doesn't equal great beer. Yet that is what is banned at competitions?:confused: I also think that most brewers would agree that it is the competency of the brewer that makes great beer. Maybe they ban using commercial equipment in an attempt to ban/discourage professional brewers?

Commercial equipment can also equal a 10 gallon homebrew setup in a picobrewery. Anything used for commercial purposes. But commercial ingredients too.

I think it's to discourage commercial brewers from trying to market or quality test their beers in competition (which as we already established would be a stupid thing to do anyway), but also to prevent someone from going to a commercial brewer, paying them to produce the beer, and then entering something they only marginally had a hand in actually brewing. Basically brew it on your own gear. I know some comps allow BOP beers, where others expressly prohibit them.

For me, pinning down "the spirit of the competition" is a subjective argument that, while I agree on principle, is shades of gray, as I said earlier.

It's like telling a mechanic or body shop tech, who works in a shop all day, but then goes home and works on his own car (say, refurbing a muscle car) that he can't enter it in an amateur car show because he's a paid tech, vs. telling a commercial shop that they can't enter something. In my mind, one an be both a pro AND a hobbyist, although not a pro and an amateur.

For me, I suppose the line is creative control. At the brewery I'm working for, I have none (and since the gear has literally only been up and running for a short time, I've done zilch actual brewing on it), and it's still a part time occasional thing (most of which has been assembling the brewhouse) until everything is running full force down the line. My job is primarily haul things, clean things, and grain out. Brewing is a side job.

But even though I brew at home, on my gear, with my own recipes, and my process, during my time, as a hobby.

However, if you're talking about the owner, or the head brewer, someone with significant creative control over what happens in a commercial brewhouse (in the case of a nano or pico, essentially everyone involved, but in the case of bigger brewers, it's a very small percentage), then that's a different story. But even then, who am I to tell someone with such passion for brewing that they do it both for a job, and at home, that they're not a hobbyist too?

So what it all boils down to for me, is if the rules say it's ok, it's ok. If the rules say it's not, it's not. And if you don't like it (whether you're a pro wanting to enter, or a homebrewer mad that pros can enter), then tough luck, don't enter, and put on your own competition the way you want.

I'll agree that it can be kind of odd and annoying to have pro brewers entering homebrew comps to test their product (as I said, I've seen it happen), but if someone's genuinely brewing at home for their own purposes, then their entries are as allowable as anyone else's as long as the rules don't say otherwise. As for me, I may or may not keep entering the occasional comp, but I have zero shame in doing so, because like I said this is still my beers brewed by me as a hobby, completely separate from what is essentially a factory job that also happens to involve brewing beer.
 
So what it all boils down to for me, is if the rules say it's ok, it's ok. If the rules say it's not, it's not. .......
..... if someone's genuinely brewing at home for their own purposes, then their entries are as allowable as anyone else's as long as the rules don't say otherwise. ......

I agree. In general, this is what the "rules" almost always say in a BJCP event:

"All entries must be handcrafted products, containing ingredients available to the general public, and made using private equipment by hobbyist brewers (i.e., no use of commercial facilities or Brew on Premises operations, supplies, etc.)"

or:

"Open to all homebrewers 21 years of age and older. Beers must be entered under the name of all brewers who helped. Beers brewed in commercial facilities are ineligible."


I agree that you can be "employed" by a brewery and also homebrew as a hobby. I do think if a person is brewing the beer, as an actual head brewer, with the intent of scaling it up for their brewery.... they are getting into the area of breaking the "spirit" if not the actual rules. But, if you are the book keeper, taproom manager, or cleaning kegs and following directions of those in charge.... I see zero problem with those folks wanting to pursue something they enjoy as a hobby and enter competitions so long as they are "home brewing" in the same sense as everyone else.
 
It Seems a lot of folks seem to think a pro brewer some how has the money to buy a big fancy pro system for their home set up. I've seen some folks on here post stuff that would make a pro brewer say "DAMN".

The pro Brewers might have a really fantastic set of skills but I bet they can't afford the equipment a hobbyist could afford. Yeah it's bullpoop if someone tries to brew on a commercial system and enter it because more commercial systems are so fully automated you press a button and you get beer on the other side. To extend the idea further I bet there's "amateur" Brewers that have systems that they press a button and get a beer on the other side, then it boils down to recipe. Where do we draw the line on automation?
 
I think the problem with competitions is that most folks are looking to get descriptive feedback on their beer from people they expect to be qualified in analyzing beer. The problem is that this is not the purpose of ANY c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n; it's a competition. At the end of the day, someone wins and everyone else loses; that's the spirit of competition. I understand that the idea of BJCP sanctioned competitions are also to provide feedback to the contestants, but that is just a "casualty" of the process, it's not the point.

Actually, giving feedback is required in BJCP competitions. The following is from page 2 of the BJCP competition handbook:
Feedback must be given to the brewer/entrant of each entry submitted. The BJCP judging
forms3
are recommended, but not mandatory. Whatever type of scoresheet is used, they
must be returned promptly to the entrants.

I agree that in reality not everyone gets useful feedback. However there are seven requirements for all BJCP competitions and the feedback portion (above) was important enough to make #3 on the list.
If you are entering the competition to win, I would think having the best possible competitors would make your win more meaningful.
But if you are entering for feedback, who cares who else has entered?
 
