POF+ yeast in gluten free wort?

[Legume]

I have struggled with an off flavor (sweet plastic) in some beer styles that I think is due to phenolic compounds. I only detect this off flavor in GF beers made with Hefeweizen or Belgian yeast strains, but it is always there when I make these styles. I wonder if my GF wort based on millet, buckwheat and rice has a diffrent enough composition from barley based wort so as to result in diffrent types or levels of phenolic compounds.

Have any of you made millet/buckwheat based Wit or Belgian beers that turned out well? If so what yeast strain did you use? What did your grain bill look like?

I have had Eckert's Belgian Ale, based entirely on rice...its quite good with no trace of this flavor.

GF beers made with Belle Saison / 3711 do not produce any of this off flavor for me, and I assume that these yeast are POF+; so this is another exception.

Your experiences with making GF Wit or Belgian beers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[rjmaillie]

Hi Legume. You don't mention it so I need to ask . Do you have fermentation temperature control and what temps do you ferment at? Also, what specific strains are you using?

I've been working on brewing GF Belgians and am starting to get some good beers in return. I'll follow up with a more detailed response when I have some time.

 

[xflibble]

I have had an interesting result with some dark-roasted buckwheat where there was a really, really unpleasant flavour that only I could detect. Brew buddy and spouse thought it was fine, but my tastebuds were ruined for an hour. Brewed a millet 'wheat' with the Mangrove Jack Bavarian Wheat yeast and that tasted pretty good.

Out of curiosity re: my buckwheat off-flavour theory, do you get a soap taste from coriander/cilantro?

Jared

 

[beekgeek]

Interesting question regarding POF+ yeasts and buckwheat. Are you doing any kind of acid rest that might release or develop some of the phenolic precursors (like ferulic acid)?

Be interesting to know how buckwheat & millet compare to barley and wheat on those phenolic compounds. One (non-brewing) article I found: Phenolic acids in the inflorescences of different varieties of buckwheat and their antioxidant activity

 

[Legume]

rjmaillie...I use an insulated bag with frozen water bottles to control fermentation temps. Its not perfect but I am able to keep things within a few degrees of target. I do not think thgat my off flavors are due to out of control high fermentation temps, but it is possible that dialing in the teperature could improve the issue.

I would like to see one of your sucesfull recipies to use as a guide in my next attempt.


xfibble...I do have a reasonably sensitive pallete, but I do not get the cilantro soap thing...I love cilantro!


Beekgeek...thanks for the article. I am not intentionally doing an acid rest, but my mash gets quite hot (up to 180F at times) and could be leaching compounds from the grain that are not as readilly disolved at normal (barley) mash temperatures.

 

[rjmaillie]

Here is a recipe that I've brewed three times at this point, it's a clone of Westmalle Dubbel that I adapted from Candi Syrup Inc's recipe database (these recipes are a great resource for process and are easy to adapt to GF). I just tasted one at 3 months in and its pretty good!

A few notes:
- I use rice malt as my base as opposed to millet.
- I don't think the beta-glucan rest is necessary in most cases (i use it to help with recirulation for my mash)
- I've had good luck with the Mangrove Jack line of yeasts, and I've used all of the Belgian styles they make. One of the reasons I mention fermentation temps is that when I allowed these to free-rise I got really strong off flavors and phenols. Pitching in the mid 60's and doing a slow controlled rise to the mid 70's is working out well.
- For water, I think the softer the better. I use filtered tap and make very few adjustments, maybe add some calcium chloride to up the maltiness a bit.
- Oxygenation with pure oxygen is a good practice. Just another lever you can pull to control the yeast a bit.
- Even though I keg just about everything now, I still bottle condition the Belgians and age for two to six months depending on style.

I hope this helps.

