Please help me in understanding mash pH

[JeffoC6]

I don't know about where you live, but in many places there is a "water machine" that is like $.70/gallon for water. The "culligan" one was in my local grocery store, and it stated something like "ultra violet filtered reverse osmosis water" on the side. I've seen them at Wal-mart, and in other places. In Texas, they are literally on street corners and self-serve.

If you don't have easy access to RO water (or are unsure of the exact composition, which is the problem with the Poland Spring water!), you can also use distilled water. It's more expensive, like $1 a gallon, but you won't need much for a 1 gallon batch (maybe three gallons? is that typical?).

Yea, I always buy 3 gallons of water for my brews. Distilled water is absolutely fine for me to get. So I could get 3 gallons of distilled water, and add about 1/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride as you recommended? You think that would work, and eliminate the off flavor I'm getting?

 

[hector]

I think distilled water is not a good option for you , since there are no minerals .

You also need Magnesium , Sodium and Carbonate Ions .

By the way , NEVER feel shy to ask a question , even the simplest .

CaSO4 ( Gypsum ) and CaCl2 are water soluble salts which are used in brewing to adjust the pH down and also to accentuate the maltiness or bitterness of the Beer due to the Chloride to Sulfate Ions ratio .

Hector

 

[GotPushrods]

Yea, I always buy 3 gallons of water for my brews. Distilled water is absolutely fine for me to get. So I could get 3 gallons of distilled water, and add about 1/4 teaspoon of calcium chloride as you recommended? You think that would work, and eliminate the off flavor I'm getting?

1/4 tsp PER gallon. 3/4 tsp for all 3 gallons puts you around 60 mg/L calcium and 110 mg/L chloride. Perfect for a lot of beers.

Then I'd just brew a nice simple beer, maybe a lightly hopped pale ale with a neutral yeast fermented under 70 F.

 

[JeffoC6]

I think distilled water is not a good option for you , since there are no minerals .

You also need Magnesium , Sodium and Carbonate Ions .

By the way , NEVER feel shy to ask a question , even the simplest .

CaSO4 ( Gypsum ) and CaCl2 are water soluble salts which are used in brewing to adjust the pH down and also to accentuate the maltiness or bitterness of the Beer due to the Chloride to Sulfate Ions ratio .

Hector

So what would you recommend for me then? I don't really want to be adjusting my waters each and every brew. I'm sort of low maintenance, and just want to brew tasty beer. I'm not going for world class right now.

What water would you suggest? And what would you add to suggested water?

 

[Yooper]

What's CaS04 or CaCI2? I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't mind "dumbing it down" for me. Thanks...

CaCl2 is the chemical formula for calcium chloride. CaS04 is the chemical formula for gypsum (calcium sulfate). You don't need the gypsum to start out with, but it's used to increase the sulfate level. Some people say that higher sulfate levels can bring out the bitterness of hops, but I'm finding that more and more of my best IPAs have a low to moderate amount of sulfate. I wouldn't suggest adding ANY at all until you taste a beer and say, "Geez, I wish the bittering was enhanced" because each of us perceives it a bit differently and my preference for sure is less.

In fact, with all of my water additions, I've become a firm believer in "less is more". If you used 100% distilled water, the "worst" that could happen is a bland beer. If you used 100% reverse osmosis water, sometimes that would also be the result. Using a "less is more" philosophy means moderate additions, and then finding out where your off-flavor is coming from. If distilled or RO water plus a bit of calcium chloride doesn't fix it, then it's definitely from something else. But if you add "a little of this, a little of that", then you still won't know.

 

[JeffoC6]

1/4 tsp PER gallon. 3/4 tsp for all 3 gallons puts you around 60 mg/L calcium and 110 mg/L chloride. Perfect for a lot of beers.

Then I'd just brew a nice simple beer, maybe a lightly hopped pale ale with a neutral yeast fermented under 70 F.

What if I wanted to brew, say, a DFH 60 minute clone with this water profile. Would that pose a problem with what you're outlining above?

 

[Yooper]

So what would you recommend for me then? I don't really want to be adjusting my waters each and every brew. I'm sort of low maintenance, and just want to brew tasty beer. I'm not going for world class right now.

What water would you suggest? And what would you add to suggested water?

