Primo Bottles for Wine Aging

[Austin Willoughby]

Alright so ik the primo questioned has been asked numerous times and before everyone jumps all over me about searching I did a quick search on here and Google and couldn't find anything about aging in them only about fermenting.

So my question is for bulk aging would it be ok for around a year potentially 2? Ik some of the primo material is air permeable. Keeping in mind this will be for aging 10-16 percent wines with no carbonation before bottling.

My thoughts are this. My sink water is trash with lots of rust and chlorine so I can purchase three 5 gallong jugs at a time for making around 14 gallons of wine. This will be around 15 bucks or 7.50 dollars for the water and 7.50 dollars for an aging vessel. I'll then use the same jugs to age after brewing in my fermizilla which will have a 3 step process. 1 month ferment. 1 month bentonite clear and then 1 month standard clear before bottling. All the aging buckets seem to be 10-20 bucks.

Btw I've been buying mineral water by the gallons for aprund 1.50 a gallon to just have to toss the jugs.

Thoughts?

Posted original thread in wrong forum

 

[IslandLizard]

Can you ask them what material those 5 gallon jugs are made of?

IIRC, we prefer using (clear) PET (aka PETE, plastic recycle code #1) for fermentations. For example: Fermonsters, Fermzilla, All Rounder, etc.
And stay away from the bluish tinted ones typically used for water dispensers.

That said, I don't know if you can age for 1-2 years in those, without your beer [EDIT] or wine getting oxidized. PET is not close enough to 0% Oxygen permeability.

Most of my brew friends who age beers (from Imperial Stouts to Sours) use old fashioned glass carboys (they're very careful, minimizing handling those) or stainless steel kegs, which is my preference.

Some use half barrel (15.5 gallon) Sanke kegs for aging or as Soleras.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Can you ask them what material those 5 gallon jugs are made of?

IIRC, we prefer using (clear) PET (aka PETE, plastic recycle code #1) for fermentations. For example: Fermonsters, Fermzilla, All Rounder, etc.
And stay away from the bluish tinted ones typically used for water dispensers.

That said, I don't know if you can age for 1-2 years in those, without your beer getting oxidized. PET is not close enough to 0% Oxygen permeability.

Most of my brew friends who age beers (from Imperial Stouts to Sours) use old fashioned glass carboys (they're very careful, minimizing handling those) or stainless steel kegs, which is my preference.

Some use half barrel (15.5 gallon) Sanke kegs for aging or as Soleras.

Yea I use a fermizalla which is pet material for fermenting. I know they may have some micro oxygenation similar to wooden wine barrels. So in this case it being used for wine changes the dynamic completely over beer from my understanding.

I wouldn't be using it for fermentation only for aging after getting a nearly clear wine.

I don't have a local brew store and food lion is very easy to access over ordering online or going over an hour up the road to get to a brew store.

This would help cost a bunch over the expensive kegs and all.

 

[IslandLizard]

I wouldn't be using it for fermentation only for aging after getting a nearly clear wine.

It's what the alcohol can leech from certain plastics, over time, that becomes important. There's a difference between 1-2 months in a fermenter vs, 1-2 years of aging.

If they're 100% PET it should be OK.
That leaves potential oxidation with longer aging times. The O2 permeability of the bung and airlock play a role in that too.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

It's what the alcohol can leech from certain plastics, over time, that becomes important. There's a difference between 1-2 months in a fermenter vs, 1-2 years of aging.

If they're 100% PET it should be OK.
That leaves potential oxidation with longer aging times. The O2 permeability of the bung and airlock play a role in that too.

Ok yea that's what I was more curious about. The alcohol pulling plastic into the brew. So most bottling buckets are hdpe and I was under the impression they have the same problem. So what would be the difference really is my thoughts

 

[mashdar]

IIRC, they (You know, them. Those ones.) demonstrated that O2 from the bung/interface was much larger than permiation through a PET carboy.

I could not find a source after a very brief googlin', but I was pretty convinced ~15 years ago when I read it : )

edit: point being, aging in PET is fine if aging in glass is fine. Wide mouth vessels probably perform worse than standard carboys.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

IIRC, they (You know, them. Those ones.) demonstrated that O2 from the bung/interface was much larger than permiation through a PET carboy.

I could not find a source after a very brief googlin', but I was pretty convinced ~15 years ago when I read it : )

edit: point being, aging in PET is fine if aging in glass is fine. Wide mouth vessels probably perform worse than standard carboys.

That's understandable but a reminder that in ancient times they used barrels and pots with wide mouths so I can't see that being a huge issue more so the plastics leeching from today's materials. Small amounts of O2 seems less a concern as leeching is in wine but idk lol

 

[MaxStout]

That's understandable but a reminder that in ancient times they used barrels and pots with wide mouths so I can't see that being a huge issue more so the plastics leeching from today's materials. Small amounts of O2 seems less a concern as leeching is in wine but idk lol

I don't think you'd want to drink the swill they drank in ancient times.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

I don't think you'd want to drink the swill they drank in ancient times.

