Primary Fermenting in a Corny Keg

[Hugh_Jass]

Their reasoning was the corny was too skinny and tall. They said there was a reason why conicals are shaped the way they are because that is the ideal shape for yeast to do its thing. They referenced Samuel Smith's square fermenters and diacetyl in the corners as support for their argument.

Basically, yeast can't move around as much in the corny and may flocculate early or maybe cause different esters than a carboy or conical. If you haven't been hitting your fg then I guess this idea could have some merit

That is a possibility. I haven't noticed any off flavors like diacetyl, but the SG is def. higher. Here's a thread that I posed the attenuation question.

 

[Wino24]

Would Brewstrong's opinion also apply to using a sanke keg as a fermenter?

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Do you know the episode? I would like to have a listen. Thanks!

here is the episode. I'm going to listen to it tonight after work.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

listening now.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

IMO, something that applies to a ginormous professional fermenter often doesn't apply to us 5-gal batch homebrewers. Tall 'Apollo' fermenters are known to produce less esters due to the tall, skinny design...because of the extra hydrostatic pressure. 5-gal batch homebrewers don't have enough weight of beer for this to be an issue.

Not saying the shape isn't an issue...just that things may not 'scale down' as expected when comparing a 5 gal corny to Samuel Smith's fermenters.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I agree, their analysis is flawed. However, I am not sure that the corny is a good vessel. I smell on experiment on my next brew.

 

[WortMonger]

I think they are full of it! I have fermented (under pressure) in Sanke's with no problem. I agree that on a small scale there should be no problems like big brewing equipment might see. I honestly believe that if it isn't in a bucket or glass carboy they say nay, no matter what. If it isn't mainstream they knock it. Proof in the pudding... I have done a bunch in a Sanke (don't see anyhthing wrong other than small batch size in a corny) and never had a problem. Well, only problem was my maiden voyage and that was high esters do to me messing up. They don't know what they are talking about except in generality, and even then only with big equipment. Do it, use fermcap, and be happy. I gotta listen to this crap when I get the chance. I can't believe they would knock the idea.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

In their defense, they knocked the corny, not a 1/2bbl. I put stock in fermenter shape factor and think it has an effect even on our small scale. How much of an effect I do not know.

I don't know what they were talking about with the pressure stuff. Maybe ales do not react to pressure the same as lager yeasts??? I know most lager brewers use pressure to control ferments.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

It's also a topic on BN's forum

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17213

A person did a side by side and the experment confirmed my results. The beer fermented in a corny finished 2 gravity points higher.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Have you tried agitating mid ferment?

 

[Hugh_Jass]

I did this past go around, only once, though. That batch is currently being cold crashed.

I've another batch that's still fermenting. I'll lightly shake them daily over the next week to see if I can squeak an extra few points out of the yeast.

I was also thinking I could lay the kegs on their side with the gas post up to try and get more surface area and less convection. Dunno if that would work. If the shaking does is not productive, I'll probably try that.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Update:
I took the kegs for a daily walk over the past week - rolled them around the basement. These beers (two separate 10 gallon batches) finished at 1.012 and 1.014. There might be something to keeping the yeast in suspension.

Next time around, I'll take one corny for a walk and leave one alone. I'll post the results.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

How many experiments were there where they got 2 points higher FG in a corny? You got 2 points higher on two identical brews which just illustrates that a 2 point higher FG in just one or two trials doesn't mean much. Could be due to any one of several things. Seems they'd have to repeat it several times with the same results to really draw any valid conclusions.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Have you tried agitating mid ferment?

+1 to mixing things up. I think this is a good practice even if you're not using a corny, especially in things you want to finish with low FG, like IPA's, etc. Even though it goes against the idea of "closed fermentation", I like to add whole hops in after a few days and agitate gently. By doing this you would rouse the yeast, and simultaneously begin dry-hopping which will incidentally reach its floral/aromatic peak in 7-10 days. At that point, you could cold crash, transfer, and force carb. You'd save about a week by not having to dry hop in secondary, and you wouldn't have to filter/transfer more than once (if you filter).

I'm stoked about using corny's as primaries. I've been watching this method for a few years, but when I brew it always seems easier to go with my buckets. I need to break away from the norm, there's no reason why this can't work.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

+1 to mixing things up. I think this is a good practice even if you're not using a corny, especially in things you want to finish with low FG, like IPA's, etc. Even though it goes against the idea of "closed fermentation", I like to add whole hops in after a few days and agitate gently. By doing this you would rouse the yeast, and simultaneously begin dry-hopping which will incidentally reach its floral/aromatic peak in 7-10 days. At that point, you could cold crash, transfer, and force carb. You'd save about a week by not having to dry hop in secondary, and you wouldn't have to filter/transfer more than once (if you filter).

I'm stoked about using corny's as primaries. I've been watching this method for a few years, but when I brew it always seems easier to go with my buckets. I need to break away from the norm, there's no reason why this can't work.

