Poor efficiency and attenuation- is my water to blame?

[sparkyaber]

Ok, here is the deal- last year during the winter months I noticed a significant drop in efficiency and a slight drop in attenuation. This year it is reversed, poor attenuation, and a slight drop in efficiency. Last year about 8-12 percent in efficiency, this year, about 5-8 percent. And the attenuation, last year I had a few beers that would not come down from the 1.020-1.026 range, now this year I have had 4 batches in a row do the same thing. Three of these are beers that I brew on a regular basis, and never have these problems. I have one nut brown, and one indian brown ale- virtually the same recipe except for the hop schedule, and a little more base MO in the IBA. That are sitting at 1.028, and a furious clone sitting at 1.022.
Different yeasts: Notty, Safale-04, wyeast 1335.
Beers were fermented on my very cool (56-60 degrees) basement floor with only the nut brown with nottingham showing signs of a weaker fermentation (very small krausen) the others blew off like crazy. Checked the gravity when the krausen fell back into the beer, too high, and moved all of the carboys to my heated tile bathroom floor. We are talking low to mid 70's here. The furious with the 1335 fermented a few more points down, and the others nothing. I even pitched a second packet each of dry yeast into the nut brown carboys.
I recently changed my equipment to a full on brew tower. All metal, all on heat. I use blichman thermometers in all of my kettles. All mashed between 150 (furious clone) and 152-154 brown ales.
All ten gallon batches
Brown ale grain bill: Nottingham
16 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 65.31 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Oats, Golden Naked (10.0 SRM) Grain 10.20 %
2 lbs Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
2 lbs Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
1 lbs Crystal 50/60L (55.0 SRM) Grain 4.08 %
12.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 3.06 %
4.0 oz Coffee Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.02 %
IBA grain bill: 5 gallons Notty, 5 gallons Safale-04
20 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 70.18 %
2 lbs Crystal 50/60L (55.0 SRM) Grain 7.02 %
2 lbs Oats, Golden Naked (10.0 SRM) Grain 7.02 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 5.26 %
1 lbs Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 3.51 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3.51 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.75 %
8.0 oz Coffee Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.75 %
Furious clone grain bill: 1335 brit II
22 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 89.80 %
2 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2.04 %
Again- all of these recipes have been done before, never with these problems.
All I can think of is water- changing from season to season. I called the water department, and he assured me the water comes from the same place year round. I am not so sure, and will be sending a second sample to wards ( the last sample was late spring early summer) in the coming weeks. What should I test for that might affect the yeast? I am drawing a blank. Is it something maybe extracting more unferementables?
I need to get all of these carboys out of my bathroom?
I am open to any ideas.
Thanks
Abe

 

[3 Dog Brew]

Abe,
Sorry you're having trouble. You didn't mention any treatments you are doing to your water, carbon filtering, mineral adjustments, etc. You also mentioned pitching dry yeast directly into the carboy.

Two suggestions I might try to reduce the number of variables you are dealing with. In Houston we have WaterMill Express which is a drive up filtered water provider. If you have something like that where you live, use that until you figure out your problem. I know here, the water utility will tell you the water is exactly the same, but they don't deal with brewers generally and don't think about water the same way you do. The water is different from season to season as utilities switch from underground aquifers to surface water from snow melt and back. The utilities have to meet certain standards for water purity as set forth by the government, but there is a huge range of allowable ions that will change your mash pH and constituent mineral content. I am very familiar with this topic since the local legislature made us switch from underground wells to surface water about 5 years ago. This completely ruined my brewing. The Sodium levels were off the chart (verified by Ward labs) and there were trace amounts of other (more useful) minerals. So, if you can start with water that is consistent, you can adjust from there.

Second, be a better steward of your yeast. Learning how to make yeast starters and pitching the proper amount of yeast was the single biggest improvement in my brewing to date. Dry yeast should be rehydrated in plain water with a small amount of yeast nutrient. I've read that a cake pan or other vessel with a large surface area is best. Once rehydrated, grow them. I built my own stir plate, but Dan at Stir Starters has a better option and I recently bought one of his. If you ranch your yeast and use the Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator, you will always pitch the right amount of healthy yeast.