_____________________________________________________________

Belgian Dubbel - Gluten Free

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Belgian Dubbel
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4.4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.044
Efficiency: 90% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.064
Final Gravity: 1.009
ABV (standard): 7.22%
IBU (tinseth): 29.67
SRM (morey): 25.93

FERMENTABLES:
5.4 lb - Pale Rice malt (59.4%)
1 lb - Buckwheat Malt (11%)
1 lb - Vienna Millet Malt (11%)
4 oz - Gas Hog Rice Malt (2.8%)
13 oz - Belgian Candi Syrup - D-90 (8.9%)
10 oz - Rice Hulls (6.9%)

HOPS:
21 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 17.36
20 g - Styrian Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.3, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 12.3

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temperature, Temp: 104 F, Time: 30 min, Beta-Glucan
2) Temperature, Temp: 168 F, Time: 30 min, Gelantinization
3) Temperature, Temp: 155 F, Time: 75 min, Saccrification
4) Temperature, Temp: 170 F, Time: 15 min, Mash out
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.75 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 tbsp - Termamyl, Time: 1 min, Type: Other, Use: Mash
2 ml - Amalyse Enzyme (Diatase), Time: 95 min, Type: Other, Use: Mash
0.5 each - Whirfloc tablet, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
0.3 tsp - WLN1000 White Labs Yeast Nutrient, Time: 10 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Mangrove Jack - Belgian Tripel M31
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 85%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 64 - 82 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Bottle/corn sugar
CO2 Level: 3.0 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Belgian Dubbel
Ca2: 80
Mg2: 12
Na: 27
Cl: 80
SO4: 50
HCO3: 58
Water Notes:

NOTES:
- Oxygenate for 36 seconds.
- Pitch two packs of yeast at 65°.
- After active fermentation begins, lowly ramp up to 78° over 7 days and hold for an additional 7 days.
- Ferment at cellar temps for 1 week and cold crash 1 week.
- Bottle condition at higher temps for two weeks
- Cellar for 6 months

 

[skleice]

Here is a recipe that I've brewed three times at this point, it's a clone of Westmalle Dubbel that I adapted from Candi Syrup Inc's recipe database (these recipes are a great resource for process and are easy to adapt to GF). I just tasted one at 3 months in and its pretty good!

A few notes:
- I use rice malt as my base as opposed to millet.
- I don't think the beta-glucan rest is necessary in most cases (i use it to help with recirulation for my mash)
- I've had good luck with the Mangrove Jack line of yeasts, and I've used all of the Belgian styles they make. One of the reasons I mention fermentation temps is that when I allowed these to free-rise I got really strong off flavors and phenols. Pitching in the mid 60's and doing a slow controlled rise to the mid 70's is working out well.
- For water, I think the softer the better. I use filtered tap and make very few adjustments, maybe add some calcium chloride to up the maltiness a bit.
- Oxygenation with pure oxygen is a good practice. Just another lever you can pull to control the yeast a bit.
- Even though I keg just about everything now, I still bottle condition the Belgians and age for two to six months depending on style.

I hope this helps.

_____________________________________________________________

Belgian Dubbel - Gluten Free

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Belgian Dubbel
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4.4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.044
Efficiency: 90% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.064
Final Gravity: 1.009
ABV (standard): 7.22%
IBU (tinseth): 29.67
SRM (morey): 25.93

FERMENTABLES:
5.4 lb - Pale Rice malt (59.4%)
1 lb - Buckwheat Malt (11%)
1 lb - Vienna Millet Malt (11%)
4 oz - Gas Hog Rice Malt (2.8%)
13 oz - Belgian Candi Syrup - D-90 (8.9%)
10 oz - Rice Hulls (6.9%)

HOPS:
21 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 17.36
20 g - Styrian Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.3, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 12.3

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temperature, Temp: 104 F, Time: 30 min, Beta-Glucan
2) Temperature, Temp: 168 F, Time: 30 min, Gelantinization
3) Temperature, Temp: 155 F, Time: 75 min, Saccrification
4) Temperature, Temp: 170 F, Time: 15 min, Mash out
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.75 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 tbsp - Termamyl, Time: 1 min, Type: Other, Use: Mash
2 ml - Amalyse Enzyme (Diatase), Time: 95 min, Type: Other, Use: Mash
0.5 each - Whirfloc tablet, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
0.3 tsp - WLN1000 White Labs Yeast Nutrient, Time: 10 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Mangrove Jack - Belgian Tripel M31
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 85%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 64 - 82 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Bottle/corn sugar
CO2 Level: 3.0 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Belgian Dubbel
Ca2: 80
Mg2: 12
Na: 27
Cl: 80
SO4: 50
HCO3: 58
Water Notes:

NOTES:
- Oxygenate for 36 seconds.
- Pitch two packs of yeast at 65°.
- After active fermentation begins, lowly ramp up to 78° over 7 days and hold for an additional 7 days.
- Ferment at cellar temps for 1 week and cold crash 1 week.
- Bottle condition at higher temps for two weeks
- Cellar for 6 months

Very cool. Thanks for sharing! Couple questions...

