Pliny the Elder with Amarillo?

[orangehero]

1500 g AA = 52.9 oz AA = 5291 AAU
450 g AA = 15.9 oz AA = 1587 AAU

If you have 15% AA Columbus you would need 22 lbs and 6.6 lbs respectively.

You have to keep in mind that hop utilization is greater the bigger the system so the amounts don't scale linearly for the same effects especially when comparing 5 gallons to 65 barrels.

 

[robopp]

Can someone check my math. Assuming RO water, I'm getting the following water profile from the picture:

Ca2: 115
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 115
SO4: 115

Here are the numbers I'm using:

1300g mash
3# CaCl
3# Gypsum

2015g kettle
3# CaCl
2# Gypsum

Any idea what the '200grams directly to kettle @80min' is referring to?

 

[ultravista]

robopp - I think it is a pre-whirlpool kettle fining addition.

 

[JayDubWill]

Is everyone racking to secondary and then dry hopping or just doing it in primary?

 

[Ski12568]

I did the first dry hop in primary and transferred to secondary for the second dry hop.

 

[ultravista]

I've been dry hopping in the keg @ room temperature.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

one thing to take into consideration here, a lot are trying to adjust hops to match ibu, in reality you can have 100 ibu's and it can taste like 50 with all the whirlpool and dry hops, the hops mask the bitterness and you wouldn't be able to tell

I’ve done this several times and every time I think why I didn’t remember this, I have a very hoppy beer right now that should be 80 ibu but the bitterness it so weak I would say it’s around 30 by taste

 

[GRBC]

Interesting

 

[Alemaker77]

Can someone check my math. Assuming RO water, I'm getting the following water profile from the picture:

Ca2: 115
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 115
SO4: 115

Here are the numbers I'm using:

1300g mash
3# CaCl
3# Gypsum

2015g kettle
3# CaCl
2# Gypsum

Any idea what the '200grams directly to kettle @80min' is referring to?

These gypsum and chloride numbers are in line with Matt Brynildsons water treatment from Mitch Steels book. Calcium, sulfate and chloride all around 100ppm. Vinnie is very forthcoming with all aspects of his recipes except water treatment, only saying he does add gypsum to mash and kettle...never mentions chloride. I wonder if Vinnie has similar water treatment philosophy as Matt, since altering it could really change a beers profile? I have always noticed that plinys malt profile comes through in a good way.

 

[Alemaker77]

The dry hop schedule looks like Matt Brynildsons also. Two 3 day dry hops is what he uses for FW IPAs. There are some notes in the margins that we can't read though. It's interesting that the guys at Societe brewing also use two 3 day dry hops and one of the founders worked at Russian River. I think the industry is going shorter. Alchemist does 4 day dry hops.

 

[ultravista]

Interesting

Restrain yourself son.

 

[GRBC]

These gypsum and chloride numbers are in line with Matt Brynildsons water treatment from Mitch Steels book. Calcium, sulfate and chloride all around 100ppm. Vinnie is very forthcoming with all aspects of his recipes except water treatment, only saying he does add gypsum to mash and kettle...never mentions chloride. I wonder if Vinnie has similar water treatment philosophy as Matt, since altering it could really change a beers profile? I have always noticed that plinys malt profile comes through in a good way.

I get about about 140ppm each chloride & sulfate, both in the mash and in the kettle, using 2,400 gallons of water - 1,300 in the mash and 1,100 in the sparge. That's assuming they start w/RO.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=XJD0JMH

Anyone know if FW uses RO water? I wonder what type of acid they are adding to the mash (the 1,250 ml)?

 

[mikeburns]

So 140ppm or so of Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride?

Also when people say we need to scale the hops up a little to deal with the drop in efficiency how much are people meaning? 2%? or 5%?

Looking forward to brewing this!

 

[Yooper]

So 140ppm or so of Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride?

Also when people say we need to scale the hops up a little to deal with the drop in efficiency how much are people meaning? 2%? or 5%?

Looking forward to brewing this!

No! That would make a very minerally beer.

Drop the chloride to 50 ppm or so, reduce the calcium to 100 ppm at a max, but go ahead and use as much sulfate as you like. I like it at 150 ppm or so, but many others will go up to 300 ppm of sulfate.

When you increase the sulfate, be sure to keep the chloride low to avoid a strong "minerally" flavor in the beer.

 

[mikeburns]

Thanks for responding Yooper! Been following your recipes and posts for a while now as it is great educational stuff! I'm just wondering about this as earlier on it was stated that Russian River were using much more balanced water (equal parts of sulfate and chloride). I normally have like a 4:1 ratio minimum so this is news for me in regards to water profiles for hoppy beers. Thanks for the insight around not getting too far over 50ppm of chloride, though I am sure I read somewhere that chloride was basically undetectable until around 150ppm or higher, though I totally trust your experience as I have never really taken it higher than around 70ppm.

So if it was close to balanced for this Pliney recipe, would it be 50ppm chloride to 50ppm sulfate in this particular case? Or 100ppm as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread?

