Primary Fermenting in a Corny Keg

[GroovePuppy]

I ferment, then at the end of primary I let the pressure rise to volumes of carbonation desired (taking into consideration the higher pressure for higher temperature at fermentation), then when it is done seal it up completely and crash. When I hook my tank up to transfer, I am at the right volumes and transfer accordingly based on that. If by some chance I am under/over I force or bleed, let it rest, then transfer under counter-pressure into my target keg. Since the primary has vented off the bad gas during the first part of fermentation, the last few gravity points and the keg carbonating aren't a problem.

Sounds good, but how do you know what the pressure is?

 

[WortMonger]

Well, with the help of a handy-dandy pressure gauge of course... LOL! I use a spunding valve, but in my latest brew I just pull the pressure relief on the keg while reading the gauge. I can't wait to try out the new spunding valve on my next beer. This last time it had a leak and I didn't carbonate after primary so I had to prime.

 

[Sanspareil]

Hello all,
I have been fermenting 5 gal batches in 5 gal cornies and 5 gal conicals. I use ( and am thinking about manufacturing and selling) a Burton Union Unit. It is great. It is basically a SS canister with a sealable lid. In the lid I drill a hole and add an air lock. Then I drill a hole in the side just above the bottom, and install a quick release and tubing that is connected to the "out" poppet. Then I drill a hole in the other side just below the top, and install a quick release and tubing to the "in" poppet. The concept is that the krausen enters the Burton unit at the top and falls to the bottom of the unit, where the yeast settles to the bottom and the liquid flows back into the corny. CO2 is allowed to escape throught the air lock in the top. No loss of beer and you can top harvest your yeast. Also, there is a side benefit of some yeast making back into the corny and "repitching".
This unit eliminates the need for fermcap.

 

[Layne]

I'd like to see a pic of that.

 

[WortMonger]

I second that request! I thought of this a while back and never manufactured one, due to me using pressurized fermentation. But... I would love to figure something that did the yeast cropping and remained under pressure, so sans the air lock. Please post a picture for us of your union... please.

 

[Sanspareil]

I'll see if I can post a picture for you. I don't know if it would work without the air lock. When there is a lot of pressure built up I think the beer might go up both tubes instead of just one. I could be wrong. The other problem is that kegs are made for pressure, this doesn't have that kind of pressure seal. Not that it couldn't be done. Now you have given me a challenge! How much peak pressure do you think you are getting?
P.S. How do I post a picture?

 

[WortMonger]

I'll see if I can post a picture for you. I don't know if it would work without the air lock. When there is a lot of pressure built up I think the beer might go up both tubes instead of just one. I could be wrong. The other problem is that kegs are made for pressure, this doesn't have that kind of pressure seal.

At the beginning of fermentation there is very little pressure (2-5 psi), and if all the components were at the same pressure it should work just fine. I'm thinking of something that utilizes a full keg, with the gas port used for the krausen rise into the union, and the beer out port used for returning beer from the union.

Like this:

...only with an adjustable pressure relief valve, pressure holding lid, and with a keg connection tap in place of the "green thing" and the tubing. This just gets the idea across. I suppose an old pressure cooker might work nicely.

Not that it couldn't be done. Now you have given me a challenge! How much peak pressure do you think you are getting?

I figure (playing it safe for all my uses) if it could handle 40 psi @ 74*F, I would be willing to use it. Usually the pressure wouldn't exceed 20 psi during the carbonation cycle, and maybe 10 psi during the initial primary fermentation. So, 40 psi to be safe for fabrication and for me using it... Just in case ya know?

P.S. How do I post a picture?

Well, I posted this out of my gallery, so I just went there and copied the direct link/ hit the picture in the message window to this reply/ and pasted it where I wanted it. If the picture is on a web link you can do the same from there. Otherwise, you need to upload it to the forum via your gallery and then post it like I did. Maybe others know other ways, but that is as good as my knowledge gets me to posting things on here, lol.

