Pro brewers entering homebrew comps?

[Phunhog]

So I have noticed a certain name popping up in the list of winners in a lot of local BJCP comps. I recognized it as a pro brewer....he is actually listed as a " co-brewer". Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand I am sure the beer is made on "homebrew" equipment. Plus what really makes a "pro brewer"...? I think it is a good discussion point because it brings up something important? What is more important....equipment? or knowledge, skills, experience? There is no right answer just wondering how you guys felt.....

 

[Culinarytracker]

In my opinion, if the head brewer of New Belgium goes home and brews a 5 gallon batch on a 3-tier system in his garage and that would be a home brew. I don't see why he should be disqualified from a home brew competition just because he's awesome at it.

On the other hand, if he brews an experimental batch at the brewery, then that should not be allowed.

This is similar to various pool tournaments I play in, where people get all worked up about a pro player friend of mine entering the tournament. I have even seen him asked to leave just because the other players got upset that they were there.

In other words, unless the rules specify "amateur only". And the brew is really a home brew. I don't know why anyone should be barred from entering.

Just my 2cents, obviously my pool experience has biased me on this kind of issue. And (full disclosure) I have no HBC experience. What does everyone else think?

 

[TallDan]

In the eyes of the law, the only difference between a homebrew and a commercial brew is where it is brewed. A brewer is not licensed, a brewery is. So, if you brew a beer at home, it's a homebrew. Let's say that brew wins a competition or you make friends with a pro brewer and you are invited to brew at a licensed brewery. The beer you make there is a commercial beer.

If pro brewers were not allowed to enter homebrew competitions, how would you keep them out? Also, would you forbid participation from all brewery employees, or just brewers? What about brewer's assistants? What about master brewers who don't personally brew at their brewery anymore, but have moved up to more of a management position? How about janitors or accountants? What if you were the bartender at the brewpub, but occasionally got to help out with a batch in the brewery?

IMO, follow the same logic as the law does. If it's brewed in a licensed brewery, it's a commercial beer, if it is brewed basically anywhere else, it's a homebrew. I really doubt that many commercial brewers are going to be interested in entering their commercial beers in a homebrew contest. It serves them no purpose, there's no bragging rights, and they can't associate the win with the name of the brewery. They have much more to gain by putting their beers in the GABF or some other commercial beer competition.

 

[brick_haus]

I've thought about this before. In my opinion, the goal is to have the best recipe, ingredients and process in place to win the competition no matter. As long as all of the rules are adhered to, anyone should be able to enter. Thats what competition is.

 

[blizzard]

Interesting questioning.

I guess I agree that they should be allowed if they are bringing homebrew. But, I think the brewer should use some discretion. If you're a head brewer and you think you have a recipe that will win some competitions, why not make it commercially and enter a commercial comp??

 

[cannman]

There are some pretty crappy "pro brewers" out there. A decent "pro brewer" has near-perfected the compromise between cost, quality, and time.

IMHO if you gave 100 home brewers the same grain bill, you'd get 100 different characteristically different beers, all of which has to do with technique and/or error. If you had this "semi-pro" brewer's grain bill, could you beat him with it? Why or why not?

Answer that question and you'll become a better brewer

 

[Phunhog]

So if a pro brewer can enter a comp using homebrew equipment why can't an amateur enter a comp using pro equipment? Most comps specify that the beer can not be brewed on commercial equipment. Is it the pro equipment that is an unfair advantage?

 

[cannman]

So if a pro brewer can enter a comp using homebrew equipment why can't an amateur enter a comp using pro equipment? Most comps specify that the beer can not be brewed on commercial equipment. Is it the pro equipment that is an unfair advantage?

What'a pro equipment exactly??

 

[PLOVE]

I know we spend a lot of time "cloning" brews, but think of how often we attempt this and the end results is actually better! The goal of a Pro-brewer is reproducibility. The goal of the homebrewer is great beer. Different end goals and I'd wager that lots of amateur homebrewers can knock the socks of commercial brews.

I live in portland, and have entered lots of house-party local competitions against Portland brewery standards. In blind tests, I've won most. Am I a better brewer, or just a better homebrewer. Give yourselves the credit you deserve. You guys brew great beer that you and your friends love. It may not be the same product everytime, but the variation is sometimes wonderful and worthy of emulation. Kudos to the homebrewer!
P

 

[PLOVE]

I know we spend a lot of time "cloning" brews, but think of how often we attempt this and the end results is actually better! The goal of a Pro-brewer is reproducibility. The goal of the homebrewer is great beer. Different end goals and I'd wager that lots of amateur homebrewers can knock the socks of commercial brews.