Steve,
I've fermented ~100 gallon in cornys. I'm attributing my former problems to pitching rates/mash temps. The past few beers have been the best made to date.

Cornys are easy to clean. Oxyclean soak and disassembly of posts. You can use a secondary corny to dry hop. When you transfer, it's under pressure. From the time the yeast is pitched to the time the beer hits the glass, it has never been exposed to oxygen.

What's holding you back?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Well, the fact that I'm about 8,000 miles from home is a start All in good time, though....

For fear of the repercussions, I won't link to other brew forums, but do a search for Doc-Tasty-Style-Keg-Cleaner, and you'll find one more reason why fermenting in cornies isn't a bad idea. It's a dead simple keg cleaner that you can just hook right up, probably with spare fittings left over from other projects. I plan on making one for sure, but they can be had for pretty cheap.

 

[RegionalChaos]

I've doing an apfelwien in a corny. I like it. I rigged a tube and airlock in to my gas in quick connect, so it still bubbles away. Haven't done a beer yet though. Transferring that makes sense. The abfelwien I just serve from the ferment vessel. Quick and easy.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Here is a HBT friendly link:

http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/Heated-Keg-and-Carboy-Cleaner

It is a pretty common design.

 

[germanicus81]

I've got my first corney fermented batch as a hefe going right now, put 3-4 gallons in each of 3 corneys. I used an airlock attached to each gas QD, but one of them didnt properly engage the poppet and built up pressure. Just got to clean 3 gallons of wort out of my fermenting chamber because the relief valve let it all out at once.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25840136@N02/4282726611/

 

[WortMonger]

Yep, that's why I started thinking about pressurized fermentation right there, lol. Glad it wasn't your ceiling!!!

 

[C2H5OH]

...I have been using this for a while, and it works nice.

However, you are making me think more about moving to pressure fermentation. There's no reason you couldn't pour your wort in hot - allow to cool - pitch yeast in the pressure relief hole, and aerate with O2 connected to the dip-tube post. Then periodically bleed off some CO2 gas to keep it safe.


I also thought about welding a stainless ball valve to the bottom of the keg to create a sort of conical setup.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I've got my first corney fermented batch as a hefe going right now, put 3-4 gallons in each of 3 corneys. I used an airlock attached to each gas QD, but one of them didnt properly engage the poppet and built up pressure.

With fermcap and a hose blowoff (instead of an airlock) you could have gotten away with using the same amount in 2 corneys. That stuff is so worth the price tag, if not preventing a trip to the ER from a boilover.

Even in a carboy, airlocks are a PITA.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Currently rockin my first corny fermentation. It is going awesome. I just converted a under-bar mini-fridge that holds two kegs at a time to a heated/cooled fermentation chamber.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Currently rockin my first corny fermentation. It is going awesome. I just converted a under-bar mini-fridge that holds two kegs at a time to a heated/cooled fermentation chamber.

Excellent!
Please let us know how it turns out.
I've used them to ferment well over a hundred gallons and am pleased with the result. I like the fact that from the moment I inoculate the wort until the time the beer is served, it is never exposed to oxygen.

Do you have some pics of the mini-fridge?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I don't, but I will get some. It is pretty slick.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

One under the bar fridge. This is a nice one by Sub-zero that we got for free from some relatives that no longer wanted it. Eventually It will be under a small bar in my brewery (or at least that is the plan).

Here is is with the door open. The old thermostat sat in the lower left where you can see my LOVE TSS2-2100 dual stage controller. With a little modification it fit perfect. The fan looking thing to the left has a resistance heating element and a fan. The heater and the refrigeration unit combine to give me any temp I want at the touch of a button.

The light turns on when the door opens...

Loaded up with one corny. Two fit very nice with a blow off in between.

 

[Pickngrin]

That is a beauty!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Who hoo. Next brew day confirmed! Soon to see a second corny fermenting away in there.

:rockin:

 

[germanicus81]

I've got my first corney fermented batch as a hefe going right now, put 3-4 gallons in each of 3 corneys. I used an airlock attached to each gas QD, but one of them didnt properly engage the poppet and built up pressure. Just got to clean 3 gallons of wort out of my fermenting chamber because the relief valve let it all out at once.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25840136@N02/4282726611/

Yeah, forgot to update this when I found out, but that was the first time I used that keg and it had a pinhole leak in the weld around the base. Wasn't a poppet problem like I thought.

 

[Layne]

OK, so I can ferment 2 5gal batches in the same small fridge that one carboy use to be in, and double my output!

A few questions please. And thank you.

1) do I put the fermcap 'on top' of the beer, or mix in?
2) can I just use a hoseclamp and secure a hose to the ball lock 'in post' with the poppet removed?
3) how full can I fill the corney?
4) how much trub can I expect? 1",2"?