1) Why do you choose rice for base malt?

2) I see you've dialed back your enzyme load. What effect have u seen on your beers?

3) Why 2 packs of yeast for 3 gallon batch?

Cheers!

 

[rjmaillie]

1) When I started all grain I just had a corona style mill so I was getting with a lot of flour in my mash. So I went with rice malt since it was a bigger grain with more husk. Now that I have a grain mill fine particles are longer an issue but since all of my recipes are built with rice I've been sticking with it. I'm planning on doing a side by side comparison in a basic pale ale recipe to see the differences between millet and rice. Maybe this fall ...

2) I've been trying to get attenuation in line with software predictions so in turn I've been lowing the enzyme loads (mostly beta amylase). I've found that as I dial them back it makes a little difference but I'm still getting unwanted high attenuation rates with some yeasts. The conclusion being a little goes a long way, for me anyway. I'd love to get feed back from others on their enzyme usage and attenuation rates.

3) Following recommended amounts from Brewers Friend pitch rate calculator and rounding up if needed.

(Sorry for the delayed response)

 

[skleice]

1) When I started all grain I just had a corona style mill so I was getting with a lot of flour in my mash. So I went with rice malt since it was a bigger grain with more husk. Now that I have a grain mill fine particles are longer an issue but since all of my recipes are built with rice I've been sticking with it. I'm planning on doing a side by side comparison in a basic pale ale recipe to see the differences between millet and rice. Maybe this fall ...

2) I've been trying to get attenuation in line with software predictions so in turn I've been lowing the enzyme loads (mostly beta amylase). I've found that as I dial them back it makes a little difference but I'm still getting unwanted high attenuation rates with some yeasts. The conclusion being a little goes a long way, for me anyway. I'd love to get feed back from others on their enzyme usage and attenuation rates.

3) Following recommended amounts from Brewers Friend pitch rate calculator and rounding up if needed.

(Sorry for the delayed response)

Cool, tx.

1) I was just wondering if you preferred the flavor or feel of rice, but that makes sense. I've used higher amounts of rice in my lighter styles (wit, hefe), but never fully as base malt.

2) I totally get this. My beers were over attenuating as well. My friends called them 'cider like', which was not what I wanted to hear. I started dialing the enzmes back after hearing Bob Keifer's interviews. I also increased caramel/crystal grains to leave more residual sugars. My last 2 brews nailed their FG. I tasted one last night and felt the mouth feel was fuller and softer, but that was just one beer.

I can't wait for my Mosaic pale to be ready. It's the first brew where I treated my water, so I'm hoping for some progress there. I got my water report back and I have very soft water, which from what I've read, can be a big part of my head retention problems.

 

[rjmaillie]

I find the rice malt to have a nice clean flavor, I don't think its detrimental in any way to the beer. But it seems like most of the commercial GF breweries use millet as a base. And there's probably a reason for that ...

On the two beers where you hit the FG:
-what was the amount of enzyme you used and what enzymes?
-mash temp and length of rest?
-final gravity?

Thanks, i'm just trying to get this figured out on my end.

I have really soft water too, which is a good thing because you can adjust it very easily. I had so many issues when i went all grain, and head retention may have been one of them, but I just don't remember .

 

[skleice]

- enzymes are the same amounts as your Belgian. I haven't been brave enough to go lower.

- mash temps were following the Bob Keifer method.
135 - 30 min
152 - 60 min (he goes longer, but I don't see any gravity points after 60)
163 - 30 min
168 - 10 min
OG: 1.053 FG: 1.012
Mangrove Jack's M36 @ 68 degrees