I don't know if you're asking me or not. But I'd buy 100% RO water, with the amount of cacl2 (calcium chloride) recommended which is very very little, and that's about it. Read the primer- it recommends a very very simple method- for a 5 gallon batch, 5 grams of calcium chloride to RO water. For a minerally/hoppy beer, adding some gypsum is ok. That's about it.

(You don't need magnesium, sodium, or carbonate. That's silly).

 

[Yooper]

What if I wanted to brew, say, a DFH 60 minute clone with this water profile. Would that pose a problem with what you're outlining above?

That would work. The only other thing to possibly consider is that some sulfate may "enhance" hops bitterness. You could use the same amount of gypsum as calcium chloride, and enhance the hoppiness. Or you could leave out the gypsum and go with the calcium chloride for a nice "rounded" mouthfeel.

I know that doesn't seem to make sense, if you've never perceived a "rounded" mouthfeel. I can't otherwise explain it. Maybe fuller? Brighter? But not fuller like thick, maybe fuller like "richer".

 

[GotPushrods]

What if I wanted to brew, say, a DFH 60 minute clone with this water profile. Would that pose a problem with what you're outlining above?

Nope, you can brew a lot of really good beer with a blank slate + a little calcium chloride. If you decide eventually that you like the 'harsher' punch from hops, you can substitute some gypsum (calcium sulfate) for a portion of your calcium chloride.

Keep in mind that most of the time you're still not going to get your pH down to 5.2 (considered the sweet spot by many), but you'll be very close, and certainly MUCH closer than you could otherwise without thinking about water at all.

If you just want to keep it simple and don't ever see yourself nerding out to the water, these suggestions will make great beer. If you are still having problems after that, it's time to look elsewhere.

 

[JeffoC6]

Thanks all.

Here's my plan moving forward with my next batch:

Remember, this is for an AG 1-Gallon BIAB batch. Here are the notes that I've compiled throughout the day to adjust for the off flavor that I've been having. Please critique this process and advise of your thoughts...

Use 3 gallons of 100% RO water (If I can find it) and add 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of calcium chloride.

Don't go to 170 when mashing out. I may be extracting tannins. Go to 160-165

Because I'm crushing my grains "fine," even though I'm doing BIAB, I may still be getting a lot of grain material in my boil, which could be extracting tannins. For my next batch, don't have my grains crushed as fine, and simply adjust my efficiency moving forward for a less fine crush.

After pulling the bag out of my kettle, run the collected wort through a doubled up strainer and another paint strainer bag to filter out particles/grain material. The strainers and paint strainer bag will filter out any particles/grain material almost like a filter. This will help to reduce the amount of grain material I may be boiling, and thus, causing my astringent/tannin flavor.

 

[hector]

So what would you recommend for me then? I don't really want to be adjusting my waters each and every brew. I'm sort of low maintenance, and just want to brew tasty beer. I'm not going for world class right now.

Aha...

If that's so , then you'd better look for a style or recipe which can be brewed using the spring water and your ingredients in an easier way .

I had the same problem , then I found my water and ingredients are suitable for brewing "Brown Porter" .

Now I'm brewing this style with much less difficulties and I still use bottled spring water .

Hector

 

[Yooper]

Thanks all.

Here's my plan moving forward with my next batch:

Remember, this is for an AG 1-Gallon BIAB batch. Here are the notes that I've compiled throughout the day to adjust for the off flavor that I've been having. Please critique this process and advise of your thoughts...

Use 3 gallons of 100% RO water (If I can find it) and add 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of calcium chloride.

Don't go to 170 when mashing out. I may be extracting tannins. Go to 160-165

Because I'm crushing my grains "fine," even though I'm doing BIAB, I may still be getting a lot of grain material in my boil, which could be extracting tannins. For my next batch, don't have my grains crushed as fine, and simply adjust my efficiency moving forward for a less fine crush.

After pulling the bag out of my kettle, run the collected wort through a doubled up strainer and another paint strainer bag to filter out particles/grain material. The strainers and paint strainer bag will filter out any particles/grain material almost like a filter. This will help to reduce the amount of grain material I may be boiling, and thus, causing my astringent/tannin flavor.

