Plate chiller and hot wort - filter required?

[pretzelb]

I'm on my 3rd brew with a new system and today I decided to try running hot wort through the plate chiller near the end of the boil. In another thread others had said this was how they made sure the plate chiller was sanitized. They also indicated that as long as you cleaned it right away all should be fine. Well, that was a nightmare for me.

I spent tons of water and time trying to flush that plate chiller. Debris just kept coming out. I can't imagine that this is what everyone goes through. Here's what I did so please tell me where I went wrong or is this is normal.

Near the end of the boil I hooked the plate chiller and had a hose run back into the kettle to start a whirlpool. When boil was done I killed the heat and kept the whirlpool going. I then started the water and watched the temps drop. When near target I turned the pump off and then put the tube into the carboy. From here I just collected the wort.

My only guess is that if you follow this idea you must use a hop filter. Otherwise I can't see how you prevent that plate chiller from getting all kinds of debris.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Reasons Why Counter Flow Chillers are amazing:

1. See above post. (CFC's don't do that.)

2. Cools wort quickly.

3. Yep. That's all I got.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]My only guess is that if you follow this idea you must use a hop filter.[...]

Or the moral equivalent: I still use hop bags...

Cheers!

 

[TexasWine]

I always use some type of hop filtration in the boil with mine. Never had the issues you describe.

 

[kombat]

You need to either whirlpool without the chiller (and sanitize it separately) or contain your hops.

Near the end of the boil, I hook all my tubing up with my pump and plate chiller and run Star San through it for 5 minutes. Then I drain it all and connect everything in preparation for the whirlpool, but *without* the plate chiller in the mix. I whirlpool, then move the hoses around to get ready to chill through the plate chiller, and let the wort settle for 15 minutes or so. Then I pump the wort through the chiller and directly into the carboy. A side-pickup tube in my kettle ensures minimal hop/trub debris gets sucked into the chiller.

As for cleaning the chiller, something that will help is to flush it *backwards*. During cleaning, I run hot PBW through the chiller in the reverse direction of normal chilling.

 

[pretzelb]

You need to either whirlpool without the chiller (and sanitize it separately) or contain your hops.

Near the end of the boil, I hook all my tubing up with my pump and plate chiller and run Star San through it for 5 minutes. Then I drain it all and connect everything in preparation for the whirlpool, but *without* the plate chiller in the mix. I whirlpool, then move the hoses around to get ready to chill through the plate chiller, and let the wort settle for 15 minutes or so. Then I pump the wort through the chiller and directly into the carboy. A side-pickup tube in my kettle ensures minimal hop/trub debris gets sucked into the chiller.

As for cleaning the chiller, something that will help is to flush it *backwards*. During cleaning, I run hot PBW through the chiller in the reverse direction of normal chilling.

I'm running a single vessel system so it isn't possible for me to "run" a Starsan cycle before chilling. Instead I've been filling it manually over a sink. For cleaning I am starting to think I need to find a way to clean the pump and the chiller separately before trying to run any loops with cleaner. There is just too much junk that gets recycled. To do this I need get some connectors so I can hook the chiller to a sink or garden hose. The pump is an issue since it is bolted to the brew stand - something I thought smart at first but now I think having it mobile would be better. Once those are flushed and my kettle scrubbed, then I can do the PBW cycle.

For my first 2 brews with the new system I did run a recirc without the plate chiller to get the whirlpool going. This worked well enough so I'm going back to that.

I'm still debating a switch to an IC or CFC, or buying a filter for the hops.

 

[kombat]

I'm running a single vessel system so it isn't possible for me to "run" a Starsan cycle before chilling.

You don't have a bucket?

Fill bucket with Star San. Pour into lines to prime them. Connect the lines as follows:

Bucket of Star San -> silicone tube -> pump inlet
pump outlet -> silicone tube -> plate chiller inlet
plate chiller outlet -> silicone tube -> back to bucket of Star San.

I built a grant that I use while recirculating my wort at the end of the mash. I use this grant to simplify this plate chiller sanitization step (it makes it trivially easy to flood the lines/pump/chiller with Star San when priming, to make sure the pump doesn't suck air and cavitate).

I need get some connectors so I can hook the chiller to a sink or garden hose.

How do you currently feed chilling water into your plate chiller? Why can't you just use the same thing, but connect it to the "wort" channel of your chiller instead of your "water" channel?

In my system, I feed water to my chiller with a long hose that has a hose/faucet connector on one end (so it screws into the faucet just like a garden hose would), and a female stainless quick-disconnect on the other. All 4 ports of my plate chiller are fitted with male stainless quick-disconnect fittings. This makes it easy to quickly rearrange lines when configuring the system. It also means that after chilling has finished, I can move the "cold water line" from the "cold water in" port on my chiller to the "cold wort out" port, and flush the chiller (backwards) with plain, cold tap water from my faucet. Once it's running relatively clear, then I set it up and run the hot PBW through it for 10 minutes while I clean the boil kettle. Then I rinse out the PBW residue with another blast of plain, cold tap water. Then I flip it around a little and shake it to get out most of the water, and put it in storage.

