Primary > Secondary

[FlyGuy]

I used to use secondaries faithfully, but I have been moving away from them after hearing that many high profile brewers (e.g., Jamil Zainasheff , John Palmer) no longer use them or advocate their use for all beers.

Honestly, I have never noticed any differences in clarity or taste between beers that were bottled from the primary vs. the secondary. Beer in a secondary certainly looks clearer than beer in a primary, but I don't think it makes much of a difference after 3 weeks in the bottle. All my beers have been crystal clear from the bottle.

I pretty much only use secondaries now for long-term volume conditioning.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I mentioned it earlier that it really is a matter of personal taste. I even recommend using ceramic mugs to cover the cloudiness as a simple solution.

Of course, having 8-10 full kegs for any period of time can reduce any anxiety waiting for your brews to clear.

 

[rfidd]

Along these lines-what is it that makes the yeast drop out of suspension once it's racked to a secondary? I racked a blond on Saturday that had been in the primary for 10 days..in the primary there were tons of yeast in suspension, and even some visible movement. A half hour after racking there was a little less than an inch of trub, and the beer was visibly clearer. What is it about an new empty container that makes it clear so quickly?

Visible movement? Sure those aren't sea monkeys?

Rick

 

[HCNate]

I am trying the extended primary thing for my latest beer. Thus far, it is at 2 1/2 weeks. Is it possible to throw gelatin right in the primary, or will there be some adverse side effects? What type of gelatin do you use?

For those that have done the extended primary, do you usually go for 3 or 4 weeks?

Thanks!

 

[BierMuncher]

I am trying the extended primary thing for my latest beer. Thus far, it is at 2 1/2 weeks. Is it possible to throw gelatin right in the primary, or will there be some adverse side effects? What type of gelatin do you use?

For those that have done the extended primary, do you usually go for 3 or 4 weeks?

Thanks!

The only down side I can think of is if you want to harvest and wash the yeast cake for future use. You’d be liable to harvest gelatin with your yeast and that might impair the yeasts performance next time around.

You can use store bought unflavored gelatin granules…usually in the baking section. I’d suggest 2.5 Tsp for a five gallon batch. Soak it in a cup of water for 30 minutes. Bring to a slight boil, stir to dissolve, then cool a bit and toss it in.

 

[Beerthoven]

You can use store bought unflavored gelatin granules…usually in the baking section. I’d suggest 2.5 Tsp for a five gallon batch. Soak it in a cup of water for 30 minutes. Bring to a slight boil, stir to dissolve, then cool a bit and toss it in.

I'd like to try this. Do you have to add yeast at bottling time, or is there enough left to carbonate the bottles?

 

[Beerthoven]

Hmmm...maybe I should reconsider. I don't have a chiller set up yet, so I can't crash cool it. I think I'll leave it in primary until week 3, and then rack to secondary for a week or so to clear. I don't want yeasty beer, and neither does SWMBO.

I never racked this beer to secondary. I left it in the primary for about 4 weeks and then bottled. It never did clear in the primary, and there is a much thicker than usual layer of sediment in the bottle. It doesn't taste yeasty though, and it seemed to carb up quick.

 

[FlyGuy]

I am trying the extended primary thing for my latest beer. Thus far, it is at 2 1/2 weeks. Is it possible to throw gelatin right in the primary, or will there be some adverse side effects? What type of gelatin do you use?

For those that have done the extended primary, do you usually go for 3 or 4 weeks?

Thanks!

I wouldn't do it in the primary, but I guess it wouldn't really hurt.

Why not just add it when you rack to your keg? It works really well because the whirlpool effect of the siphoning beer mixes the gelatin solution in really well, ensuring it contacts the maximum amount of beer.

 

[HCNate]

I wouldn't do it in the primary, but I guess it wouldn't really hurt.

Why not just add it when you rack to your keg? It works really well because the whirlpool effect of the siphoning beer mixes the gelatin solution in really well, ensuring it contacts the maximum amount of beer.

If only I kegged. I was perusing some of the issues with bottling and having the yeast fall out. I guess I'll just have to roll with a secondary in order to clear it up.

Thanks for your help!

 

[FlyGuy]

If only I kegged. I was perusing some of the issues with bottling and having the yeast fall out. I guess I'll just have to roll with a secondary in order to clear it up.

Thanks for your help!

Ah, OK. Then just add it to your bottling bucket. Same effect.

Just a note, though -- the gelatin finings are going to interfere with your bottle carbonation. Expect the process to take longer, and you are probably going to need to periodically give those bottles a gentle shake to get the yeast back in suspension and back to work.

 

[BierMuncher]

I'd like to try this. Do you have to add yeast at bottling time, or is there enough left to carbonate the bottles?

That’s a good question I’m trying to answer as we speak with my mini experiment.

