Poor carbonation affecting my sex life ...

[lone_wolf]

Ok well not quite, but there is a material risk if the issues I have continue for much longer..
So basically my problems have started ever since I went AG. My beers carbonate, but as far as I'm concerned its consistently BAD carbonation - a bit gushy, and most importantly big "aggressive" bubbles that produce a non-dense head that collapses rapidly.
I actually have a theory on whats going wrong and would appreciate some feedback - first though, aome notes on my process:
1. I've always used at least one headbuilder/retainer malt in my recipes (usually at least a pound of crystal/cpils - usually more)
2. I step mash, usually a beta rest for 30mins and then alpha rest for 60 mins.
3. I'm an "intermediate" hopper - usually an oz of summin like Northern Brewer (10% AA) for 60mins
4. I fly sparge slowly and get some ridiculous efficiency figures (90+%)
Point is, I feel the above should all contribute to good head generation/retention.

So my fermentation process is almost religiously - 1 week in primary followed by 2 weeks in secondary. I should say, my fermentation temps are usually on the high side - between 20 and 24 celcius.
I gelatin fine beer in secondary typically 3 days out from bottling

My bottling process
I use 750ml flip top bottles. I prime using 2 little dextrose carbonation drops per bottle - following the manufacturers instructions verbatim on dosage here.
Now I bottle condition at a pretty high temperature - at least 24 degrees celcius, might even get a little warmer in that hot water closet
I don't touch for a month.

So heres my 3 headed theory:
1. I think the relatively warm fermentation temps and the fact that there is no cold crash in my process means too much yeast is getting through to the bottles
2. I think there is a possibility that the 2 carb drops per bottle is too high - it possibly represents the manufacturer really wanting to avoid (more damaging)customer complaints on no carbonation rather than over carbonation
3. I think my fermentation temps are too high - combined with the above, yeast are having a final orgy in the bottle before I pop the top

does this sound plausible??

I'd love to hear anyones diagnosis, theories etc, thanks

 

[CDbrews]

I have used 2 coopers carb drops in 22 oz bottles and they have been under carbed.. maybe that is the problem? not enough carbonation?

 

[stageseven]

There could be a bunch of things at play here, but basically head formation and retention is a factor of proteins in the beer. I would start by trying a batch without the gelatin finings, as it may be stripping these proteins out of your beer. My second step would be to adjust your mash, doing both the alpha and beta rest could be giving you a wort that's too fermentable and breaking down those longer protein chance to simpler sugars.

Do your beers actually seem undercarbonated to you? Like with relation to commercial examples? Not having enough CO2 in the beer would cause head formation problems, but I don't think it would affect retention.

 

[lone_wolf]

There could be a bunch of things at play here, but basically head formation and retention is a factor of proteins in the beer. I would start by trying a batch without the gelatin finings, as it may be stripping these proteins out of your beer. My second step would be to adjust your mash, doing both the alpha and beta rest could be giving you a wort that's too fermentable and breaking down those longer protein chance to simpler sugars.

Do your beers actually seem undercarbonated to you? Like with relation to commercial examples? Not having enough CO2 in the beer would cause head formation problems, but I don't think it would affect retention.

Hey thanks for reply, do you really think that protein content is where head formation e retention stops and starts? The more I read about the subject these days, I'm less convinced - I think its a major part but there are definitely other almost equally important factors (eg dextrin content - so the beer has enough viscosity to support a head once its formed).

I agree that despite my mash schedule I could somehow be producing an overly fermentable wort (the last ESB I brewed was definitely not sweet and bodied enough, so I'm definitely going to be experimenting with a (even more) alpha-amlyase focussed mash.

My beers do not seem under carbonated to me - they feel the way they look - over carbonated.

 

[Ricand]

I forgot to put the 'head retention' carapils in my last beer. The head is as dense and thick as any of my other beers. One thing you didn't mention was your boil. Do you get a real good strong boil going? Whimpy boils can lead to poor head too.

 

[lone_wolf]

I forgot to put the 'head retention' carapils in my last beer. The head is as dense and thick as any of my other beers. One thing you didn't mention was your boil. Do you get a real good strong boil going? Whimpy boils can lead to poor head too.

I get a jolly good boil going on - its 6 gallons on an electric stovetop, but I spread the pot across two elements.
As you are implying with your comment about cpils, I don't think this is where my issues are, there are gremlins in my bottling/carbonation process
Can you give me some bullet points about yours please - ie any cold crashing, priming technique, fermentation time and temps etc
thanks

 

[Bottenbrew]

I don't know much about those tablets, so take this with a grain of salt, but have you tried using DME or corn sugar to prime a batch or even part of a batch? It could be a good way of finding out if they are part of the problem.

 

[Ricand]

Can you give me some bullet points about yours please - ie any cold crashing, priming technique, fermentation time and temps etc
thanks

I'm AG and tend to primary at least a couple weeks, sometimes more. I like to cold crash just prior to force carbing in a corny. I DO think head is more about the beer than carbonation technique, presuming your carbonation is adequate.

 

[mrgreen4242]

Could the swing tops be leaking some C02 out? Maybe try a test where you bottle some into regular crown topped bottles and see if it helps?

 

[lone_wolf]

Could the swing tops be leaking some C02 out? Maybe try a test where you bottle some into regular crown topped bottles and see if it helps?