Once these variables are stabilized you can focus on the pH of your mash and using Calcium Carbonate, Lactic Acid and/or 5.2 Mash Stabilizer to ensure that your mash efficiency is consistent. Since doing these things my mash efficiency is between 69.5% and 71% as measured by Beer Smith. This is up from 60% to 65% and much less random.

The last thing to focus on after all this is done is controlling fermentation temperature. Being able to raise the temperature in the last third of fermentation will allow more complete fermentation without producing fusel alcohols that higher temps at the beginning of fermentation will.

I realize that this is not the "beginners forum" so please don't think I'm talking down to you. I'm just so pleased that I was able to finally figure all this stuff our for myself that I want to "spread the wealth". I tried to be as complete as possible, but let me know if you have any questions about what I'm recommending.

 

[sparkyaber]

3 dog- thank you for the lengthy and detailed reply.
I am sorry I left a few things out of my original post, as I was in a hurry to get out of the house yesterday morning.
I do treat my water with minerals as per palmers RA spreadsheet. It has done me well in the past. I cut my lighter color beers with distilled water and add back in what I am removing for important minerals. This also feeds my theory of the water being the culprit, since the beers that I put some amount of distilled water in the mash seem to fare better with the attenuation.
About my local water, I had quite a lengthy talk with the head guy at the water dept, and he said that it is plausible that even though the water comes from the same aquifer, that the ground temp may affect amount of important minerals that are going through the mains. Also, we talked about the volume of water that gets used in my city. I live in total suburbia, every house has an irrigation system, thus using lots more water in the summer time.
About the yeast, I did not mention that I did pitch 4 activator packs in 10 gallons of wort, I believe plenty. And yes pitching dry yeast on top of wort. I tried adding O2 to the wort with a SS stone, and gave it up because I did not notice a difference with my brewing. I do pass all of my cooled wort through a screen which I believe has done a significant job aerating my wort. My problem would point to the yeast being the issue, but these practices just 4-5 months ago had none of the same effects.
Also- about the temp, don't know if you caught it, or if it is not good enough,but I can raise the temp of the carboys to 70 degrees, with the heated tile floor in my bathroom.
One last thing that is always mentioned is to re-suspend the yeast (stir it up), yes I did that.

What I still fail to understand is what in my water would cause either, A: to many unfermentables, or B: the yeast to be less effective.
Thanks again.

 

[Randar]

4 activator packs per 10 Gal? Wow, you could save yourself a significant chunk of change just by making starters from a single pack.

Also, have you sent your water away to be tested? I think it costs around 20-30 bucks and you will then "know"... At that point it is likely you can stop using distilled water and address only the actual issues known to be present.

Also, keep in mind that water reports are not sampled art your home, so issues or contaminants in some parts of the distributions system will not be accounted for. Do you have a water softener? Is your water hard? Soft? High in chlorine? etc...

 

[Sawdustguy]

4 activator packs per 10 Gal? Wow, you could save yourself a significant chunk of change just by making starters from a single pack.

+1 The starter will be much, much less expensive and the yeast will be much, much happier.

 

[samc]

Three of these are beers that I brew on a regular basis

I recently changed my equipment to a full on brew tower.

I think trying to compare what you did in the past is not relevant to what you are doing now because of the equipment changes. I suspect a mashing change from your prior process has made a difference. I'd look at that before suspecting the water. MLT geometry or are those Blichman Thermos new and different from the prior set up?

 

[sparkyaber]

Lets say that I get the yeast cheaper than you think, and yes, as posted in the first post, my water has been tested by wards labs. Soon to be tested again.

samc- good call, I was suspecting that, but I have had a batch or 3 that have turned out nicely with the new set up. I was using coolers with the mash tun using a manifold. Now it is all metal with a false bottom. I use a blichman thermometer in the side of the mashtun, and I had been using a digital probe thermometer in the cooler.

 

[sparkyaber]

Also, keep in mind that water reports are not sampled art your home, so issues or contaminants in some parts of the distributions system will not be accounted for. Do you have a water softener? Is your water hard? Soft? High in chlorine? etc...

