Priming question

[tehbeast87]

Hey all,

I'm new to the forum and home brew in general. I want to make a cider with about an 8% abv or so. I am wondering how much sugar should be added to a 1 gallon carboy to achieve this and what the OG and SG should/might be around. I am using Edwort's Apfelwein as a guideline and noticed he used 2lbs of sugar for his 5 gallon carboys which yielded him about 6% abv. I will be using English Cider 775 yeast and am a little concerned about overflow using this yeast and too much sugar trying to achieve my desired 8%. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. As for my priming question now, I am wondering how much sugar should be used at this stage as well, I know 3/4 is used for 5 gallons but am wondering how much should be used for 1 gallon to achieve the 8% and not create bottle bombs. Hopefully this all makes sense, any info is greatly appreciated

 

[Grizzlybrew]

If my calculations are correct, you are looking for the following:

OG 1.076
FG 1.015 (based on WLP775's 80% attenuation)
ABV = 8%

As far as how much sugar?... Are you doing a one gallon batch?

Sucrose will add 46 ppg/lb, meaning one lbs of sugar in a one gallon batch will give you an OG of 1.046. Take a gravity reading of your apple juice (probably around 1.040) and add the necessary sugar. If it is 1.040, then you will need just over 3/4 lbs (.7826 lbs to e exact) to reach 1.076 for a one gallon batch.

As far as priming, you will need 3/20 C (3/4 divided by 5) of sugar... jk... kinda. Use weight, not volumes if you don't want bottle bombs. Make sure you leave the cider until it has fermented completely (look for consistent gravity readings across several days). With such a high alcohol content, you probably want to bulk age anyway.

For 1 gallon of cider that fermented at 65 deg that you wish to have 2.25 volumes of CO2 (middle of the road for ciders), you will need .7 oz of sucrose for a one gallon batch.

If you're curious, here's how I came up with it:

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp775.html to get the apparent attenuation rate of your desired yeast...

http://www.steubrew.com/alcohol-content-calculator.html guessed until I hit your desired 8% mark. Remember 80% of the 76 gravity points (1.076) being consumed will leave you with only 15 gravity points or a FG of 1.015 and an ABV of 8%.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html to determine how much priming sugar you will need.

The calculators were selected at random (the first ones I came across)... there's a million out there.

 

[1Brotherbill]

If my calculations are correct, you are looking for the following:

OG 1.076
FG 1.015 (based on WLP775's 80% attenuation)
ABV = 8%

As far as how much sugar?... Are you doing a one gallon batch?

Sucrose will add 46 ppg/lb, meaning one lbs of sugar in a one gallon batch will give you an OG of 1.046. Take a gravity reading of your apple juice (probably around 1.040) and add the necessary sugar. If it is 1.040, then you will need just over 3/4 lbs (.7826 lbs to e exact) to reach 1.076 for a one gallon batch.

As far as priming, you will need 3/20 C (3/4 divided by 5) of sugar... jk... kinda. Use weight, not volumes if you don't want bottle bombs. Make sure you leave the cider until it has fermented completely (look for consistent gravity readings across several days). With such a high alcohol content, you probably want to bulk age anyway.

For 1 gallon of cider that fermented at 65 deg that you wish to have 2.25 volumes of CO2 (middle of the road for ciders), you will need .7 oz of sucrose for a one gallon batch.

If you're curious, here's how I came up with it:

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp775.html to get the apparent attenuation rate of your desired yeast...

http://www.steubrew.com/alcohol-content-calculator.html guessed until I hit your desired 8% mark. Remember 80% of the 76 gravity points (1.076) being consumed will leave you with only 15 gravity points or a FG of 1.015 and an ABV of 8%.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html to determine how much priming sugar you will need.

The calculators were selected at random (the first ones I came across)... there's a million out there.

I have to tell you that the 80% for that yeast is a minimum. It will probably go way dryer than 80%. The web site even says that it will ferment dry. Which means it will go closer to 1.000 then the 1.015. Just a heads up.

 

[tehbeast87]

All that actually makes perfect sense even though I don't know a lot about brewing. Now on the bulk aging, do I cap off the carboy and let it carbonate or let it sit for a while with the airlock still in place then bottle it to get the carbonation?

 

[Grizzlybrew]

I have to tell you that the 80% for that yeast is a minimum. It will probably go way dryer than 80%. The web site even says that it will ferment dry. Which means it will go closer to 1.000 then the 1.015. Just a heads up.

Good call Brotherbill. I went back and looked - you're right. I didn't really pay attention to the "<" sign in front of the 80. I should have known because it was claiming usage for wines also. Plus, cider yeasts usually finish dry.