I live in portland, and have entered lots of house-party local competitions against Portland brewery standards. In blind tests, I've won most. Am I a better brewer, or just a better homebrewer. Give yourselves the credit you deserve. You guys brew great beer that you and your friends love. It may not be the same product everytime, but the variation is sometimes wonderful and worthy of emulation. Kudos to the homebrewer!
P

 

[CB_in_Tokyo]

So if a pro brewer can enter a comp using homebrew equipment why can't an amateur enter a comp using pro equipment? Most comps specify that the beer can not be brewed on commercial equipment. Is it the pro equipment that is an unfair advantage?

Because it is the use of commercial equipment that is banned. Having access to equipment that the home brewers do not have access makes for an un level playing field. Just being really good at something should not be cause for being banned at competitions in my opinion.

 

[jsprinceiii]

Other than "Size/Scale" The home brewer has the capability to have equipment similar to a commercial brewery.
Whatever the reason a person brews beer is, should be the motivation for competition. If a 'Pro' brewer is winning
competitions, then that means their beer is better. We should be motivated to make ours better. At one time this
'Pro' Brewer, was probably not a Pro. As with any competition, you need to be the best. Maybe asking the winner
what "I" can do to better my beer? Talk with them, I am sure they would be open to sharing knowledge.

Personally I believe a competition should be open to "all".

 

[Phunhog]

Because it is the use of commercial equipment that is banned. Having access to equipment that the home brewers do not have access makes for an un level playing field. Just being really good at something should not be cause for being banned at competitions in my opinion.

Yes but at what point are you a ringer? An example would be a pro basketball player playing in a rec league. The game doesn't change a bit.......yet most people would say that is an unfair advantage.

 

[Horseballs]

What exactly do you think a professional brewer is capable of doing that a homebrewer can't do? Is it that they have a lot more experience? Then should we disqualify a homebrewer that has brewed hundreds of batches? Things work a lot differently at 10, 20 30, 75bbl than they do at 10 gallons. A lot of shift brewers I know didn't homebrew to begin with.

 

[Culinarytracker]

Yes but at what point are you a ringer? An example would be a pro basketball player playing in a rec league. The game doesn't change a bit.......yet most people would say that is an unfair advantage.

Well, most competitions have one of a few ways to handle this IF it becomes an issue that warrants action.

Handicapping - I don't see how this would work with brewing.

Entry Classes - Maybe after you've won a few medals you have to enter the "Masters division" sort of thing.

I'm sure there are others, but my brain isn't being to quick tonight. I just can't see asking someone not to enter because they are too good. This becomes a slippery slope, and when one person becomes too good, then many many people think that the next person on the list should be banned too. Where would you draw the line?

 

[Bobbybob]

Homebrew is made at home. Some of our members have started brewery's or written books on the subject of beer but if they brew at home the are also homebrewers. If someone is on a hot streak you need to pick their brain, find out how to tighten or tweak you recipe or system. I don't know about you guys but I can talk about brewing all day long. I bet this brewer is the same.

 

[orangehero]

Experience, knowledge, education, and skills. A homebrewer that has brewed hundreds of batches is still far away from someone with a diploma in brewing science who brews beer every day for a living.

I'm surprised someone like that would even want to homebrew much less enter competitions against non-professional homebrewers. Seems a little pathetic.

 

[Qhrumphf]

As I've started venturing into the world of pro brewing, it's something I've been thinking about. And ultimately, I would just go by the letter of the rules. Most competitions state "no commercial equipment". A select number of competitions do specify "amateur" or "hobbyist" brewers only. There's no overarching regulation to it, and every comp can set its own rules here.

And yes, there is absolutely nothing that a pro brewer would have access to that a homebrewer couldn't get given enough funds. And ultimately, beers that win in the finals of NHC should be just as good as the best beers of their style in the world, commercial or otherwise. And I'd wager better than the typical commercial version in that style. So there's absolutely no reason that a homebrewer can't brew a beer better than a pro brewer.

So, endpoint is, do what the rules say, if you don't qualify, don't enter, and if you don't like that someone else qualifies, don't enter. End of story.

 

[MaddBaggins]

Yes but at what point are you a ringer? An example would be a pro basketball player playing in a rec league. The game doesn't change a bit.......yet most people would say that is an unfair advantage.

I wouldn't consider them a ringer. Just because the person is a pro brewer doesn't mean they could make a better beer than me on a homebrew setup.