I have a softener, but use water on the street side of the softener- right after the meter.
Here is a link to my water report:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/water-quality-chemistry-report-thread-101510/

When I checked that, I realize the water was sampled in February- not late spring as I remembered it.

 

[3 Dog Brew]

If you truly suspect the water being variable through the year then eliminate that as a variable. Not knowing what your water is like, from this perspective I would suspect the pH. This will affect the enzyme action of the alpha amylase and beta glucanase (not knowing for sure that it is in your case) which can have an affect on efficiency. If you have or get some of those pH test strips, I would start there. Unless, you have a pH meter, but I would suspect you would have given us the readings if you had one.

 

[sparkyaber]

Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread 3 dog. I do have pH strips, but I only randomly check the mash because it was spot on for so long. (5.4) I may or may not have checked the mash on the brews listed above. This is one of the few things I don't note, since they have been so consistent. I might brew this week, so I am trying to decide how I should go about it, brew as normal, keeping good notes and check and recheck all of my temps and mash pH, or start with strait distilled water and add minerals to suit style or make a starter/rehydrate my yeasties, while dusting off my aeration system. Any thoughts?

 

[3 Dog Brew]

Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread 3 dog. I do have pH strips, but I only randomly check the mash because it was spot on for so long. (5.4) I may or may not have checked the mash on the brews listed above. This is one of the few things I don't note, since they have been so consistent. I might brew this week, so I am trying to decide how I should go about it, brew as normal, keeping good notes and check and recheck all of my temps and mash pH, or start with strait distilled water and add minerals to suit style or make a starter/rehydrate my yeasties, while dusting off my aeration system. Any thoughts?

I would "brew as normal" and note everything, pH, temps, etc. Although, I would encourage you to make a starter. That won't affect efficiency, but it will affect attentuation.

Just be prepared to adjust the pH of your mash since this will be the first time you are measuring that in a while. I wouldn't mess with anything unless the pH is below 4.2 or above 6.5 roughly. Are you using a charcoal filter to filter chlorine and chloramines out? I'm no expert on this, I've only read that it should be done. I suspect it only affects flavor, but I don't know.

Good luck and post back with your results.

 

[sparkyaber]

I think I may brew something light, fast and easy since I am really short on beer now for the obvious reasons. Something along the lines of Edwort's Haus Ale. I use about 50% RO water for this recipe and add minerals back in. I also use dry yeast for this beer. One other bonus is that it really cheap so if it does quit on me I don't have as much money into it as some of the others.

As for the chlorine very low natural amount, I think that Andover uses chloramine as it disinfectant so I do use camden in the water prep.

 

[sparkyaber]

Update- I brewed on Saturday checking and rechecking things as I went. It was a cold day up here, with temps barely making it out out of the single digits, but we went ahead anyways. I checked the mash pH and it was spot on 5.2. The real surprise came when I started checking temps at different locations in my system. I pulled some of the mash water out of the kettle from the bottom (beneath the false bottom, and it read 170 degrees! wow, hot. My blichman brewmometer was reading about 155-157 in the grains. I used a digital probe thermometer in grains and got readings from 160-165! wow, way to hot. I check and rechecked, and found that my blichman was off by 7 degrees! After reading palmers chapter on the mash, it seems to reason that this was the problem all along. The beers that worked had higher amounts of adjunts, which, as I read it, can be mashed hotter. As I understand, any mash over 158 degrees really takes a nose dive with fermentable wort. Right now the beer is fermenting away nicely, A week will tell the story.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Mash temps - makes sense. Next time though you can save yourself some confusion by brewing a batch with filtered water and brewing the same recipe with your regular water and comparing the two. Big differences will become readily apparent. The reason I mention this is because I did exactly that and solved another issue entirely -- to wit, I now filter my water!

 

[sparkyaber]

One more update- brewed two batches now, an IPA and the same nut brown that was not finishing at all. Both final gravities are perfect. Mash temp was the issue all along. I don't remember reading that portion in the mash chapter of Palmers' book, wish I would have.

I also have my monster mill 3.0 ready to go for my next brew day- can't wait.