You either need to use a clean yeast like Irish ale yeast (at the lowest acceptable ferm temperature) that will crap out early, leaving you with some residual sweetness. Or, if you prefer a dry cider, aim for an OG of 1.059 with the expectation that you will finish just under 1.000 (using the WLP775). That will also give you the 8% you are looking for.

 

[Grizzlybrew]

All that actually makes perfect sense even though I don't know a lot about brewing. Now on the bulk aging, do I cap off the carboy and let it carbonate or let it sit for a while with the airlock still in place then bottle it to get the carbonation?

I would just leave the airlock on. The CO2 on top of the cider will protect against oxidation and the airlock will allow for pressure changes due to any potential temperature fluctuations. The conditioning will allow the alcohol to become more blended from a flavor perspective and also allow the yeast to "clean up" the cider, getting rid of some undesirable compounds.

 

[tehbeast87]

I appreiate all the info. Now if I go with an ale yeast or something designed for beers that will "crap out" early, should I change the amount of sugar added? I assume the OG and SG change with ale yeast since its lifespan is shorter? Also, would it be possible to carbonate in the 1 gallon carboy then bottle it to reduce sediment at the bottom even more? I was thinking of using a screw cap on the top, let it carb then bottle it.

 

[vespa2t]

Cider is a slightly different beast than beer, thats for sure. its easier in alot of respects, but can be difficult toward the end to get the results you want.

I typically used S04 Ale yeast for my cider. If you let that one go, it will ferment way beyond what I like in a cider and will go down to sub 1.0 FGs. If you want a sweeter cider, then you are going to have to keep on top of the SG and stop it via cold crash, or chemical methods. I have used S04 to create a 9.0%, but it was pretty dry, and here months later still isnt really ready to drink.

Priming and carbing is where the real difference with the cider comes in. My 9.0% dry stuff isnt carbing even with priming sugar, I think the yeast retired to Florida. With my sweet ciders, I cold crash them at 1.020. Then I bottle and cap WITHOUT priming sugar since there is still ALOT of fermentables in there. This is where the 'touchy' part comes in. There is too much fermentables to not pay attention to them. Bottle bombs guarranteed, unless you test a bottle every couple days, and then put all of them in the fridge when you get a good carbonation. They cant ever be stored out of the fridge after that. Its something I have been doing for a while, and still makes me really nervous. I've switched to kegging my cider so I dont have to get out the face shield and welding gloves to test bottles

 

[Grizzlybrew]

I appreiate all the info. Now if I go with an ale yeast or something designed for beers that will "crap out" early, should I change the amount of sugar added? I assume the OG and SG change with ale yeast since its lifespan is shorter? Also, would it be possible to carbonate in the 1 gallon carboy then bottle it to reduce sediment at the bottom even more? I was thinking of using a screw cap on the top, let it carb then bottle it.

Second thought on ale yeast - to get 74% attenuation (Irish Ale) AND 8% alcohol, your OG would have to be 1.080 and the FG would be 1.020 (that's pretty sweet to have no bittering balance really). Remember, attenuation is the percentage of sugars the yeast can consume (as long as they stay within their alcohol tolerance). I'm not sure how attenuation is affected by fully fermentable sugars (like sucrose) when they make up a large portion of the fermentables bill.

As far as carbing and then bottling - probably not a good idea. Some people enjoy "still" cider (i.e. flat, wine-like), so you don't necessarily have to carb. If you want carbonated cider and you do carb in the carboy (which may not be pressure-rated), you could explode the carboy and even if you didn't, the second you popped the top, you would lose carbonation. And, if the cider was finished producing CO2, you could oxidize the cider trying to get it into the bottles unless you purged the bottles with CO2 first.

Patience is a virtue... letting the bottles carb in place and then refrigerating for at least a week should allow most of the sediment to settle out to the bottom. If you are really looking to reduce sediment, make just over a gallon, maybe a gallon plus a half-quart. When you transfer to your bottling bucket/vessel, just leave the dip-tube off the bottom of the carboy, just over the sediment. You'll leave 1-2 cups in the carboy but will have "cleaner" cider. With less yeast transferring to the bottles, they will most likely require more time to carbonate. Also, if you bulk age for an extended period of time (several months), you might have to re-introduce yeast to carb the bottles if almost all yeasts have settled out.

 

[vespa2t]

An ale yeast will most definitely ferment down lower than when it is working with wort.

Also, an ale yeast like S04 will settle into a really tight thin layer on the bottom if you cold crash for a few days. Waste is minimized. After bottling, some more cold conditioning in the fridge will make it clear as day.

I would never recommend carbing in carboy...thats asking for major trouble!
And carbing cider in bottles is a risk too as I mentioned before. Carb at your own peril