The procedure sounds fine, although I don't BIAB and don't know that much about it. I'm thinking that you'd use about 3 pounds of grain for a 1 gallon batch? The only thing that I can't wrap my head around with BIAB is the thin mash- it's entirely possible (at least in theory) that a 3 quart/pound mash ratio would increase the mash pH but I know there are many BIAB brewers who do that.

If you don't have a pH meter, perhaps try running your water (using RO water) and the 3 grams of calcium chloride in a mash calculator to guestimate the probable mash pH? Or I could help you with that if it seems a bit overwhelming. I use Bru'n water, but I started with EZ water calculator which worked just fine. My gut is telling me that with only two-row malt and no crystal malt, that a 3 quarts/pound mash would still result in a high mash pH. But it's still going to be better than not doing any adjustments, so it would be worth it.

 

[JeffoC6]

The procedure sounds fine, although I don't BIAB and don't know that much about it. I'm thinking that you'd use about 3 pounds of grain for a 1 gallon batch? The only thing that I can't wrap my head around with BIAB is the thin mash- it's entirely possible (at least in theory) that a 3 quart/pound mash ratio would increase the mash pH but I know there are many BIAB brewers who do that.

If you don't have a pH meter, perhaps try running your water (using RO water) and the 3 grams of calcium chloride in a mash calculator to guestimate the probable mash pH? Or I could help you with that if it seems a bit overwhelming. I use Bru'n water, but I started with EZ water calculator which worked just fine. My gut is telling me that with only two-row malt and no crystal malt, that a 3 quarts/pound mash would still result in a high mash pH. But it's still going to be better than not doing any adjustments, so it would be worth it.

You completely lost me

 

[hector]

(You don't need magnesium, sodium, or carbonate. ).

Give me a reason for that , please .

Hector

 

[GotPushrods]

You completely lost me

In theory, when you mash "thin" (lots of water, little grain), the pH buffers (chemicals that help hold or slow pH movements) are more diluted and less effective. Buffers are somewhat resistant to dilution unless you get very near certain points (beyond this discussion).

Lots of BIAB'ers have good luck mashing with all their water, but Yooper is saying, just to be safe, maybe mash "thicker"... i.e. 1.25 quarts water to 1 lb grain, or maybe 1.5:1.

Save the rest of the water for mash-out.

 

[JeffoC6]

In theory, when you mash "thin" (lots of water, little grain), the pH buffers (chemicals that help hold or slow pH movements) are more diluted and less effective. Buffers are somewhat resistant to dilution unless you get very near certain points (beyond this discussion).

Lots of BIAB'ers have good luck mashing with all their water, but Yooper is saying, just to be safe, maybe mash "thicker"... i.e. 1.25 quarts water to 1 lb grain, or maybe 1.5:1.

Save the rest of the water for mash-out.

But I don't know how to mash out for BIAB without using all of my water

 

[GotPushrods]

But I don't know how to mash out for BIAB without using all of my water

That's okay to use the rest of your water, that's actually what I'm saying.


I don't know your exact numbers but here's an example:

Recipe is 3 lbs of malt.
Say you want 2.5 gallons to start the boil.
3 lbs of malt will absorb about 0.3 gallons of water, so you'll need 2.8 gallons prepared for your brewday. (I'd prepare 3, easier to calculate salt additions and you'll have a little extra in case you're short).

Heat 1.5 gallons to about 160, then stir in the grain well. Mash temperature will settle about 152. That will be 6 qts water / 3 lbs grain = 2 qts per pound. A good mash thickness for BIAB.

After mashing, heat the other 1.3 gallons to about 175 and pour it in.

Stir good, temp will settle in the mid/high 160s. Lift out the bag, let it drain, and you should have ~2.5 gallons ready to boil.

 

[Yooper]

Give me a reason for that , please .

Hector

A reason? Well, for brewing these items are not traditionally used/added. There are far better choices, for multiple reasons, but sometimes there is excessive magnesium, sodium, and carbonate in water that needs to be removed/lessened so RO water is used to dilute it. Water extremely high in those shouldn't be used for brewing.

Magnesium is already present is sufficient quantities in malt, and in relatively small quantities it has a bitter and sour flavor. The worst, though is that additional magnesium has a laxative effect. It's not necessary for yeast health, and it's not helpful for mash pH adjustment.