 

[Hermit]

The water in my area comes from reservoirs for the most part and I have anecdotal evidence that it does change. Mainly it gets a little softer in the spring. See AJ's primer stickied in the brew science section as a place to start with your water adjustments instead of making the situation even 'murkier' with varying water treatments.

 

[sparkyaber]

The water in my area comes from reservoirs for the most part and I have anecdotal evidence that it does change. Mainly it gets a little softer in the spring. See AJ's primer stickied in the brew science section as a place to start with your water adjustments instead of making the situation even 'murkier' with varying water treatments.

? don't quite understand what you mean- I have a sample sent in to wards labs, use the results to manipulate my water to get the desired effect....

 

[Hermit]

If you have reservoir water, it can change. If you use RO water, then you eliminate that as a variable.

 

[Hex]

How are you mashing in your Blichmann? Infusion? Decoction? Step mash? Stirring? RIMS/HERMS?

 

[sparkyaber]

How are you mashing in your Blichmann? Infusion? Decoction? Step mash? Stirring? RIMS/HERMS?

I used single infusion mash on these batches trying to get used to the equipment. I have done decoction in the past as well as step- just not with this unit. I stir a bunch, and every 10 min or so pull 1-2 gallons off the bottom and spread back over the mash (vourlof).

 

[sparkyaber]

If you have reservoir water, it can change. If you use RO water, then you eliminate that as a variable.

No reservoir- one big aquifer- we get water from there year round.

 

[Hex]

...I stir a bunch, and every 10 min or so pull 1-2 gallons off the bottom and spread back over the mash (vourlof).

How do you maintain mash temp for an hour in a stainless vessel? Are you adding direct heat to the bottom?

The reason I ask is I'm using a Blkmn FB in a stock pot for lauter, but I mash in my boil kettle with direct heat and stir constantly, then the whole kettle goes into the 150 deg. oven for the rests. If you're mashing with the false bottom in, you might need to continuously run recirculation in order to keep consistent temperatures through out the mash, especially if your not insulating or heating the circumference ...

Here's my thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/st...iphon-lauter-three-tier-inspirational-210132/

 

[sparkyaber]

Hex this was one of my concerns- adding the heat to the bottom effecting the mash temp. I have a burner that I can turn down to almost nothing- just a flicker. I have monitored the temps of the run off from under the false bottom, and it seems if I stir constantly (every 5-10 min) or pull off a few gallons from under the false bottom this seems to keep the temp pretty close. I am still tweaking the process as I go.

 

[Hex]

I think you asking for inconsistency. You could just get a pump, and plumb a simple RIMS with one pot with false bottom over direct heat, or...

Do you have three kettles? One for direct heat mash, one for lauter, one for sparge?

 

[sparkyaber]

I do have 3 kettles- one acts as the hot liqueur tank, one for the mash tun, one for the boil kettle. I have thought of getting a pump- but it is one more thing to buy, one more thing to break, and the worst- one more thing to clean.

As for the 3 kettles- how does one move the grist/mash from the mash tun to the lauter tun? I do all 10 gallon batches so that dumping is impossible, scooping would take forever, use a big, big valve with gravity?

 

[Hex]

Scooping wouldn't take as long as you think with a 3 qt sauce pot, until you can lift the kettle and dump the rest in. It's all pre-boil and I think it has been determine that hot side oxidation is a myth, so you can get as sloppy as you like with no worries.

On the other hand, Randy Mosher shows his Buckapound Brewery in Radical Brewing which he dumps the mash through a 2 inch ball valve into his lauter tun. He's got an auto stir, direct fire setup.

 

[Hex]

Scooping...with no worries.

add to above:

edit: might need two burners at different levels if you go gravity feed, one level with burner for the mash, one lower or equal level for the un-heated lauter, and a third level for hop boil, and a forth for the fermenter.

 

[sparkyaber]

I read ya. I think that 2" ball valve would look awesome on the side of a kettle. I do have a tiered system, one big burner under the HLT that I also heat my strike water in, the little burner in the middle where the mash tun is, and one more big burner on the floor for the boil.