 

[Darwin18]

I think a professional brewer entering local homebrew competitions isn't technically wrong (unless it's specifically called out in the rules) but it's definitely against the spirit of the competition IMO. The main objective of most homebrew competitions is to provide feedback for entrants to help them improve their process and their beer. Winning ribbons is definitely a part of any competition but it's not supposed to be the main point.

I would personally wonder why a professional brewer feels the need to enter local homebrew competitions. If it's to win ribbons there are plenty of professional competitions out there. If it's to be part of the local community, well he or she can definitely help by judging or supporting local competitions.

It would bother me as someone who likes to enter local circuits to see a professional brewer listed among the winners. The OP mentioned that he was the "co-brewer"; that could range from hanging out with a six pack watching a friend brew to actively brewing the beer. If it bothers you OP then email the competition organizers and let them know about it.

 

[TallDan]

Another thing to consider here is that each beer is judged on it's own merit. Unlike an amateur basketball league where some highly skilled pro defensive players could completely shut down the offense of the amateur team, the entry from a pro brewer would not in any way make your beer score lower.

 

[Hello]

I think if they're brewing on their small scale system and such then why not? I know breweries that produce pretty sub-standard beer as is. Being pro doesn't mean you're good.

 

[AnOldUR]

Seems a little pathetic.

. . . but it's definitely against the spirit of the competition IMO.

I'm thinking both of these.

If you're a pro brewer entering a homebrew competition there are two motivations I can think of. One, big ego. The other, even though it's made at "home", you're using it as a pilot brew for ideas that will fly at your brewery.

Once you put on big boy pants, it's a little silly to play with the kids in diapers.

That said. There are plenty of homebrew systems showcased here on HBT that would make some pros jealous.

 

[stpug]

I'm thinking both of these.

If you're a pro brewer entering a homebrew competition there are two motivations I can think of. One, big ego. The other, even though it's made at "home", you're using it as a pilot brew for ideas that will fly at your brewery.

Once you put on big boy pants, it's a little silly to play with the kids in diapers.

That said. There are plenty of homebrew systems showcased here on HBT that would make some pros jealous.

HEY! Who you callin' a kid in diapers??? No fair! WAHHHHHH!! Mommy, an old UR is callin' me names!!! WAHHHHH!!

 

[Qhrumphf]

The other, even though it's made at "home", you're using it as a pilot brew for ideas that will fly at your brewery.

I've seen pros (nanos) enter beers for this reason. Last comp i judged, the winner of one of my categories turned out to be one.

My thing is, competition winning beer is not the same thing as good beer is not the same thing as marketable beer. Usually the three coincide but not always. Which follows that a homebrew competition isn't a good place to test the market. And if your QC is bad enough that you need a homebrew comp to pick out flaws you're not ready to go pro.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I've seen pros (nanos) enter beers for this reason. Last comp i judged, the winner of one of my categories turned out to be one.

My thing is, competition winning beer is not the same thing as good beer is not the same thing as marketable beer. Usually the three coincide but not always. Which follows that a homebrew competition isn't a good place to test the market. And if your QC is bad enough that you need a homebrew comp to pick out flaws you're not ready to go pro.

Totally agree on this point, getting a couple of score sheets back from a homebrew competition is a TERRIBLE way to test the marketability of a commercial product.

I personally don't agree with the idea of commercial brewers entering their product into a hobby competition. We all know that there are a lot of mediocre/crappy commercial brewers, but if it is something that you now do for a living and take a paycheck from it's no longer a hobby. And being bad at it doesn't give you a pass to enter a hobby competition.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

My thing is, competition winning beer is not the same thing as good beer is not the same thing as marketable beer.

It's probably pretty similar to the difference between buying a car for every day drive to work drive home, or buying a sports car/super car.

Perfect Homebrew = Formula 1 car, will only be at its best in perfect conditions. (some can take a beating and come out good but largely if our homebrew is treated roughly in one way or another, we will definitely score lower in competition scoring)

Perfect Commercial Beer = Family Sedan, works 99.99999% of the time no matter what conditions you throw it in.

If I entered a comp and my beer came in 2nd place, and the beer in 1st place was from a pro brewer, I would be sad I didn't get 1st, but to me if I saw the guy in first place was Jamil or something I'd be proud I got that close to the sun (so to speak). Sort of like a high school team only just barely being beaten by the Patriots. When I wrestled in high school I would be having a good day and won my first two matches of the day and on my third match I got smoked by some dude that was wrestling up 2 weight classes. I was angry, but I found out like 10 minutes later he was going to a top tier college on a full scholarship (he pinned me in all of about 30 seconds, if even that) I didn't really feel so bad about the loss anymore.

