Preferred water treatment calculator

[nyer]

I just got my water report from ward labs so I started looking at the different calculators. I'm curious which one people have found that they prefer and why? A search for a topic like this didn't come up with anything. I would like to use whichever one is the simplest and idiot proof. Brewing is fun, messing with water calculations is not so fun.

 

[philipCT]

I am a total chemistry washout, so I was not looking for something that required me to do a lot of atomic weight and combinatorial molecule calculations (*&%!#).

I caught on to the Brunwater spreadsheet, which was a bit of a learning curve, but it has worked out really well for me. I use it for every brew and it predicts mash pH very well and is a pretty straightforward guide to figuring out what mineral additions I need to get specific water profiles.

I got some really good assistance getting started from Matt Chrispen and now he's got a tutorial guide to the Brunwater spreadsheet on his blog http://accidentalis.com/brun-water-tutorials

Hope that helps!

 

[nyer]

I ran across that tutorial last night but didn't have time to watch it. I will try to check it out soon, thank you.

 

[ajdelange]

The best one is the one you develop yourself because to produce one that is any good you have to have a pretty deep understanding of the underlying science. Few have the interest, the time or the perseverance to do that.

I advise people to try at least three of the popular ones as some people wind up preferring one over the other based on simplicity, accuracy, user interface, breadth of information presented etc. Using more than one also allows one to see the extent of the disparity in mash pH prediction inherent in the different models used for malt acidity/alkalinity. Some choose the calculator they use based mostly on mash pH prediction accuracy.v

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I've gone down the path of using Reverse Osmosis [RO] water and EZ Watercalculator, I've found this to be the quickest and easiest way to get to the water profiles I need to brew with. The RO water has no salts or minerals, chlorine or chloramine and all of the ppm counts default to zeros. After adjusting the pH using 88% lactic acid I'll add salts and minerals to lock in the buffering properties and to flavor the water according to the style of beer I'm planning to brew. It has worked out wonderfully for me and improved the quality of all my beers.

 

[nyer]

I switched to distilled water when I lived in ny and had real crappy well water. It looks like the water I have in Florida will be much better to deal with. The first thing I noticed is how far off the cities water report is from wards. I wouldn't trust any water report on a municipality website.

 

[nyer]

In case anyone is interested. Merritt Island FL. pH 8.4

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 431

Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.72

Cations / Anions, me/L 5.6 / 5.7

ppm

Sodium, Na 73

Potassium, K 2

Calcium, Ca 32

Magnesium, Mg 9

Total Hardness, CaCO3 118

Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)

Sulfate, SO4-S 32

Chloride, Cl 100

Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0

Bicarbonate, HCO3 49

Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 42

Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01

Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[SpeedYellow]

The best calculator is one that you can customize based upon your grains. For example, I mainly use Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, which gives a pH higher than the spreadsheets expect. So I change the inputs in the spreadsheet myself as needed. And I like to make my own smoked malt, which acidifies tremendously in the smoker -- again a manual input.

 

[ajdelange]

In case anyone is interested. Merritt Island FL. pH 8.4

I am very interested in any recent Ward Labs reports for samples with pH 8.4 or higher. They had been bobbling the calculation of carbonate and bicarbonate (and thus anion content) for years and though they said they would put in the corrections I have never been absolutely sure that they did. These numbers are correct and so it appears that they have taken care of this.

 

[ajdelange]

The best calculator is one that you can customize based upon your grains. For example, I mainly use Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, which gives a pH higher than the spreadsheets expect.

Yes. Here are the numbers for Weyermann's regular and floor malted Pils offereings. The first is the DI water mash pH (pHDI)adjusted to 20 °C. The next three numbers are coefficient a1, a2 and a3 which give the proton deficit at any other pH (at 20 °C). That deficit is:

R = a1*(pH - pHDI) + a2*(pH - pHDI)^2 + a3*(pH - pHDI)^3

Pneumatic 5.62 -40.69 14.821 -10.008
Floor 5.85 -31.299 3.869 -1.986

For a spreadsheet to accurately estimate mash pH it has to have this data. A spreadsheet that uses the same data for all Pilsner malts is doomed to failure and one that attempts to determine pHDI and the proton deficit from color is not likely to be terribly accurate either.

 

[nyer]

I have been playing around with bru n water this morning and if I'm correct, it looks like the only way to make my water desirable for brewing is with dilution. I tried almost every water profile listed and I cant get anything in range. Can somebody take a look at my water report above and give me an opinion?

 

[bob1852]

Yeah, your sodium and Chloride levels are high enough that you're going to want to dilute.

In fact, they are high enough that you may be better just building from RO/DI.

 

[GotPushrods]

I'm a huge nerd that enjoys the process, so I use 5 models before every mash. EZ, Bru'n, Kai (spreadsheet), and both web models on Brewers Friend. The color/pct roast version on BF should match Kai's spreadsheet model, although they are almost always very slightly different. I don't had data for every malt so I don't use AJs, though I would love to. Maybe someday maltsters will do analysis on each batch for us.

I view all these as hurricane spaghetti models. None of them use every input of the actual chemistry (so not a 'calculator' as some will call them) but rather use a reasonable set of data they view as predictive to accurately 'model' the system and provide a good guess. The assumption is that the diminishing returns and exponential effort of the rest of the data make it "good enough".

Aside from actually accounting for every proton (as AJ has shown to be tedious but effective), these models are quite good when used together. I will very VERY rarely get actual results outside he bounds of the 5 models. I generally make acid additions for the average of the models, skewing to one side based on experience of how they work with different kinds of grists.

