Pre-chill by coiling garden hose in ice bath?

[jack13]

Lots of stuff on here about pre-chilling water for an immersion chiller during hot season by using a second immersion chiller, by recirculating, etc., but what about using an immersion chiller 'normally', except with an especially long hose that you coil up in a bucket of ice? Also, is any type of hose material ideal in terms of heat transfer? I like this type bc it's easy to deal with: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Zero-G-5-8-in-X-50-ft-Premium-Duty-Kink-Free-Gray-Woven-Hose/999972996

Any thoughts?

 

[kh54s10]

Plastics are pretty good insulators. So once the cold is removed from the hose, I doubt you would get any further cooling. What would that hose hold? Maybe a few gallons. Once that is gone you will just have your tap water temperature.

Better than nothing though.

Measured my tap water temperature the other day. 87 degrees!!!! Cooled the wort to 90 and put the fermenter in my chest freezer chamber. Pitched the yeast a few hours later.

 

[mongoose33]

I don't think it's worth the effort. The ability to transfer heat is very poor with a garden hose. I notice a big difference between copper and stainless steel (in immersion chillers), and both those transfer heat fairly well.

I think you'd be better off getting 3/8" copper tubing, about 25-35' worth, and using that instead.

 

[jack13]

Plastics are pretty good insulators. So once the cold is removed from the hose, I doubt you would get any further cooling. What would that hose hold? Maybe a few gallons. Once that is gone you will just have your tap water temperature.

Better than nothing though.

Measured my tap water temperature the other day. 87 degrees!!!! Cooled the wort to 90 and put the fermenter in my chest freezer chamber. Pitched the yeast a few hours later.

Holy crap. I think mine's about 75 now, but still I do the same--chill (till I lose patience), then stick in chamber to get down to pitching temp and pitch later. Which is why I'm not willing to do anything fancy here.

 

[IslandLizard]

Remember, you only need to prechill for the last 20-30 degrees. Even 75-85F tap water still cools wort in the 120-190F range quite well.

But yeah, that plastic hose won't work. As @mongoose33 said, a copper coil has heat transfer issues already.

 

[jack13]

Remember, you only need to prechill for the last 20-30 degrees. Even 75-85F tap water still cools wort in the 120-190F range quite well.

But yeah, that plastic hose won't work. As @mongoose33 said, a copper coil has heat transfer issues already.

So in light of this discussion I'm definitely not going to set up a pre-chill, but question: I totally get why pre-chilling would be much less needed at high temps, but if it's PRE-chill, then isn't there more than enough "chilling-power" in your ice bucket/cooler (since pre-chilling would be cooling tap water of the same temp down through the whole duration of the cooling period)? I'm picturing your bucket/cooler of ice still being very cold and ice-filled at the end, even if you pre-chilled the whole, but I'm only using my imagination here.

 

[ba-brewer]

When I want to get down below what the tap water will give me, I do it with a closed system and a pump. I put a little more than enough water to fill the chiller and transfer tubes into my HLT then add froze ice rounds(3lbs each) one at a time in to the water. The return water is returned onto the ice to cool what come back from the chiller. I get almost a 10 degrees F drop for each round.

Edit: Bobby from brew hardware posted an equation some where here on BHT that can be used to calculate the amount of ice needed to drop your wort x numbers of degrees. Seems to come close in practice.

 

[mongoose33]

Remember, you only need to prechill for the last 20-30 degrees. Even 75-85F tap water still cools wort in the 120-190F range quite well.

But yeah, that plastic hose won't work. As @mongoose33 said, a copper coil has heat transfer issues already.

Actually, it's stainless that is less efficient in transferring heat. Copper is about the gold standard for thermal efficiency.

 

[mongoose33]

So in light of this discussion I'm definitely not going to set up a pre-chill, but question: I totally get why pre-chilling would be much less needed at high temps, but if it's PRE-chill, then isn't there more than enough "chilling-power" in your ice bucket/cooler (since pre-chilling would be cooling tap water of the same temp down through the whole duration of the cooling period)? I'm picturing your bucket/cooler of ice still being very cold and ice-filled at the end, even if you pre-chilled the whole, but I'm only using my imagination here.

The issue is this: the greater the temp between the wort and the chilling water, the faster it's going to chill that wort. As the wort temp approaches the temp of the water, chilling of the wort slows down--a lot.

So, when you're starting with wort at 212 degrees and trying to chill it with, say, 85-degree water, the temp difference is huge, and the wort temp plunges. But as the wort temp drops near to 100, chilling slows to a crawl. There's no point in pre-chilling anything when the wort is 212 degrees or even over about 130 degrees. The temp difference is great enough to bring it down fairly rapidly.