Sodium isn't too bad in very small amounts, but it also isn't necessary for yeast health, conversion, mash pH adjustment, and there is a taste threshold that is pretty low. "Salty" beer doesn't taste good. If the sulfate level is fairly high, a beer with significant sodium will taste harshly bitter.

Carbonate is an alkaline ion, which would raise pH but isn't usually necessary except as chalk and even then it's not necessary. If a pH is too low (rarely the case), it's usually better to adjust with pickling lime unless someone has a way to bubble co2 through the water so the chalk can dissolve.

 

[JeffoC6]

That's okay to use the rest of your water, that's actually what I'm saying.


I don't know your exact numbers but here's an example:

Recipe is 3 lbs of malt.
Say you want 2.5 gallons to start the boil.
3 lbs of malt will absorb about 0.3 gallons of water, so you'll need 2.8 gallons prepared for your brewday. (I'd prepare 3, easier to calculate salt additions and you'll have a little extra in case you're short).

Heat 1.5 gallons to about 160, then stir in the grain well. Mash temperature will settle about 152. That will be 6 qts water / 3 lbs grain = 2 qts per pound. A good mash thickness for BIAB.

After mashing, heat the other 1.3 gallons to about 175 and pour it in.

Stir good, temp will settle in the mid/high 160s. Lift out the bag, let it drain, and you should have ~2.5 gallons ready to boil.

Let's try it with a recipe I'm going to brew on Sunday. Ed Wort's Oktoberfest:

Here are my stats:
1 gallon batch
2.54 lbs grains
I've got it calculated to using a total of 7.8 quarts of water (accounting for a 75 min. boil off rate and loss of wort in grain)
70% efficiency
Mash at 154 for 90 min.

My current process is that I heat the 7.8 quarts of water to the strike temp, add my grains, and hit my mash temp. Then I hold for the 90 min. mash. Afterwards, I stir constantly until I hit 170, the kill the heat and let sit for 10 min. After that, I pull my bag out and start my boil. My calculations always leave me with almost the exact amount I need (1-gallon) without having to top off.

How would you break this out like you did above?

 

[Yooper]

That's okay to use the rest of your water, that's actually what I'm saying.


I don't know your exact numbers but here's an example:

Recipe is 3 lbs of malt.
Say you want 2.5 gallons to start the boil.
3 lbs of malt will absorb about 0.3 gallons of water, so you'll need 2.8 gallons prepared for your brewday. (I'd prepare 3, easier to calculate salt additions and you'll have a little extra in case you're short).

Heat 1.5 gallons to about 160, then stir in the grain well. Mash temperature will settle about 152. That will be 6 qts water / 3 lbs grain = 2 qts per pound. A good mash thickness for BIAB.

After mashing, heat the other 1.3 gallons to about 175 and pour it in.

Stir good, temp will settle in the mid/high 160s. Lift out the bag, let it drain, and you should have ~2.5 gallons ready to boil.

Yes, that's probably the way I'd approach it as well. Or even lift out the grainbag and just pour the final 1.3 gallons over the grain bed to sparge (rinse) the grains.

Like I said, plenty of people do add all the water needed right at the beginning. But if there are mash pH problems, that could possibly be compounded by that much water in such a small grainbill.

Does that make sense? As Gotpushrods said, that is sort of a large amount of water for a relatively small amount of grain. That much water "dilutes" the mash, so to speak, and as a result may have the pH rise quite a bit. That could very well be what is going on here- especially if the Poland Spring water has some alkalinity. (I didn't see an actual figure for the actual current alkalinity in the water info). By not using so much water in the mash, and instead using a sparge, that could fix a pH issue if that is indeed the problem.

 

[ajdelange]

I think distilled water is not a good option for you , since there are no minerals .

You also need Magnesium , Sodium and Carbonate Ions .

You do not need magnesium, sodium or carbonate for most beers (which means that there are some for which you do). A little magnesium and sodium will not hurt (and for beer styles which depend on the sour/bitterness of magnesium or the saltiness of sodium some of these is desired). Carbonate will eat your lunch. That is why you never add it to brewing water except in those cases where a lot of high kilned malt is being used and when those cases occur slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) is doubtless a better choice. Distilled or RO water with some calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate is fine for most beers.