I'm a brewer in a mid-size production brewery (70,000 bbls/ year). I say I'm a brewer in the sense that I make wort, cool it, pitch yeast and probably have no other interaction with it until I drink it out of the bottle. I have no say in our recipe design on commercially produced beers. I still homebrew, at home, on equipment I've had since before I was a "pro" with ingredients from the LHBS. While I feel what I've learned in my job has helped me be a better brewer, nothing are subjects I couldn't have learned on my own. I enter BCJP competitions for feedback on my own process and technique. I've only ever come across a few competitions across the country that specifically state "no one employed by a brewery may enter", most of which are competitions I wouldn't enter anyways. Do I feel bad when I win medals, no.
 
I think the fact that this takes up 6 pages (so far) on HBT would indicate that the organizers of competitions are discussing it as well. As the numbers of breweries in the US increases (exponentially, you might say), then the number of people who know and love the science (all y'all as we say here) will apply for and find employment in those new brewing ventures. Does this change the way competitions are organized? Probably for some it will.
 
I don't see a problem with pro brewers entering homebrew comps as long as the beer entered is homebrew. I brew at a commercial brewery, albeit a very small one. The Sabco system is in my avatar. I have complete creative control over recipe formulation and production. I'm the only employee of the brewery.

I also homebrew. I brew extract in a single pot in my front yard. It's a hobby.
I don't brew the same recipes at home as I do at work. What would be the fun in that? I can go to the bar and drink my commercial beer whenever I want, and free of charge.

At home is where I get to experiment and brew whatever I wanna drink without regards to whether I think it will sell or not. Not to say that I dont try stuff out at home , anticipating that I might want to try something similar for the brewery. I do. But it's still homebrew.

I have never entered a competition, commercial or homebrew, but I would hate to think the homebrewing community and it's competitions would ban me from entry just because I brew for money on the weekends.

That said,i still consider myself a novice brewer, even though I brew on a commercial level. There are many, many folks on this site alone who have vastly more knowledge and experience than me, and have never left the garage with their beer. Their homebrew would blow mine away in a competition.

Don't really know where I'm going with this other than to say that it's not right to shun pro brewers from the homebrew scene and it's competitions just because they brew for a living. Pro brewer does not equal great brewer, and if the beer in question was brewed at home, on home equipment, then the playing field is level.
 
I don't see a problem with pro brewers entering homebrew comps as long as the beer entered is homebrew. I brew at a commercial brewery, albeit a very small one. The Sabco system is in my avatar. I have complete creative control over recipe formulation and production. I'm the only employee of the brewery.

I also homebrew. I brew extract in a single pot in my front yard. It's a hobby.
I don't brew the same recipes at home as I do at work. What would be the fun in that? I can go to the bar and drink my commercial beer whenever I want, and free of charge.

At home is where I get to experiment and brew whatever I wanna drink without regards to whether I think it will sell or not. Not to say that I dont try stuff out at home , anticipating that I might want to try something similar for the brewery. I do. But it's still homebrew.

I have never entered a competition, commercial or homebrew, but I would hate to think the homebrewing community and it's competitions would ban me from entry just because I brew for money on the weekends.

That said,i still consider myself a novice brewer, even though I brew on a commercial level. There are many, many folks on this site alone who have vastly more knowledge and experience than me, and have never left the garage with their beer. Their homebrew would blow mine away in a competition.

Don't really know where I'm going with this other than to say that it's not right to shun pro brewers from the homebrew scene and it's competitions just because they brew for a living. Pro brewer does not equal great brewer, and if the beer in question was brewed at home, on home equipment, then the playing field is level.

This why the "professional equipment" clause is suspect. If you brew on a Sabco for work it is professional but someone who brews on their Sabco in their garage is an amateur? It's the same piece of equipment!!
 
Could care less whether a pro enters. There are scads of amateurs who know as much about brewing as the average pro, and there are a handful of elite amateurs who are on a level with the most of the best pros, and certainly exceed the knowledge, vision and capability of the average pro.
 
i've never entered a competition. are the judges completely blind about the beer their tasting except the category it's being entered into?
 
i've never entered a competition. are the judges completely blind about the beer their tasting except the category it's being entered into?

Judges know nothing outside of entry number, style, and if it's a specialty style (wood aged, fruit, smoke, specialty, etc), whatever special ingredient/process information is needed for judging. If you enter a Belgian Dark Strong, the only thing the judges will know is that it's a Belgian Dark Strong. If you enter in 23 and state that it's an American Pale Ale with Rye, then that's all the judges will know, base style and special ingredient. They don't know extract or all-grain, don't know recipe, don't know process, don't know brewer.

So, yes. It's completely blind. That's also a condition of BJCP sanctioning.
 
The guy who has won tons of competitions over the last 10 years even, at this point, is likely just doing it for his ego.

Just to add one more perspective to this topic, what about the idea of competing homebrew clubs?

I'm not sure about competitions where you are, but most of the competitions I've entered (Canada), they also list your affiliated homebrew club. So each category lists the Gold, Silver, and Bronze winners, in addition to mentioning their homebrew club. There's a friendly, informal rivalry between homebrew clubs to see which club can have their members take the most medals. So even guys who've been brewing for a decade are motivated to submit their beers to country-wide competitions in order to help "represent" their local club, so the club can brag and say "Our members took 23% of the medals in the Vancouver competition this year."
 
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