Only when it's close to the water temp should the pre-chilling be necessary, which will increase the temp differential, and thus, the speed at which the wort temp drops.

Now, pre-chilling will speed things up a little at the top end, but will cost you a lot ice for a relatively small gain in speed.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

this is what I did, I rebuilt my 50 foot immersion chiller with quick release connections, bought a cheap 10 or 15 gallon round farm tub, stretched the coils big enough to fit a 6 gallon bucket inside the coils, waxed the inside of the bucket then froze water in the 6 gallon bucket for 3 days, fill tub with water add the ice block, "kind of a pain to remove" run your water slow and you can chill to 55F slowly, the slower you go the better, now this is for water only and its better to let it set half way thought he boil

 

[jack13]

The issue is this: the greater the temp between the wort and the chilling water, the faster it's going to chill that wort. As the wort temp approaches the temp of the water, chilling of the wort slows down--a lot.

So, when you're starting with wort at 212 degrees and trying to chill it with, say, 85-degree water, the temp difference is huge, and the wort temp plunges. But as the wort temp drops near to 100, chilling slows to a crawl. There's no point in pre-chilling anything when the wort is 212 degrees or even over about 130 degrees. The temp difference is great enough to bring it down fairly rapidly.

Only when it's close to the water temp should the pre-chilling be necessary, which will increase the temp differential, and thus, the speed at which the wort temp drops.

Now, pre-chilling will speed things up a little at the top end, but will cost you a lot ice for a relatively small gain in speed.

100% get that principle, but what I'm getting at is actually that very last part: Why would 85 degree water running through the PRE-chill ice bucket during the time it takes you to get from, say, 212 to 100--20 minutes?--cost you a lot of ice? I emphasized the PRE because the principle you describe seems to be much more relevant for recirculating, which is totally different since you'd be melting all that ice with the very hot water at first with very little payoff (bc of the large temp differential even with 75 degree tap water), and end up with melted ice just when you really needed it to get from 100 to 75.

But if you're not recirculating, wouldn't it take a very long time for 75 degree water going through a bucket of ice to melt that ice? Again I understand this wouldn't speed things up much vs. letting things chill down to 100 and then brining in the ice...my question is whether there really is any 'cost' to doing it this way? If anything seems like it would be a benefit (if only a tiny one) to just dunk the immersion pre-chiller into the ice water from the get-go and forget about it rather than waiting for it to get to about 100 and then dunking it.

 

[MaxStout]

100% get that principle, but what I'm getting at is actually that very last part: Why would 85 degree water running through the PRE-chill ice bucket during the time it takes you to get from, say, 212 to 100--20 minutes?--cost you a lot of ice? I emphasized the PRE because the principle you describe seems to be much more relevant for recirculating, which is totally different since you'd be melting all that ice with the very hot water at first with very little payoff (bc of the large temp differential even with 75 degree tap water), and end up with melted ice just when you really needed it to get from 100 to 75.

You don't use the prechiller until the wort is close to water temps and the temp drop slows down. After that you drop the prechiller into the ice and continue. No point in wasting ice when the wort temp is way above water temps--the delta T is great and there will be good heat transfer without the need for prechilling.

I have two ICs, and connect them inline when I need to chill colder than the water temp, such as for lagers.

 

[jack13]

You don't use the prechiller until the wort is close to water temps and the temp drop slows down. After that you drop the prechiller into the ice and continue. No point in wasting ice when the wort temp is way above water temps--the delta T is great and there will be good heat transfer without the need for prechilling.

I have two ICs, and connect them inline when I need to chill colder than the water temp, such as for lagers.

Have you ever kept your IC in ice the whole time to see if it ends up melting?

 

[MaxStout]

Have you ever kept your IC in ice the whole time to see if it ends up melting?

Nope. I don't set the prechiller IC in the ice until the rate of cooling has slowed--i.e., when the wort is around 70 or so. Prior to that, I can get it from 212 to 70 in about 10 minutes. But I'm fortunate to have ground water that never gets above low-60s in summer.

 

[mongoose33]

100% get that principle, but what I'm getting at is actually that very last part: Why would 85 degree water running through the PRE-chill ice bucket during the time it takes you to get from, say, 212 to 100--20 minutes?--cost you a lot of ice? I emphasized the PRE because the principle you describe seems to be much more relevant for recirculating, which is totally different since you'd be melting all that ice with the very hot water at first with very little payoff (bc of the large temp differential even with 75 degree tap water), and end up with melted ice just when you really needed it to get from 100 to 75.