 

[Sanspareil]

That is a very slick idea. One of the problems with my unit is it needs to be above the fermentation chamber (whatever that may be, corny, bucket, conical.) I place mine on a shelving unit that I have reconfigured for my fermentors. But it can be problematic if one is lagering in a small frig. Your unit would fit nicely on top of your keg. With a small enough pressure cooker you probably could fit it in a lagering frig if needed as well.
My first generations of this unit were all parts from Home Depot and Lowes. Maybe you could find a PVC part or parts to emulate that machined nylon piece. If it works as planned you can then spend the $ to have it made in Nylon of SS.
The only part I am not sure of with your unit is, can you remove the unit and still be under pressure? If not can you reconfigure your connection from the actual canister with some kind of quick disconnects?
I like to remove my unit to harvest after the intitial fermentation has finished (Approx. 36 hrs.) I get an incredibly creamy almost pure yeast harvest.
Here are a couple of bad pictures of my unit, Camera phone, sorry.

 

[WortMonger]

That is a very slick idea. One of the problems with my unit is it needs to be above the fermentation chamber (whatever that may be, corny, bucket, conical.) I place mine on a shelving unit that I have reconfigured for my fermentors. But it can be problematic if one is lagering in a small frig. Your unit would fit nicely on top of your keg. With a small enough pressure cooker you probably could fit it in a lagering frig if needed as well.

Thank you very much. This was conceived before I started pressurized fermentation. All union style contraptions need to be above the fermenter to replace the beer off the yeast. Otherwise, the beer would completely fill the union making it nothing more than a totally enclosed blow off bucket. Fridge height is the reason I designed this version with a sauce pan. Large enough surface area to contain the yeast and dump the beer, but short enough to fit most fridges while on top of the keg. I would like to see what pressure are possible with those containers like you used??? Hmmm, time for some research I guess.

My first generations of this unit were all parts from Home Depot and Lowes. Maybe you could find a PVC part or parts to emulate that machined nylon piece. If it works as planned you can then spend the $ to have it made in Nylon of SS.

I doubt I could find that piece, but they are cheap enough to have fabricated at a shop out of nylon. I wouldn't go with that design now, even not under pressure like normal unions work. I want to rig it up for a tap connector for simplicity in disconnection from the keg, as well as sanitation and a closed system fermenter.

The only part I am not sure of with your unit is, can you remove the unit and still be under pressure? If not can you reconfigure your connection from the actual canister with some kind of quick disconnects?
I like to remove my unit to harvest after the initial fermentation has finished (Approx. 36 hrs.) I get an incredibly creamy almost pure yeast harvest.
Here are a couple of bad pictures of my unit, Camera phone, sorry.

The drawing, nope... couldn't disconnect it and maintain pressure. A new design is needed that does so though. The harvesting factor is what I am after, and it sounds like you are doing what I hope to achieve when I get around to it. Sure would beat washing yeast, and the viability should be off the charts in comparison. Keep me/us informed with more of your progress. Very interesting stuff these unions.

 

[Sanspareil]

"and the viability should be off the charts in comparison"

It is amazing how much yeast you can get just from blow off. My next generation will be one with a lower fitting 1 1/2" to 2" up from the bottom, just to see how much yeast I could actually get. I pitched a 2nd batch of a Belgian Trippel the other day with some harvested yeast and it took off like a crazy. I thought my fermentor was going to explode! LOL.

I doubt that my unit as it stands could handle any significant pressure. If I were you I would look into a screw on top or as you stated earlier a pressure cooker style lid.

 

[Sherpa FE]

When I get home from Iraq (30 days & counting) I am going to start fermenting in my kegs. I do have a couple of questions.

1) How do you remove the poppet thingy on the QD?
2) Has anyone put a new beer onto the existing yeast cake? Would it cause too much foaming?
3) I saw that some people removed the dip tube, why would you do this?
4) Is fermcap really necessary or just a nice thing to use?

Thanks
Josh

 

[Tom]

Thank you very much for your service.

1) no need to, I just hook up a hose to a regular gas-out QD into a half-filled container to serve as an airlock
2) I haven't done it in a corny
3) I have one extra diptube with 1" cut off that I use to transfer out, that leaves the trub behind
4) I haven't been all that impressed with FermCap. Lagers have minimal kraeusen. Ales I get between 4-4.5 Gallons of beer.

 

[Pickngrin]

+1 Thanks for your service, Josh.

I've been very pleased with the Fermcap S.

 

[bad coffee]

I took out my dip tube so I wouldn't have to clean it.

I'm thinking of putting it back in for the next ferment and pushing to the serving keg with gas.

B

 

[Sherpa FE]

Thanks for the replies,
I have another question, thinking about adding another batch onto the yeast cake seems to be a problematic process, seeing as how the fermentation is almost violent in a glass carboy.

Since that is probably the case, does anyone wash their yeast from a corny? Do you just dump it into a container and let it settle out?