I believe there is adequate yeast in suspension unless you force filter or kill off the yeast with Camden tablets. The fact that I still have yeast sediment in my kegs would bear this out.

My experiment won’t be done for a few more weeks…but I’ll post when ready.

If it were me, I'd go for it.

 

[Beerthoven]

That’s a good question I’m trying to answer as we speak with my mini experiment.

I believe there is adequate yeast in suspension unless you force filter or kill off the yeast with Camden tablets. The fact that I still have yeast sediment in my kegs would bear this out.

My experiment won’t be done for a few more weeks…but I’ll post when ready.

If it were me, I'd go for it.

Thanks, I saw that post. Maybe I'll split a batch into two secondaries, add gelatin to one of them, and see how the final bottles compare. Of course, that means I'll have to go buy at least one more secondary...

 

[Bobby_M]

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out. Think about this for a second. You have a relatively dense layer, say 1" thick, at the bottom of your primary. It's not like this layer is positively charged and bouncing new yeast off that would otherwise settle down. If yeast continues to stay suspended, it's more likely that it's still working to condition the beer and I'd say that's a good thing.

The only caveat is that you have to be really careful when you rack out of primary because the two-stage racking you get with using a secondary gives you one extra opportunity to avoid sucking trub.

 

[BierMuncher]

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out. Think about this for a second. You have a relatively dense layer, say 1" thick, at the bottom of your primary...

I don’t know. Even before I started using gelatin, it seemed that following a 7-day primary, within an hour or two of racking to a secondary there was a 1/8 inch layer of sediment on the bottom. Now with the gelatin, it’s only about 15 minutes before there is a distinct layer of sediment is noticeable. Maybe these were the Hatfield yeast refusing to associate with the McCoy yeast in the primary.

 

[Beerthoven]

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out...

You are probably right that there isn't anything magical about the secondary container itself, but maybe the racking process is what causes the effect. I did a quick search on yeast flocculance in an electronic database of biology journals I have access to through my work. A few of the articles I have found indicate that disturbance of the physical medium can cause yeast to flocculate and fall out of suspension. Racking seems like a disturbance of the physical medium to me.

Other factors that influence flocculation include temperature, pH, oxygen and nitrogen content, availability of nutrients, age and size of the cells, generation number, method of storage, pitching rate, and aeration. Flocculation is highly strain dependent, poorly understood, and hard to predict.

If I get a chance, I'll read some of these articles more closely. They are pretty technical, so I could be wrong about this.

 

[BierMuncher]

I still contend that there is nothing magical about a secondary that make the yeast want to floc out.

Here are a few pics of my secondary with gelatin only 24 hours in.

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess one of the takeaways at least is the fact that gelatin does aid in faster clearing and if you want to partake, it's best to do so in secondary. My real concern with racking directly on gelatin in secondary is that force floc'ing (another one for the innuendo list) is probably negatively affecting the conditioning aspect of the secondary. I'd probably want to let it sit in primary for at least 2 weeks (or a good week after active fermentation ends) before doing this. You need yeast for conditioning.

Just the very act of racking to secondary, even sans gelatin, is why Jamil Z thinks a lot of beers don't reach their full potential. You're taking away the beer making machines before they're done.

 

[BierMuncher]

I guess one of the takeaways at least is the fact that gelatin does aid in faster clearing and if you want to partake, it's best to do so in secondary. My real concern with racking directly on gelatin in secondary is that force floc'ing (another one for the innuendo list) is probably negatively affecting the conditioning aspect of the secondary. I'd probably want to let it sit in primary for at least 2 weeks (or a good week after active fermentation ends) before doing this. You need yeast for conditioning.

Just the very act of racking to secondary, even sans gelatin, is why Jamil Z thinks a lot of beers don't reach their full potential. You're taking away the beer making machines before they're done.

True. I gotta quit drinking so fast. :cross:

I guess the fact that most my brews are lighter ABV, session ales and simpler grain bills, maybe I'm not sacrificing as much as a more complex, bigger beers that really need time to meld and mellow.

Might be a good poll discussion: Would you consider yourself (generally) a quick draw when it comes to brewing (3 weeks or less from boil to tap) or more of a tortoise (measure my brew in months...not weeks)?

 

[Atomic]

Hey everyone i just stumbled on to this website today and now wish i would have found it sooner. I just got a home brew kit for christmas and was so excited to get started i only went by the directions that came with the kit. I had muntons pre-hopped nut brown ale and i started fermenting in the bucket because my glass carboy was missing the stopper but i was fine with that because the instructions told me to place in primary until the airlock bubbles once a minute and then rack to secondary which empties my bucket so i can prepare for bottling. So 7 days in the primary and i got a stopper for my carboy the airlock slowed to the 1 burp a minute so i sanitized everything and gently racked to my carboy. MY question now being is it has been sitting in the carboy for about 48 hours and the airlock is bubbling like once every 2 minutes or longer is this normal? also when i racked there was no foam in the bucket also there is none in the carboy maybe a few bubbles. but it smelled like beer so i think im ok

 

[Bosium]

Just the very act of racking to secondary, even sans gelatin, is why Jamil Z thinks a lot of beers don't reach their full potential. You're taking away the beer making machines before they're done.