What temp is the water coming out of the exit of the chiller? Initially it's very close to boiling, at least if your chiller is any good. So you're melting ice with 200+ degree water.

But if you're not recirculating, wouldn't it take a very long time for 75 degree water going through a bucket of ice to melt that ice? Again I understand this wouldn't speed things up much vs. letting things chill down to 100 and then brining in the ice...my question is whether there really is any 'cost' to doing it this way? If anything seems like it would be a benefit (if only a tiny one) to just dunk the immersion pre-chiller into the ice water from the get-go and forget about it rather than waiting for it to get to about 100 and then dunking it.

If you want to do it, do it. The cost is in ice, and the fiddling. If you have a good source of a lot of ice, then why not? But if you're buying it, then you're just throwing money down the drain, literally.

 

[jack13]

What temp is the water coming out of the exit of the chiller? Initially it's very close to boiling, at least if your chiller is any good. So you're melting ice with 200+ degree water.

That's not what I'm talking about. The super-hot discharge water that comes out of the immersion chiller in your kettle never goes back into the ice bath. It goes down a drain (or into the back yard, whatever). I'm talking about PRE-chilling the water that goes into the immersion chiller by sending it through a another chiller (also an immersion chiller, but let's call it the water chiller for clarification, and let's call the chiller in your wort the wort chiller).

So, on a summer day 75 degree water comes out of the tap, runs through water chiller in the ice bath, comes out of other end ostensibly much colder (I don't see how this wouldn't work, as it's exactly how a jockey box works), then into the wort chiller, then down the drain. Since the ice is around the pre-chiller, chilling 75 degree water the whole time (down to, let's say, 40), the "delta T" principle doesn't seem relevant.

 

[jack13]

Never mind! Just took a bit more digging:

 

[mongoose33]

That's not what I'm talking about. The super-hot discharge water that comes out of the immersion chiller in your kettle never goes back into the ice bath. It goes down a drain (or into the back yard, whatever). I'm talking about PRE-chilling the water that goes into the immersion chiller by sending it through a another chiller (also an immersion chiller, but let's call it the water chiller for clarification, and let's call the chiller in your wort the wort chiller).

So, on a summer day 75 degree water comes out of the tap, runs through water chiller in the ice bath, comes out of other end ostensibly much colder (I don't see how this wouldn't work, as it's exactly how a jockey box works), then into the wort chiller, then down the drain. Since the ice is around the pre-chiller, chilling 75 degree water the whole time (down to, let's say, 40), the "delta T" principle doesn't seem relevant.

It seems clear you want to prove a point here, though which one and why isn't completely clear to me.

If you want to do it, do it. You don't need my blessing or anyone else's to do it. That's the beauty of home brewing--we all get to try what we want, i.e., there are no rules.

It also seems as if you haven't done a lot of chilling, so you're just poking at things. The best answer is to try it and see for yourself if it's worth the extra hassle and the cost of the ice, making it if you're not buying it, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Soulshine2]

Lots of stuff on here about pre-chilling water for an immersion chiller during hot season by using a second immersion chiller, by recirculating, etc., but what about using an immersion chiller 'normally', except with an especially long hose that you coil up in a bucket of ice? Also, is any type of hose material ideal in terms of heat transfer? I like this type bc it's easy to deal with: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Zero-G-5-8-in-X-50-ft-Premium-Duty-Kink-Free-Gray-Woven-Hose/999972996

Any thoughts?

I use a garden hose to run my IC. I can normally chill mine down to near pitching temps within 20-30minutes after I cut the heat.
BUT, I have seen it posted that running a secondary pre-chiller in a bucket of ice once your wort is under 100*F will get it down to 50-60s in short order without wasting all the ice on the initial cooling.

 

[jack13]

It seems clear you want to prove a point here, though which one and why isn't completely clear to me.

If you want to do it, do it. You don't need my blessing or anyone else's to do it. That's the beauty of home brewing--we all get to try what we want, i.e., there are no rules.

It also seems as if you haven't done a lot of chilling, so you're just poking at things. The best answer is to try it and see for yourself if it's worth the extra hassle and the cost of the ice, making it if you're not buying it, etc. etc. etc.

We are totally missing each other on this. I've done plenty of chilling, and am not trying to prove a point. I'm trying ask a question that keeps getting misunderstood, so I'm trying and trying to make my question more clear. That's all.