Some will point out that magnesium is important as an enzyme co factor. This is true but there is plenty of magnesium in the malt itself to fulfill that role.

 

[hector]

You do not need magnesium, sodium or carbonate for most beers (which means that there are some for which you do). A little magnesium and sodium will not hurt (and for beer styles which depend on the sour/bitterness of magnesium or the saltiness of sodium some of these is desired).
Some will point out that magnesium is important as an enzyme co factor. This is true but there is plenty of magnesium in the malt itself to fulfill that role.

Thanks dear "ajdelange" for your explanation .

I meant the minimum necessary amount of these minerals and I thought the Carbonate is necessary for the buffer system to stabilize the pH .

Hector

 

[JeffoC6]

Let's try it with a recipe I'm going to brew on Sunday. Ed Wort's Oktoberfest:

Here are my stats:
1 gallon batch
2.54 lbs grains
I've got it calculated to using a total of 7.8 quarts of water (accounting for a 75 min. boil off rate and loss of wort in grain)
70% efficiency
Mash at 154 for 90 min.

My current process is that I heat the 7.8 quarts of water to the strike temp, add my grains, and hit my mash temp. Then I hold for the 90 min. mash. Afterwards, I stir constantly until I hit 170, the kill the heat and let sit for 10 min. After that, I pull my bag out and start my boil. My calculations always leave me with almost the exact amount I need (1-gallon) without having to top off.

How would you break this out like you did above?

Morning all, I just didn't want this question to get buried.
I leave for vacation next week, and was going to brew up and Oktoberfest before I left so when I came back, I could bottle it and then let it condition until October. I want to brew this up tomorrow, but really need to get a better understanding of exactly what I'm going to be doing regarding additions to my water, what kind of water, and my actual process.

Thanks in advance for all the advise. I'm actually heading to the LHBS after work today to pick up some additives that have been outlined so far in this thread. All I need now are some suggestions as to what to do with this. Your guidance is greatly appreciated.

 

[ajdelange]

For an O'fest use about equal portions of Pils, Vienna and Munich I with RO water to which about half a teaspoonful of CaCl2 has been added per 5 gallons. Use a decoction mashing profile if you are up to it and ferment at 48 F with the Wyeast O'fest strain. This is important as the White Labs equivalent does not perform (at least it didn't for me the three times I tried it). Slowly lower the temperature (1 - 2 °/day) to 33 °F and hold for a couple of weeks, then transfer to lagering kegs being sure a fair amount of yeast goes with the beer i.e. if it has dropped clear agitate it to the point where the yeast is back in suspension and then wait while most of it resettles. You don't want clear beer going into the lagering vessels.

 

[brycelarson]

Maybe I'm over-simplifying things but hear me out. To the OP - if all of your beer is using bottled water and you have a consistent problem, why not try a very simple experiment. Rather than trying to make things more complicated, make things less. Use tap water.

Does your water from the tap taste ok? (I assume it does - tap water in the US is VASTLY more regulated and tested than bottled). If so, and you are worried about chlorene go get a campden tablet and toss it in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablets

There's no downside. If you're making unacceptable beer now then the worst this will do is make more unacceptable beer. The municipalities have to test and provide water anaisys if you ask - most post them on their websites.

The simplest solution is often the best.

 

[ajdelange]

....I thought the Carbonate is necessary for the buffer system to stabilize the pH .

Carbonic/bicarbonate/carbonic does, in pairs, buffer but the first pair buffers to pH 6.38 and the latter 10.38 (the 10 buffer supplied with pH meters is a bicarbonate/carbonate buffer).

 

[ajdelange]

Use tap water.

.....The simplest solution is often the best.

True unless the simple solution is a recipe for disaster (perhaps too strong a word - let's say 'brewing problems') which it might or might not be in this case. The simplest guaranteed solution is RO with a bit of calcium chloride per the Primer. The two problems with tap water are unsuitability (usually because of high bicarbonate or sulfate levels) and variability with season as the supplier draws from different sources and blends or as the sources themselves change (snow meltoff...). Now if OP lived in the Pacific Northwest (which he doesn't) using tap water with some CaCl2 would indeed be the simplest and a very good way to go. If not, then RO is the second best thing and second best only because there is some cost/effort involved in obtaining it. It is certainly suitable and always predictable (unless the membrane fails).