 

[NickTheGreat]

I think it's REALLY a stretch. A professional chef shouldn't be allowed to enter a amateur cooking contest. A professional basketball player shouldn't be allowed to enter the bball tourney at the Y.

Brewing is a little bit different, but the NB brewer is still trained and compensated for being a brewer. That is not an amateur.

 

[dkevinb]

Interesting question. We're involved in the horse industry, showing western reining and working cow horses. Like most sports there are amateur/non-pro classes and open/pro classes. There are some extraordinarily good non-pro riders and some mediocre pros, but it would be a rare thing for an amateur to be able to consistently beat a pro. If I were to enter a beer competition I would prefer to compete against other non-pros. At my level I don't see any point in competing against pros.

 

[stpug]

I think the problem with competitions is that most folks are looking to get descriptive feedback on their beer from people they expect to be qualified in analyzing beer. The problem is that this is not the purpose of ANY c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n; it's a competition. At the end of the day, someone wins and everyone else loses; that's the spirit of competition. I understand that the idea of BJCP sanctioned competitions are also to provide feedback to the contestants, but that is just a "casualty" of the process, it's not the point. At the end of the day the point is to determine which beers win the competition. This is where the fault lies in trying to use a competition for any kind of useful feedback; it's a crap shoot, and sometimes your beer is being analyzed by Who_Knows_Who because they needed more mouths. Sometimes the feedback is helpful and sometimes it's crap, and you're left to decide which it is. Then again, sometimes you just want to battle and win that trophy!

I think most folks entering a "competition" are actually more interested in having their beer analyzed by someone who is very qualified to do so and garner descriptive feedback from them about any/all aspects of the beer than they are to get some kind of point breakdown of their beer and win. The problem is that there is no such venue for this type of task (business idea here!). It's either a "competition", or it's your friends/LHBS to get feedback. If there was a service/store/location where I could take my beer to have analyzed by ____insert__famous__beer__guru__here____ and get their feedback on paper in paragraph form without any point breakdown, you can be sure that I'd use that service. It doesn't even have to be a famous beer guru, it just needs to be a service that utilizes highly trained persons. Once the spirit of competition is omitted, the analysis of beer becomes easier to perform from an objective standpoint.

At least, that's my not_so_humble opinion.

 

[troy2000]

I think a professional brewer entering local homebrew competitions isn't technically wrong (unless it's specifically called out in the rules) but it's definitely against the spirit of the competition IMO. The main objective of most homebrew competitions is to provide feedback for entrants to help them improve their process and their beer. Winning ribbons is definitely a part of any competition but it's not supposed to be the main point.

I would personally wonder why a professional brewer feels the need to enter local homebrew competitions. If it's to win ribbons there are plenty of professional competitions out there. If it's to be part of the local community, well he or she can definitely help by judging or supporting local competitions.

It would bother me as someone who likes to enter local circuits to see a professional brewer listed among the winners. The OP mentioned that he was the "co-brewer"; that could range from hanging out with a six pack watching a friend brew to actively brewing the beer. If it bothers you OP then email the competition organizers and let them know about it.

Maybe because he likes homebrewing; maybe because he likes the cameradie and challenge of competitions; maybe because he likes to see how he can do on his own without his brewery's equipment and paid help; maybe because he started as a homebrewer, enjoys it, and sees no reason to give it up just because his day job is at a brewery now.

 

[Braufessor]

I think that the competition software that most BJCP competitions seem to use has sort of a blanket statement as to eligibility...... "beer has to be brewed at home using ingredients available to others, can't be "on premises" brewing, can't be pilot systems or commercial systems, can't be "for a brewery" or something like that."

I kind of read it as:
*Brewed in your home
*With Stuff you got at a homebrew store or similar (like other homebrewers)
*For home consumption (not piloting test batches for your brewery).

I guess as long as those entering are following the rules outlined by the competition, I don't see a problem with it. Often those rules seem to fall along the lines of what I posted above. I have seen some though that essentially said "amateur" brewer - which, to me, would eliminate someone who is getting paid to brew.

Some of the best beers I have had were brewed by homebrewers. Some of the worst beers I have had were brewed by "professional" brewers....

**Also, if he is being listed as a "co brewer" - maybe it is just someone's way of trying to give thanks/credit to a person who helped them with their recipe/process. Perhaps it was a brewer who was having trouble and the "pro" came by for the brew day to help out and give homebrew advice. This brewer, perhaps, was just acknowledging the help that was received.