 

[lump42]

Lots of stuff on here about pre-chilling water for an immersion chiller during hot season by using a second immersion chiller, by recirculating, etc., but what about using an immersion chiller 'normally', except with an especially long hose that you coil up in a bucket of ice? Also, is any type of hose material ideal in terms of heat transfer? I like this type bc it's easy to deal with: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Zero-G-5-8-in-X-50-ft-Premium-Duty-Kink-Free-Gray-Woven-Hose/999972996

Any thoughts?

Agree with the others that it's not likely to work well. I use the ground water to chill to ~100F then connect the IC to a ice bath with a garden pump and recirculate. I can get down to lager pitching temps in about 20-30 min.

On another note those hoses suck if you actually need to move them around. They're not kink free in anyway. Once you start using the hose, it loses most of the internal pressure that kept it from kinking. It's like watering with a wet noodle. Any bend and it will kink and shut the water flow. They are better if you are using them to extend the reach of a rigid hose.

 

[kh54s10]

What temp is the water coming out of the exit of the chiller? Initially it's very close to boiling, at least if your chiller is any good. So you're melting ice with 200+ degree water.

It seems clear you want to prove a point here, though which one and why isn't completely clear to me.

If you want to do it, do it. You don't need my blessing or anyone else's to do it. That's the beauty of home brewing--we all get to try what we want, i.e., there are no rules.

It also seems as if you haven't done a lot of chilling, so you're just poking at things. The best answer is to try it and see for yourself if it's worth the extra hassle and the cost of the ice, making it if you're not buying it, etc. etc. etc.

I think you are misinterpreting how he wants to set up a pre-chiller. He wants to run tap water at say 80 degrees for a number through a coil in ice-water to get it to something like 60 degrees before entering the chiller coil in the wort. That water then just goes down the drain.

So 200 degree water never comes near the ice.

I agree with the fact that the 80 degree tap water has enough differential to take the boiling wort down to around 100 very quickly, then using the ice to finish. Even 80 degree water will use up the ice pretty quickly so not chilling the entire time will save on ice. If you make your own ice it doesn't make much difference if you use more, but if you buy ice....

 

[jack13]

I use a garden hose to run my IC. I can normally chill mine down to near pitching temps within 20-30minutes after I cut the heat.
BUT, I have seen it posted that running a secondary pre-chiller in a bucket of ice once your wort is under 100*F will get it down to 50-60s in short order without wasting all the ice on the initial cooling.

That last part isn't relevant to my question because the amount of ice melting would be constant throughout the whole chill (bc the hot discharge water is not being recirculated back into the ice), but I ended up getting my answer from good ol' youtube after all!

 

[mongoose33]

We are totally missing each other on this. I've done plenty of chilling, and am not trying to prove a point. I'm trying ask a question that keeps getting misunderstood, so I'm trying and trying to make my question more clear. That's all.

Your first question was about using a hose and pre-chilling the water. I thought we largely dealt with that--hose isn't a particularly good material for thermal transfer. Further, and this wasn't said, you tend to get an envelope of warmer water around the tubing (whether copper or hose) which reduces the delta-t. That's why it's usually suggested that while using an immersion chiller, chilling will speed up if the chiller is swished around in the wort, or it's stirred past the chiller.

So....if that's not the question we're dealing with here, I don't know what it is.

 

[jack13]

I think you are misinterpreting how he wants to set up a pre-chiller. He wants to run tap water at say 80 degrees for a number through a coil in ice-water to get it to something like 60 degrees before entering the chiller coil in the wort. That water then just goes down the drain.

So 200 degree water never comes near the ice.

I agree with the fact that the 80 degree tap water has enough differential to take the boiling wort down to around 100 very quickly, then using the ice to finish. Even 80 degree water will use up the ice pretty quickly so not chilling the entire time will save on ice. If you make your own ice it doesn't make much difference if you use more, but if you buy ice....

THANK YOU!!!! And, yeah, buying $6 in ice would add like 30% to the cost of an average batch, so I'd do what the dude in the video did and make my own ice.

What I was originally asking about was doing what you describe/what youtube dude did, but rather than pre-chiling through an immersion chiller, just coiling a long hose in an ice bath. But as people astutely pointed out, the hose is probably too well insulated for the necessary heat exchange to occur.

 

[Soulshine2]

the best affordable and workable material to coil in a bucket of ice water to transfer heat (heat exchange)is copper, not a hose. Does that answer your question?

 

[jack13]

the best affordable and workable material to coil in a bucket of ice water to transfer heat (heat exchange)is copper, not a hose. Does that answer your question?

Yep, exactly. The notion that there would be re-circulation got out there and it was difficult putting that genie back in the bottle.