 

[brycelarson]

Now if OP lived in the Pacific Northwest (which he doesn't) using tap water with some CaCl2 would indeed be the simplest and a very good way to go. If not, then RO is the second best thing and second best only because there is some cost/effort involved in obtaining it. It is certainly suitable and always predictable (unless the membrane fails).

With all due respect, if you think the only tap water in the US that is useful for creating great beers is in the Pacific NW you're sorely mistaken. What water do you think commercial breweries use? They use the same water that flows to the tap in your house. Go ask your favorite micro brewery or brew pub where they get their water - it's not being trucked in.

I agree that municipal water can change seasonally - but it's highly regulated and tested constantly. Any sort of water you're buying isn't regulated anywhere near as closely.

 

[ajdelange]

...if you think the only tap water in the US that is useful for creating great beers is in the Pacific NW you're sorely mistaken.

No, I don't think that nor do I think that's what I wrote. What I think I wrote was that Pacific NW water is one of few municipal (tap) waters that allow brewers to use the KISS method with confidence. The implications here are that because it is always the same and low in mineral content a brewer always has consistent and total control of the mineral profile.

What water do you think commercial breweries use? They use the same water that flows to the tap in your house.

Often they don't. Some operations consistently use the local water untreated thinking that it is the brewing equivalent of terroir. I don't necessarily disagree with this philosophy (it was taught at UCD for years) but it is limiting. I know one guy who makes beautiful highly hop flavored ales but his Pils is pretty bad because the sulfate is high. He's installing an RO unit. Other breweries, especially the larger ones treat their water to varying degrees depending on the kind(s) of beer the operation is creating often, in the better ones, basing the treatment on daily water analysis.

Go ask your favorite micro brewery or brew pub where they get their water..

My favorite micro brewer is the guy installing the RO unit. I don't have to ask him because we've discussed it at length.

....- it's not being trucked in.

I know of at least one case where it is - a Gordon Biersch but can't remember which one (in the limy midwest somewhere).

I agree that municipal water can change seasonally - but it's highly regulated and tested constantly.

In some places the water quality is uniform and in some cases it varies widely. The testing isn't much help to the brewer because he doesn't get the data until the annual report is published if the data he wants is published at all. It isn't much good to him to know that the alkalinity was 50 last January and rose to 95 last June. The beers he made then are probably all gone.

Any sort of water you're buying isn't regulated anywhere near as closely.

In most cases bottled water comes out of the tap at the bottling plant. They may or may not do any processing to it but if they do it is usually simple filtering and/or UV treatment. I do not advocate using bottled water. With an RO system and inexpensive TDS/conductivity meter (which checks up on the RO system) you know exactly what you are getting. You don't have to do any testing at all or at worst a simple conductivity check, or rely on any outdated report.

I realize this isn't for everybody but if you want to be in control of your water this is the simplest way to do it. I guess I should add an 'IMO' as you do have to obtain/operate the RO system or drive somewhere to get RO water. The alternative is doing an analysis yourself before each brew day (doable but a PITA) followed by salt adjustments and probably dilution which uses RO water anyway so you might as well use all RO and save the analysis. The exception being the lucky guys in the Pacific North West.

 

[brycelarson]

You're point is well taken - especially the terroir aspect of local brews.

Here's my take on things. I have the great benefit of having excellent water for brewing. I have at various times in my brewing history spent a lot of time, money and resources on water adjustment and treatment. I have since pulled back on that nearly completely. I'm sure that my beers aren't as consistent as yours are. I do brew excellent beer however (and some terrible ones ). I'm sure that at some point I will come around to all of those jars of additives and jump into the water profiles again - but for now I'm just brewing tasty beer, keeping my brew day simple and enjoying life.

My point is simply that excellent beer can and is made from municipal water. The simplest experiment eh OP can do is to replace the portion of his brew that he is suspect of. He already has a faucet in his house providing water that is safe to drink. If he replaces the bottled water with tap water and his brew has the same flaw - then it's a good indication that he needs to investigate another area of his process.