Ok you are teasing me now, I can tell.
So heres the thing - I actually have 2 seperate problems when it comes to carbonation: Over carbonation and ZERO carbonation. In a batch of 24 bottles the mix will typically be up to 6 bottles - ZERO carbonation, the remainder = the mal-carbonation that I describe above.
So now that youve mentioned it, I actually think my zero carbonation problem is the result of faulty bale/swing/seal mechanism on a sub-set of the bottles.
So I have seperate plans to buy a crown capper to see if that solves issue No. 2.
But I really can't imagine that my bad carbonation problem (which is really closer to over carbonation if anything) could be the result of swingtops leaking CO2? If anything that would leave me with an entire batch of flatties

 

[Yooper]

What temps are your beta and alpha rests? Are you doing a protein rest?

I'd suggest this- use a "new" recipe from one of us that has great head retention. Then, don't do a step mash at all- just a single infusion mash at 152, for example.

Make sure your glasses and brewing gear never touch soap or detergent, also. Grab your favorite beer glasses and give them a salt/water "scrub" and rinse with clear water. Try pouring a beer and see if that helps.

 

[lone_wolf]

I don't know much about those tablets, so take this with a grain of salt, but have you tried using DME or corn sugar to prime a batch or even part of a batch? It could be a good way of finding out if they are part of the problem.

these carbonation tablets are 100% dextrose - in crystalline form. Pretty ubiquitous (at least around these parts). Basically its a way of priming with corn sugar but getting a guarantee that each bottle gets the same dose.
Not so keen on priming with malt to be honest - you are basically reintroducing (albeit in small quantities) all the stuff you worked so hard to get out of the wort during the sparging, boiling, racking and conditioning phases - the usual argument I guess
thanks

 

[lone_wolf]

What temps are your beta and alpha rests? Are you doing a protein rest?

I'd suggest this- use a "new" recipe from one of us that has great head retention. Then, don't do a step mash at all- just a single infusion mash at 152, for example.

Make sure your glasses and brewing gear never touch soap or detergent, also. Grab your favorite beer glasses and give them a salt/water "scrub" and rinse with clear water. Try pouring a beer and see if that helps.

Yooper, my beta rest is between 145 and 150 for 30 mins then I step to 160 for an hour. My head and heart tells me this should be perfect for some fermentability but also good body and head. As I said at the outset I'm actually going to go one step further with the next brew - a single temp mash at 160 and perhaps beef up the malt a little (i get prodigious efficiency figures so don't tend to use more than about 8# of grain for 5 litres)
I'm not protein resting - I thought protein rests in this day and age of well modified malt was a dead-end to be honest (and potentially counterproductive)?
Happy to act on your other recommendations, but at the risk of sounding swine-headed(!) I'm still sure the issue is in the carbonation, not so much the glassware etc - as I say, BIG bubbles that race each other to the top rather than that slow stream of tiny ones that in concert with dextrins, protein et all produce the nice head

 

[stageseven]

Hey thanks for reply, do you really think that protein content is where head formation e retention stops and starts? The more I read about the subject these days, I'm less convinced - I think its a major part but there are definitely other almost equally important factors (eg dextrin content - so the beer has enough viscosity to support a head once its formed).

I agree that despite my mash schedule I could somehow be producing an overly fermentable wort (the last ESB I brewed was definitely not sweet and bodied enough, so I'm definitely going to be experimenting with a (even more) alpha-amlyase focussed mash.

My beers do not seem under carbonated to me - they feel the way they look - over carbonated.

While protein content is not THE single contributing factor to head formation and retention, it is commonly accepted as being at least one of the most important ones, and from your process sounds like one that is missing. You can shift your focus to other more complicated solutions if you want, but I'm betting that in your case like many others it's the simplest solution that is the correct one. Like Yooper said, the other major factor in killing head retention should the correct ingredients be there to begin with is the presence of oils or lipids.

If your beers are overcarbonated, I truly doubt that carbonation level has anything to do with your head retention problems. There are plenty of commercial examples out there (Duvel for instance) with high levels of carbonation that require you to pour carefully otherwise you'll be sitting with a glass of foam for a half hour waiting to pour the rest. The fact that you mentioned large bubbles though makes me think of nucleation sites in your glass, but this is generally caused by dirty glasses or particulate in suspension in the beer. Since you use finings, I wouldn't think this would be the case unless you're not cold crashing the gelatin out and it's still in the bottles when you pour.

If you want to stop this problem right away, go with the KISS method and simplify every step in your brewing process that you can. If you want to go the more complicated route, start changing one step in your process every batch. I would suggest the KISS method, then work your way back to where you are now taking good notes until you identify the factor or combination of factors that are affecting your head retention.

Start with a commonly known recipe of normal gravity that has good head retention as Yooper suggested. Do a single temperature mash with a 1.25:1 or so water ratio for 60 minutes - not 90. Follow the simplest and most common methods you see on here that give good results to almost everyone. Do a regular 60 minute boil, being careful not to overdo the boil rate. You should be getting 15% or so evaporation per hour, if it's a lot higher than that chances are you're precipitating out too many proteins in your hot break. Skip the whirlfloc or irish moss for a batch. Chill as quickly as possible as normal, but go ahead and transfer some of the break material into the fermentor. Follow the Mr. Malty pitching rates, and keep a close eye on your temperatures - stressed yeast can release lipids into the wort, which again would kill head. Keep your beer well within the recommended range for your yeast. Skip the gelatin and just let it clear in the primary by sitting longer. Forgo the carb tabs for a batch, if 1 tab isn't enough and 2 is overcarbed, it sounds like the tabs aren't doing their job properly. Use plain old corn sugar for a batch,

If you do all that and STILL have head retention problems, then it's time to look deeper at your process and what else might be going on.