 

[Soulshine2]

That last part isn't relevant to my question because the amount of ice melting would be constant throughout the whole chill (bc the hot discharge water is not being recirculated back into the ice), but I ended up getting my answer from good ol' youtube after all!

no, what I suggested on the prechiller was exactly what the video you posted said to do. I never said to recirculate it back to the ice . that would be counter productive. Take the boiling wort down to 100 with just garden hose (ground temp) water through your IC then switch over to ice water prechiller to get it really lower in temp. just as they showed.

 

[jack13]

no, what I suggested on the prechiller was exactly what the video you posted said to do. I never said to recirculate it back to the ice . that would be counter productive. Take the boiling wort down to 100 with just garden hose (ground temp) water through your IC then switch over to ice water prechiller to get it really lower in temp. just as they showed.

Oh, cool.

 

[jack13]

Thanks, all. I'm off to work on inventing and constructing a hose made of a material that allows for excellent heat exchange so I don't have to rig up a second immersion chiller to pre-chill...

 

[kh54s10]

I do essentially the same as what was shown in the video. I have two sections of IC, one fits inside the other. Each is 20 ft long. I put both in the wort to sanitize, after flameout I turn on the water. The discharge goes down the drain. When cooling gets slow I take the smaller section out of the wort and put in a bucket of ice and water to chill further. Even my 80+ degree tap water melts the ice fairly quickly, so I don't keep the pre-chiller in the icewater the whole time.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm off to work on inventing and constructing a hose made of a material that allows for excellent heat exchange

You don't need to invent it, it exists already. The hose is called copper tubing. Stainless will work too, although close, not quite as well. It stays shiny while copper oxidizes.

 

[jack13]

You don't need to invent it, it exists already. The hose is called copper tubing. Stainless will work too, although close, not quite as well. It stays shiny while copper oxidizes.

Obviously we're both joking, but to confirm I brought the question up originally because it occurred to me there may be a VERY simple, ZERO expense, option, as in "Hey, look at that hose sending kinda warm water into my immersion chiller. Could I just take that sucker--or replace it with a longer one-- and coil it in some ice water and speed this up?"

Answer: No.

So I'll continue to just settle for getting it to 90 and sticking it in the ferm chamber till it hits pitching temp. No biggie. Not worth it (to me) to do any purchasing or further rigging.

 

[ccfatboy]

Obviously we're both joking, but to confirm I brought the question up originally because it occurred to me there may be a VERY simple, ZERO expense, option, as in "Hey, look at that hose sending kinda warm water into my immersion chiller. Could I just take that sucker--or replace it with a longer one-- and coil it in some ice water and speed this up?"

Answer: No.

So I'll continue to just settle for getting it to 90 and sticking it in the ferm chamber till it hits pitching temp. No biggie. Not worth it (to me) to do any purchasing or further rigging.

I get what you were asking, as I was thinking the same thing myself. I thought about buying a second immersion chiller to put in an ice bath, but then I thought what if I just wrap a few metres of the hose and shove it in an ice bath before it hits the chiller. I get that the hose won't transfer the cold as efficiently as copper but as it's no cost and simple to do, I thought it would be worth a try. I'll give it a go and see what happens. I also get your point that running it through the ice from the start wouldn't hurt much, as you're not going to melt the ice in half an hour with cold tap water.

 

[RPh_Guy]

you're not going to melt the ice in half an hour with cold tap water.

First, welcome to HBT!

Unfortunately I know from experience 20lbs of ice melts quite rapidly with 74°F tap water flowing through an immersion chiller, certainly less than a half hour.

Either the ice melts rapidly because it's chilling the water, or it doesn't because it's not. You can't have ice chilling the water effectively but not melting.

Using ice from the start is highly inefficient. Lots of ice will melt before you actually need it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_law_of_cooling

Brew on!

 

[jack13]

First, welcome to HBT!

Unfortunately I know from experience 20lbs of ice melts quite rapidly with 74°F tap water flowing through an immersion chiller, certainly less than a half hour.

Either the ice melts rapidly because it's chilling the water, or it doesn't because it's not. You can't have ice chilling the water effectively but not melting.

Using ice from the start is highly inefficient. Lots of ice will melt before you actually need it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_law_of_cooling

Brew on!

^yep, but an additional sidenote that occurred to me: a "bucket of ice" can mean a range of things--anywhere from a home depot type bucket with some ice and ice packs from the fridge to one of those large plastic buckets people use as makeshift coolers for parties and such, filled with a couple/few large bags of ice from the store. ...so the amount of 'cooling power' a bucket of ice has can vary drastically.

And excellent point about the not melting = not cooling.