 

[Phunhog]

I think the problem with competitions is that most folks are looking to get descriptive feedback on their beer from people they expect to be qualified in analyzing beer. The problem is that this is not the purpose of ANY c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n; it's a competition. At the end of the day, someone wins and everyone else loses; that's the spirit of competition. I understand that the idea of BJCP sanctioned competitions are also to provide feedback to the contestants, but that is just a "casualty" of the process, it's not the point. At the end of the day the point is to determine which beers win the competition. This is where the fault lies in trying to use a competition for any kind of useful feedback; it's a crap shoot, and sometimes your beer is being analyzed by Who_Knows_Who because they needed more mouths. Sometimes the feedback is helpful and sometimes it's crap, and you're left to decide which it is. Then again, sometimes you just want to battle and win that trophy!

I think most folks entering a "competition" are actually more interested in having their beer analyzed by someone who is very qualified to do so and garner descriptive feedback from them about any/all aspects of the beer than they are to get some kind of point breakdown of their beer and win. The problem is that there is no such venue for this type of task (business idea here!). It's either a "competition", or it's your friends/LHBS to get feedback. If there was a service/store/location where I could take my beer to have analyzed by ____insert__famous__beer__guru__here____ and get their feedback on paper in paragraph form without any point breakdown, you can be sure that I'd use that service. It doesn't even have to be a famous beer guru, it just needs to be a service that utilizes highly trained persons. Once the spirit of competition is omitted, the analysis of beer becomes easier to perform from an objective standpoint.

At least, that's my not_so_humble opinion.

I agree! At this point in my brewing "career" I have won dozens of ribbons/medals. Honestly I am not looking for feedback.....I am looking to WIN! Like you said that is why it is competition...there are winners and losers.

 

[Darwin18]

Maybe because he likes homebrewing; maybe because he likes the cameradie and challenge of competitions; maybe because he likes to see how he can do on his own without his brewery's equipment and paid help; maybe because he started as a homebrewer, enjoys it, and sees no reason to give it up just because his day job is at a brewery now.

Honestly, a professional brewer that is spending his/her time homebrewing instead of working on their business isn't going to be a professional brewer for very long. There are plenty of competitions out there for professionals that have much more prestige than the ribbons at your local homebrew competition. There are two rationalizes for entering a homebrew comp:

- Evaluation / Trouble Shooting
- Scoring / Winning Ribbons

Any professional that is looking for evaluation or trouble shooting at a competition isn't going to be around for very long. If they're looking to win ribbons against amateurs (non-professionals) I find that that to be pretty pathetic.

That said I recall this coming up a year or two ago with a guy who was entering homebrew comps with his pilot system and then advertising his beers on his brewery's website as "award winning".

 

[Qhrumphf]

For me, being part time lackey lowest of the rung in a commercial brewery, where does that place me? I don't choose the brews, the process, the recipe, etc. The beers i brew at home are mine alone.

There's shades of gray. But still, the only comp I've entered (entering technically) since i went on the payroll is NHC.

My ultimate thing, yeah it's kind of pathetic if someone like Mitch Steele (just to toss a name out there, thats all) were to enter a homebrew comp to boost his ego. But if the rules aren't broken it's no foul in my book.

 

[Darwin18]

If you're getting paid to make beer then you're not an amateur. That said, I think it's definitely a grey area especially for an employee at a med / large craft brewery. The best thing to do is to email the competition organizers and let them decide. The thing where people get upset (including myself) is small one - two person breweries where they have a small pilot system and entering homebrew competitions.

 

[orangehero]

Is brewer in your job title?

 

[phug]

who knows? maybe they won the right to "co-brew" an award winning homebrew recipe of theirs at a commercial brewery, as part of a prize in a homebrew competition? I could see that happening.

 

[Homercidal]

In the case of the OP, the "Pro" brewer was merely the Co-brewer, which means they probably mentored the person who actually brewed the beer. I not only think this is fair, I think it's awesome!

I doubt most pro brewers will spend time entering beers into a homebrew competition. Most find it unappealing, and/or not in the spirit of the competition. I know a guy who brewed a LOT before he went pro. Now he brews for club competitions and as far as I know has stopped entering any other homebrew competitions. We all welcome him into the club competitions because he has a lot of knowledge and experience, but also because he admits that any one of us could get rated higher in any given category. At a equipment level it all evens out, and with basic proper methods, anyone can brew great beer with a great recipe.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Agreed, if you're getting paid to brew you're not an amateur. But most competitions don't ban non-amateurs, including NHC. The rules typically only ban professional equipment.