 

[ajdelange]

Aside from actually accounting for every proton (as AJ has shown to be tedious but effective),

The other models count protons too. They just aren't aware that they do or don't call it proton counting. When they say that the pH for a given mash changes by x units for each unit change in RA they are simply incorporating the alkalinity proton deficit and the calcium reaction proton deficit into one. When they say the malt has a pH slope they are linearizing the characteristics of malt which they shouldn't really do. The new method is actually simpler than the old because it is based on real data, i.e. realistic models of the way the carbonate system behaves, realistic models of the added acids (be they strong or weak) and realistic models of the malt. Where realistic malt data (complete measurement set) is not available the new method falls back to what the older ones do: use data for the malt that seems closest.

I will very VERY rarely get actual results outside he bounds of the 5 models.

Good gracious I hope not!

 

[nyer]

I had hoped that my water would be good for brewing but it looks like once again I will have the pleasure of hauling gallon jugs of distilled water. I wonder what microbreweries are doing for water? I have several near me that are on the same city water that only admit to making water adjustments with salts.

 

[mabrungard]

I had hoped that my water would be good for brewing but it looks like once again I will have the pleasure of hauling gallon jugs of distilled water. I wonder what microbreweries are doing for water? I have several near me that are on the same city water that only admit to making water adjustments with salts.

There are an incredible number of breweries that ignore their water conditions since there is that old myth: If the water tastes good, you can brew with it.

While you can create beer with that philosophy and sometimes its great beer, the truth is that there is a need to make some adjustments to any water source if you want to brew a wide variety of styles. Adding salts is one option, but its not likely to be suitable as the only adjustment for brewing.

 

[nyer]

I was at my local Walmart and I see they have a primo water dispenser and its supposed to be RO water with some minerals added. Its only 27 cents a gallon but I would have to buy a couple of their 5 gallon jugs. In the long run its much cheaper than 88 cents a gallon for their distilled. If I used this water do you enter the numbers in a water calculator like its distilled with no numbers?

 

[bob1852]

Do you say what minerals they add?

I'm very skeptical of RO machines at Walmart....

 

[nyer]

It didn't say. That's what concerns me.

 

[ajdelange]

I was at my local Walmart and I see they have a primo water dispenser and its supposed to be RO water with some minerals added.

...

If I used this water do you enter the numbers in a water calculator like its distilled with no numbers?

No, clearly not. You must enter the mineral content of the water which is, in this case, mostly determined by what they put in.

You could send a sample off to Ward Labs. This would work for you if they are consistent in what they add which they probably are.

 

[dmr]

I'm a huge nerd that enjoys the process, so I use 5 models before every mash. EZ, Bru'n, Kai (spreadsheet), and both web models on Brewers Friend. ...

Here is another mash pH predictor for your arsenal, MpH Water Calculator, available at http://homebrewingphysics.blogspot.com

The equations that the calculator uses are based on an extensive analysis (described in two papers on the same site) of Kai Troester's extensive data. Like most other calculators (aside from that of AJD) the equations are entirely phenomenological. It typically predicts mash pH values that are quite close to the predictions of the more recent Brewer's Friend calculator.

Based on feedback, I know that it works quite well for some people.

Cheers!

 

[nyer]

Delete

 

[MagicMatt]

I am very interested in any recent Ward Labs reports for samples with pH 8.4 or higher. They had been bobbling the calculation of carbonate and bicarbonate (and thus anion content) for years and though they said they would put in the corrections I have never been absolutely sure that they did. These numbers are correct and so it appears that they have taken care of this.

@ajdelange

AJ, how "recent" is recent? I have a Ward Labs report for here in New Orleans from 02/14, with a pH of 9.2 (see below). I am working to get a more updated copy, but are you saying this report could possibly be flawed?

 

[ajdelange]

This must have been a pre-fix report as bicarbonate and carbonate are both off a bit being in actually more like 153 and 13 than 130 and 25. This is quite a lot but then your pH is unusually high. Even so the error is not too serious. The place you would run into trouble is where a program prefers entry of a bicarbonate number naively assuming that it is always a proxy for alkalinity.

 

[MaxStout]

It didn't say. That's what concerns me.

I found this PDF for Primo water. It shows 12ppm chloride, 7.6ppm sulfate, with 33ppm total dissolved solids. It states pH as 5.2 - 7.41, which is not very helpful. I didn't see listings for carbonates/bicarbonates, or alkalinity, so we only get part of the story.

 

[nyer]

I decided to use distilled water. I'm mashing right now. It sucks to have to haul 10 gallons of water and spend an extra $10 but I think the quality of the beer will be worth it.

 

[Natdavis777]

Ive been using Bru'n Water for the past 2 years and it has dramatically changed my beers. Same for my buddy who brews. I played around with it for a few days to get a good grasp on how to use it, and its now considered an indispensable tool.

I use RO water, as my local water is very high in bicarbonate. I pick mine up at Kroger for the Glacier machine for $.35/gallon. They service it often, or I must be lucky, as I always seem to fill up within a day or two of its most recent service.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

If you're using an RO vending machine, do yourself a favor and buy a simple handheld TDS meter with ATC. The stories we've heard about water from these machines....

 

[MaxStout]

I decided to use distilled water. I'm mashing right now. It sucks to have to haul 10 gallons of water and spend an extra $10 but I think the quality of the beer will be worth it.

After a dozen or so brews, you've just spent enough to get a decent RO system.

I'm still buying bulk water at the store, but the more I read about that stuff, the more I think an RO system is in my future.

 

[SpeedYellow]

After a dozen or so brews, you've just spent enough to get a decent RO system.



I'm still buying bulk water at the store, but the more I read about that stuff, the more I think an RO system is in my future.

Good RO systems typically cost a bit more than 12 brews worth of water. I looked into them a couple times and keep concluding that you'd have to brew a LOT of beer to make them worthwhile. Don't forget the replacement filter costs and the cost of all that waste water.