Thanks again

P.S. It has been an honor and priveledge to serve our county for the past 19 years.

 

[Tom]

I think it is a good idea to wash your yeast and then use only what you need. Have you checked out mrmalty.com ? that is Jamil's website on yeast amounts for different fermentations. That could tell you how much yeast to use for each batch.

 

[Sherpa FE]

I think it is a good idea to wash your yeast and then use only what you need. Have you checked out mrmalty.com ? that is Jamil's website on yeast amounts for different fermentations. That could tell you how much yeast to use for each batch.

Tom,
good info, and I did already know that, I guess my wording may have been wrong.

For the people that do re-use the yeast at the end, what is your method for getting it out of the keg, do you pump it out, dump it, or not worry about it?

Josh

 

[Flywheel]

I just read this whole thread. This sounds like a great idea....thanks everyone.

 

[martymoat]

I did not read this entire thread but i am sure glad to see it here with 14 pages and going. I have been fermenting my 5 gal batches in kegs for about 2 years now.

The one thing i notice is i see a bunch of pictures of tubing connected to QDs then the keg....?
maybe it has been mentioned but why not just use

1/2 ID Silicone tube like the one sold on more beer. This gets placed over the gas in post and creates a good seal with the silicone tube and O-ring on the post.

And also no need to be cutting dip tubes, just pump a ton of Co2 in and corbra tap off the yeaties

 

[WortMonger]

For the people that do re-use the yeast at the end, what is your method for getting it out of the keg, do you pump it out, dump it, or not worry about it?

I pump mine out after filling the keg with wash water. I find it is easier to sanitize the smaller diameter opening on the equipment than the larger keg opening. I have dumped it out before though.

 

[xxHelderxx]

Hi Everyone-

I've brewed 3 beers lately and fermented them all in corny's. All 3 beers are under attenuated. Like 1.036 when they should 1.02x I have a pale ale that is at 1.026 and should be at 1.01x. The first beer I made I did not make a starter for. It stalled at 1.036 at which point I boiled a small amount of LME, added some yeast and threw it in the keg to see if it could lower the FG a bit. Nothing. It bubbled for a day but hardly moved the FG. My last batch I made a starter for and also added some dry yeast for safe measure, however it too looks like it will be under attenuated (going to give it a few more days before I make that call). I know attenuation has been discussed here and many do not have a problem with it.. however I'm wondering if anyone might have some pointers as to what I should be doing to correct this.

Thanks~!

 

[mjohnson]

Was there anything else different about the process? Was the yeast old? I've only done one batch in a corny, but attenuation was fine. Enough people are doing this that it makes me think that something else is going on. If it were a point or two, that would be one thing, but that seems really bad.

 

[Sherpa FE]

Ok, so I get home safe, get set up to brew and make 10 gallons of amber ale.

I set up two corny kegs in the following fashion; remove poppet valve from the " out" post, cut about 1-1 1/2" off the dip tube. Cut some 1/2" I'd tubing to slide over the poppet valve.

Filled each keg with about 5 gallons each, at pitching temp. Added yeast and put the lid on. Placed blow off tube onto out post, and placed into blow off container.

Return in morning to check on beer for fermentation activity, and to my surprise, there is an 1" of standing beer in my freezer!

One keg still has 5 gallons in it, and the other COMPLETELY emptied into the freezer.

Now, they were both set up the same and only one purged!

Any ideas? Ways to improve my set up?

Josh

 

[buzzkill]

the blow off should be on the in post

 

[Layne]

yep, thats gotta be what happened. One was on the in, and the emptied on was on the out

 

[buzzkill]

when i ferment in a corny,I take out the dip tube. and drop it back in to transfer. this way I dont have week old crud to clean out of it.

 

[Layne]

when i ferment in a corny,I take out the dip tube. and drop it back in to transfer. this way I dont have week old crud to clean out of it.

I didn't think about that. Great point!

 

[Sherpa FE]

I thought so too. But I changed both kegs to have the Blowoff on the "in" instead of the out. I don't know, maybe there was more pressure in the one keg. I did have to relieve pressure on the lid of the one that emptied..

 

[Layne]

How did the beer from the bottom of that keg get to the top and out of the keg? Weird.

 

[Sherpa FE]

I had the blow off connected to the out post. So when it built up pressure, it was just like dispensing beer, it pushed it up the dip tube and out into the freezer