Yea you got a point lmao. The Egyptians were pioneers in wine making from my understanding or am I missing something? Anyway there are people still using wide mouth barrels today with great success.

 

[mashdar]

Yea you got a point lmao. The Egyptians were pioneers in wine making from my understanding or am I missing something? Anyway there are people still using wide mouth barrels today with great success.

Oh, by performing worse, I merely meant O2 ingress would be higher. (EG a glass big mouth probably lets more O2 in than a standard PET carboy.)

Whether that O2 is acceptable or not is something else entirely.

I've always assumed PET is pretty safe if stored properly, but perhaps it needs some more reading. (I would absolutely not ferment or age in recycled plastic.)

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Oh, by performing worse, I merely meant O2 ingress would be higher. (EG a glass big mouth probably lets more O2 in than a standard PET carboy.)

Whether that O2 is acceptable or not is something else entirely.

I've always assumed PET is pretty safe if stored properly, but perhaps it needs some more reading. (I would absolutely not ferment or age in recycled plastic.)

Yea I see what you mean. I'll do so more research on it for sure. I really prefer buckets at this stage bc storage will be way easier than necked bottles that can't be stacked.

 

[IslandLizard]

I really prefer buckets at this stage

Buckets are typically made of HDPE (#2) plastic. Aside from the plastic's fairly high O2 permeability compared to PET, the lid closure is rarely airtight, making them less suitable for long term wine or beer aging/storage.

All the aging buckets seem to be 10-20 bucks.

Plastic "aging" buckets?
Do you mean bottling buckets? If so, same as above, or worse. ^

Well-sealing stainless "wine tanks" would be more ideal. Although they're pricey, they can last a lifetime of perfect service.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Buckets are typically made of HDPE (#2) plastic. Aside from the plastic's fairly high O2 permeability compared to PET, the lid closure is rarely airtight, making them less suitable for long term wine or beer aging/storage.


Plastic "aging" buckets?
Do you mean bottling buckets? If so, same as above, or worse. ^

Well-sealing stainless "wine tanks" would be more ideal. Although they're pricey, they can last a lifetime of perfect service.

Yea bottling buckets I should say. And that's what I needed to know. I'm more concerned about storage simplicity and price obviously lol. Anything with a neck is just very cumbersome to store unless it's the small wine bottles. Cleary I don't want something that will contaminate the wine also.

I just need something to age them for around a year before moving to wine bottles.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yea bottling buckets I should say. And that's what I needed to know.

Just for the record:
Bottling buckets are simply 6.5 gallon #2 plastic brew buckets, with a spigot mounted in the side, near the bottom.

They're only used for 1 hour or so, the time it takes to add pre-dissolved priming sugar, fill with fermented beer from the fermenter (by racking), followed by filling the bottles, through the spigot with a bottling wand attached.

They offer no benefits over any other #2 plastic bucket when used for long term aging.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Following this with interest. I have let wine sit in a glass carboy for a year. I have been a little concerned about O₂ slipping in through the bung & plastic bubbler, or just back-burping in response to temperature and/or pressure changes. There’s also the light issue.
Recently, I picked up a quantity of corny kegs cheap from a few guys who brewed together, but gave it up during Covid. Last night I put 5 gallons of muscadine wine into one of these kegs, added Ascorbic acid, and purged the headspace with nitrogen. It can sit in the utility room that stays 45-50° through the winter, and then I will put it into the cooler when it starts warming up in the spring.
It already tastes great; I’m just hoping that I can resist sampling it away while it ages.
My intention is to leave it in the keg, and dispense it to bottles as needed using nitrogen. I can keep the keg at stable temperature in the keezer where the keg footprint is small, but have nowhere to properly store two dozen or so wine bottles.

 

[IslandLizard]

Bottling buckets [...]

They're only used for 1 hour or so. [...]

Some homebrewers ferment in those "bottling buckets" (with the spigot mounted) as it's easy to take samples, and later, when bottling or kegging they dispense from the spigot, instead of using a racking cane.

As long as one can keep the spigot sanitary and from leaking, it's a decent option.*

* Now for some reason, whenever there's a bucket with a spigot on the floor, I seem to have an inclination to step on such spigot, causing leaks or worse: "Where's all that water/beer coming from? Ah, sh..!"

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Just for the record:
Bottling buckets are simply 6.5 gallon #2 plastic brew buckets, with a spigot mounted in the side, near the bottom.

They're only used for 1 hour or so, the time it takes to add pre-dissolved priming sugar, fill with fermented beer from the fermenter (by racking), followed by filling the bottles, through the spigot with a bottling wand attached.

They offer no benefits over any other #2 plastic bucket when used for long term aging.

I see. That's what I wanted to know and that makes sense they're only used for bottling. I was thinking bottling also meant aging like when you bottle wine in bottles to age them lol.

 

[whoaru99]

Corny kegs may not be perfect either, but around here they go for $15-$50.