I couldn't agree more. My beers improved hugely in every way when I stopped using secondaries. I only ever use one now if I am dry hopping, but even so if I don't intend to use the yeast cake I might just dry hop in the primary.

I don't touch my beer for at least three weeks now, sometimes four - when the beer is clear and the yeast have all flocculated.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Hey everyone i just stumbled on to this website today and now wish i would have found it sooner. I just got a home brew kit for christmas and was so excited to get started i only went by the directions that came with the kit. I had muntons pre-hopped nut brown ale and i started fermenting in the bucket because my glass carboy was missing the stopper but i was fine with that because the instructions told me to place in primary until the airlock bubbles once a minute and then rack to secondary which empties my bucket so i can prepare for bottling. So 7 days in the primary and i got a stopper for my carboy the airlock slowed to the 1 burp a minute so i sanitized everything and gently racked to my carboy. MY question now being is it has been sitting in the carboy for about 48 hours and the airlock is bubbling like once every 2 minutes or longer is this normal? also when i racked there was no foam in the bucket also there is none in the carboy maybe a few bubbles. but it smelled like beer so i think im ok

 

[mixmasterob]

Here are a few pics of my secondary with gelatin only 24 hours in.

View attachment 2412

View attachment 2413

View attachment 2414

for those who do secondary, how much do you usually lose during the transfer? more than a gallon? i just racked to a secondary for the first time and lost a good bit. it looks like atleast a gallon, kinda bummed about it...any tips so that this doesn't happen again? i was using an auto-siphon.

 

[mixmasterob]

anyone got an idea?

 

[BierMuncher]

If your primary is allowed to rest long enough...you should lose maybe one inch or so to trub. Since you're racking to a secondary and using gelatin...you can be a bit more aggressive in sucking up a bit of "muck" because it will quickly fall out in the second tank.

 

[cooper]

I couldn't agree more. My beers improved hugely in every way when I stopped using secondaries. I only ever use one now if I am dry hopping, but even so if I don't intend to use the yeast cake I might just dry hop in the primary.

I don't touch my beer for at least three weeks now, sometimes four - when the beer is clear and the yeast have all flocculated.

I can see how this would work out well for low to med ABV beers. How about the ones that are a little higher in gravity? Would a person still be able to let a 1.080 beer sit in the primary for four weeks and then bottle/keg and be all right?

 

[Revvy]

I can see how this would work out well for low to med ABV beers. How about the ones that are a little higher in gravity? Would a person still be able to let a 1.080 beer sit in the primary for four weeks and then bottle/keg and be all right?

I've been doing it all the time for the last 2-3 years, and never had a problem. Even did it with my 1.090 Belgian strong.

 

[EvilGnome6]

What about doing a long primary (3-4 weeks, so that the FG has been stable for at least a week) followed by a short secondary for clearing? I've had good results doing this but I'm wondering if there is something magical about not using a secondary at all.

 

[Revvy]

What about doing a long primary (3-4 weeks, so that the FG has been stable for at least a week) followed by a short secondary for clearing? I've had good results doing this but I'm wondering if there is something magical about not using a secondary at all.

I've never seen the need to secondary at all after four weeks in primary. That's the point of doing it, to skip using a primary.

And the end of the month I have a nice compacted yeast cake at the bottom, as well as crystal clear, and crisp tasting beer. I have even judges note the clarity in several beers, over the years.

 

[cooper]

I've been doing it all the time for the last 2-3 years, and never had a problem. Even did it with my 1.090 Belgian strong.

Hell yeah! That's great news to me too cause the less chance that I have of messing something up the better I feel about it. I'm always meticulous in my sanitation but there's still always that little worry in the back of your mind about some other little bug getting in there and having their way with my beautiful wort before the yeasties do.

I'm definitely game about giving it a shot and seeing what happens. Although I'm worried about what will happen that might change the flavor when I don't condition in the secondary for a few months... I'll just have to give it a shot and if I like it then I'll stick to it... it's my beer anyway and my opinion is all that really matters right?

 

[camneel83]

I plan on trying not bothering with the secondary. My only concern would be that I would want to reuse the yeast cake cause I don't feel like spending 7 bucks for new yeast. And I'm too lazy to clean the yeast myself and then make a starter. I currently have a Belgian going in the primary so would it be ok to throw my next Belgian wort onto that cake, trub and all. I would guess that I could get away with it one time but the trub would eventually start building on itself and just get to thick.
What if you dry hopped your primary? Could you reuse the yeast cake then if you were making a similiar beer the next time?