Also I am from NZ so have never had Pliney, hence why I'm keen to brew a clone or similar beer.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for responding Yooper! Been following your recipes and posts for a while now as it is great educational stuff! I'm just wondering about this as earlier on it was stated that Russian River were using much more balanced water (equal parts of sulfate and chloride). I normally have like a 4:1 ratio minimum so this is news for me in regards to water profiles for hoppy beers. Thanks for the insight around not getting too far over 50ppm of chloride, though I am sure I read somewhere that chloride was basically undetectable until around 150ppm or higher, though I totally trust your experience as I have never really taken it higher than around 70ppm.

So if it was close to balanced for this Pliney recipe, would it be 50ppm chloride to 50ppm sulfate in this particular case? Or 100ppm as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread?

Also I am from NZ so have never had Pliney, hence why I'm keen to brew a clone or similar beer.

Pretend you never hear the words "chloride/sulfate ratio". The reason is this.

Say you have 5 ppm of chloride and 10 ppm of sulfate. That's 1:2.

Next, you have 150 ppm of chloride and 300 ppm of sulfate. That's 1:2.

You can see that the ratio doesn't matter, since the first has very little of either, while the second one might very well make an undrinkable beer.

Look at the total amounts, and in cases where the sulfate is over 100 ppm, definitely keep the chloride UNDER 100 ppm to avoid a very minerally flavor in the finished beer.

Here's my favorite "water for beginners" page: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge Scroll down a little bit and read about chloride and sulfate and what it does (and what it doesn't do). It's really helpful, and can help make water chemistry a little easier to understand.

 

[GRBC]

Yooper, the brew sheet posted earlier in this thread claims to be for PtE and appears to show about 150ppm of both chloride and sulfate in the mash & kettle. I agree the ratio is irrelevant. Am curious about your belief that it would be too mineral. Have you experienced that first hand?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, the brew sheet posted earlier in this thread claims to be for PtE and appears to show about 150ppm of both chloride and sulfate in the mash & kettle. I agree the ratio is irrelevant. Am curious about your belief that it would be too mineral. Have you experienced that first hand?

Only in judging in competition, not in my own beers.

 

[GRBC]

Just to add a little more context, I got the chance to chat with a local brewer earlier this year and he targets about 100ppm of both Sulfate & Chloride and his IPAs are delicious. 150 of each doesn't seem too extreme to me.

 

[atom]

i target 140 ppm cl in most of my beers and they are not minerally... (about 70 ppm SO4)

 

[more_betterness]

Granted it's not this "style" of Hoppy beer, but a lot of NE (Hill Farmstead, Tired Hands) brewers are using higher levels of chloride than sulfate in their beers. In my experience it has resulted in a fuller, soft mouthfeel that really plays well with juicy hops.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=517721

This has been a really good thread on the subject!

 

[ultravista]

how are you measuring your current water before and after additions to know if what you are adding is correct?

 

[Btaz]

Can someone check my math. Assuming RO water, I'm getting the following water profile from the picture:

Ca2: 115
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 115
SO4: 115

Here are the numbers I'm using:

1300g mash
3# CaCl
3# Gypsum

2015g kettle
3# CaCl
2# Gypsum

Any idea what the '200grams directly to kettle @80min' is referring to?

Here is what I found before the brew log was posted

http://blt.homenet.org/wordpress/?p=1288

*Calcium (CA) 76
Magnesium (MG) 13
Sodium (NA) 9
Bicarbonate (HCO3) 26
Sulfate (SO4) 133
Chloride (CL) 56

 

[GRBC]

how are you measuring your current water before and after additions to know if what you are adding is correct?

I got my tap water tested by Ward Labs to know what my starting water is, and I use the Brewers Friend water calculator to know how much gypsum & calcium chloride to add to get to my target levels.

 

[muels]

Every time this post pops up I read "Pliney with an Armadillo"

It's a funny image.

Dam you...now I can't un-see it!

 

[mikeburns]

Interesting that a number of you are actually shooting for a higher Chloride ratio than sulfate. This does go against the trend of people claiming the opposite. I have been making IPA with a ratio as high as 50:350 ppm Sulfate:Chloride and they have tasted excellent but have a drying aspect on the palate that Im kinda neither here nore there on... This is why I asked about the higher levels of chloride. I have just brewed an all galaxy pale ale (that ended up being a bit higher abv of 6% or so) that uses pretty close chloride and sulfate ratios of about 100ppm or so, just to test it out and see for myself. Will be nice to see if I get more maltiness as well as great hop aroma which I have finally been successful at creating in my IPAs (this recipe had a fairly large chunk of hops 10 minutes and in and a big dry hop). Definitely worth exploring.

 

[ultravista]

Are you adjusting your mash water or total water?

 

[mikeburns]

Are you adjusting your mash water or total water?

If you were asking me, I am doing BIAB no sparge, so mash water is my total water (which is what I adjust). Im just interested to know peoples opinions on this change in approach to water profiles of hoppy beers...

 

[slsBrewing]

Subscribed. I brewed the original version once and loved it. I will be brewing a version of this updated recipe within the next month!

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

I did Vinnie's recipe last month and subbed roughly half the AA from the Columbus with Amarillo, weighted towards flameout and dryhop. It's still a bit green in the bottles, but I had one yesterday and it has a wonderful citrus/floral flavor and aroma to go compliment the piney notes from the simcoe.