That with a purge of nitrogen or argon is probably what I'll do if I am going to (try to) keep bulk around that long without bottling.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Corny kegs may not be perfect either, but around here they go for $15-$50.

That with a purge of nitrogen or argon is probably what I'll do if I am going to (try to) keep bulk around that long without bottling.

So most people bulk age wine from 6-24 months before bottle conditioning from what im reading. That's a good price point though. I'll Check them out, thanks

 

[JAReeves]

FWIW, I'm going to echo the aging in corny kegs. Even a little CO2 in the headspace to avoid O2 is satisfactory when you bottle under low pressure from one. It's not enough fizz to make it awkward. You can also go whole ham and make a sparkler. My Muscat fermented with 1/2# of whole cone Cascade is making people way happier than I expected. It's very fizzy.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

So ik typically you use stainless for fermenting or storage of alcohol but what about food grade steel barrels? Not regular steel barrels bc I believe they're epoxy coated or something.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

What yall think? What's the ph of wine typically?

 

[whoaru99]

Are you making 50-ish gallon batches?

 

[Closet Fermenter]

So ik typically you use stainless for fermenting or storage of alcohol but what about food grade steel barrels? Not regular steel barrels bc I believe they're epoxy coated or something.

Personally, I would have some concerns if there’s a coating. Also, I’d really want to know what was in there before.

The biggest issue would be the size. I have no where to store a 55 gallon barrel. More importantly, there’s no way I can lift it and put it in a keezer! Even though it may be possible to put one in a keezer, (not mine) empty, and fill once inside, then you have an issue with dispensing. I could probably add a tapping head without too much trouble, but it really wouldn’t be worth it. Also, I never have more than 5-6 gallons in a batch, which goes conveniently in a corny. Now, if I had a nice consistently cool basement where I could put it up on a stand and gravity dispense, I’d consider it, ‘cause I would make more wine if I had said basement!

For me, I’d rather be dealing with a dozen 5 gallon corny kegs than one of those big boys.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Personally, I would have some concerns if there’s a coating. Also, I’d really want to know what was in there before.

The biggest issue would be the size. I have no where to store a 55 gallon barrel. More importantly, there’s no way I can lift it and put it in a keezer! Even though it may be possible to put one in a keezer, (not mine) empty, and fill once inside, then you have an issue with dispensing. I could probably add a tapping head without too much trouble, but it really wouldn’t be worth it. Also, I never have more than 5-6 gallons in a batch, which goes conveniently in a corny. Now, if I had a nice consistently cool basement where I could put it up on a stand and gravity dispense, I’d consider it, ‘cause I would make more wine if I had said basement!

For me, I’d rather be dealing with a dozen 5 gallon corny kegs than one of those big boys.

Yea I thought about the coating being a issue for sure. I'm thinking cost lol. I'll probably just get some pet carboys tbh

 

[JAReeves]

Yea I thought about the coating being a issue for sure. I'm thinking cost lol. I'll probably just get some pet carboys tbh

If you're anywhere near Los Angeles, I have two glass ones you can have for free.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

If you're anywhere near Los Angeles, I have two glass ones you can have for free.

I'm on the east coast in NC thanks though for sure!

 

[jschein]

I'm on the east coast in NC thanks though for sure!

Have you checked out Craigslist? I see glass carboys all the time

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I'm on the east coast in NC thanks though for sure!

How far are you from Charlotte?

Glass carboys, fermenters, homebrewing
Glass carboys, fermenters, homebrewing - general for sale - by owner - craigslist

 

[IslandLizard]

Just make sure the glass carboys you buy are not recently made ones, (in the past 10 years), and often sold by Northern Brewer, MoreBeer, or even your LHBS, and such.

The suspicious ones are of the "ribbed" kind, having horizontal and vertical "ribs" on the outside. That doesn't mean all ribbed carboys are bad. The newer manufactured ones (~10 years or younger) are those that can be suspicious, due to poor manufacturing standards and total lack of QC. Some of those that broke had areas in the wall that were less than 1/16" thin! Imagine 5-6 gallons of liquid in those... and you're lifting them up with bare hands... Many horror movies would pale against that thought!

Older carboys were made better. Look for molded country names in the bottom, such as Mexico or Italy.
The old ones usually have greenish glass and are probably better, although their usage history may play a role too.

My advice: Best to stay well away from all of them!

 

[mashdar]

I shattered one glass carboy and that was enough for me. I'm very lucky it didn't injure me. IMO there's no reason to use glass, even for extended aging.

edit: I do some aging in 1gal glass, but IMO that's a whole different animal.

 

[whoaru99]

I will beat the horse... get some corny kegs as previously suggested.

Easier to handle than the flexible PET carboys, near infinitely more durable than glass carboy (and to some degree PET too), can pressure seal them with nitrogen or argon (some assert CO2 low dose works without making fizzy wine), blocks light, small footprint, can even dispense from them, wine on tap.