 

[pretzelb]

The kettle came with tri clover connections but those won't work on there plate chiller for both wort and water. So I used camlocks for water. Maybe I could make it all work as tri clover with more SS elbows but I'd have to order more parts and I had the camlocks already.

I suppose I could convert a bucket to a grant but it seems like pouring Starsan in to capacity has the same result. Also if I were to use the pump if have to clean it after mash where now that isn't needed.

I just had the idea that I might get more flexibility if I mix some hoses with camlocks on one end to serve as links. Then I can configure different lengths and uses. Going to require planning though.

View attachment 1461607943127.jpg

 

[kombat]

I suppose I could convert a bucket to a grant but it seems like pouring Starsan in to capacity has the same result.

It will, but I found it quite tedious to pour Star San into all the lines to "prime" them. The grant makes it much easier.

Also if I were to use the pump if have to clean it after mash where now that isn't needed.

#1: I would never use the same pump for both tasks. I'm paranoid about my "mash pump" being utterly contaminated with bacteria from the mash. I use separate pumps for both tasks. i.e., I have a "hot side" pump and a "cold side" pump.

#2: Do you not already have a pump to push the wort from the kettle, through the chiller, and into the fermenter? Or are you relying on the boiling-hot wort sanitizing the pump and lines during whirlpooling? I suppose that would work, but I'd still be uncomfortable risking a batch of beer over it.

I don't have any tri-clamps or cam locks in my system - it's all stainless quick-disconnects. One type of connector makes it very easy to reconfigure things on the fly.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

The kettle came with tri clover connections but those won't work on there plate chiller for both wort and water. So I used camlocks for water. Maybe I could make it all work as tri clover with more SS elbows but I'd have to order more parts and I had the camlocks already.

I suppose I could convert a bucket to a grant but it seems like pouring Starsan in to capacity has the same result. Also if I were to use the pump if have to clean it after mash where now that isn't needed.

I just had the idea that I might get more flexibility if I mix some hoses with camlocks on one end to serve as links. Then I can configure different lengths and uses. Going to require planning though.

If you are up for it, we encourage you to give either our Hydra or King Cobra chillers a try (which one will depend on your kettle clearances). If you decide to give one of our chillers a shot, for your order, we will include a pre-paid return label in the box. If you choose to return it, you will get a full refund including all shipping charges. You won't be out any money and you will get a chance to see one of our chillers in action. We see a post similar to yours every couple of weeks, and the "answer" is usually to buy another product to filter out the hops or to let the wort sit for an additional 15 to 20 minutes (in which case a JaDeD IC kills any plate chiller by cutting time from your brewday). You have already spent a lot of money on a plate chiller, pump, hoses and fittings. We guarantee that you will cut down your brewday with either of our triple feed chillers. You will have the same chilling speed and MUCH faster cleaning times. Just PM us your order number.

 

[pretzelb]

It will, but I found it quite tedious to pour Star San into all the lines to "prime" them. The grant makes it much easier.



#1: I would never use the same pump for both tasks. I'm paranoid about my "mash pump" being utterly contaminated with bacteria from the mash. I use separate pumps for both tasks. i.e., I have a "hot side" pump and a "cold side" pump.

#2: Do you not already have a pump to push the wort from the kettle, through the chiller, and into the fermenter? Or are you relying on the boiling-hot wort sanitizing the pump and lines during whirlpooling? I suppose that would work, but I'd still be uncomfortable risking a batch of beer over it.

I don't have any tri-clamps or cam locks in my system - it's all stainless quick-disconnects. One type of connector makes it very easy to reconfigure things on the fly.

Pouring the Starsan is quite easy for me. I just pour each side over my sink. The elbows point up so I can use gravity.

I do have the capacity to run another pump but the stand is setup for just the one. And as a single tier system, another bucket and table would need to be added.

My system has a recirculating mash setup where the pump keeps the wort flowing. After mash and then boil, I can use a separate port for a whirlpool. With the boiling wort I consider this sanitary. After whirlpool the hose is switched out from whirlpool to chiller.

The tri clovers are on the kettle so I'm stuck with that. But I don't think I could fit 4 tri clovers on the chiller because of how it is set up.

 

[pretzelb]

If you are up for it, we encourage you to give either our Hydra or King Cobra chillers a try (which one will depend on your kettle clearances). If you decide to give one of our chillers a shot, for your order, we will include a pre-paid return label in the box. If you choose to return it, you will get a full refund including all shipping charges. You won't be out any money and you will get a chance to see one of our chillers in action. We see a post similar to yours every couple of weeks, and the "answer" is usually to buy another product to filter out the hops or to let the wort sit for an additional 15 to 20 minutes (in which case a JaDeD IC kills any plate chiller by cutting time from your brewday). You have already spent a lot of money on a plate chiller, pump, hoses and fittings. We guarantee that you will cut down your brewday with either of our triple feed chillers. You will have the same chilling speed and MUCH faster cleaning times. Just PM us your order number.

I believe I sent you an email from the website asking for ideas and listing the stats of my kettle. Haven't heard back yet.

 

[pretzelb]

For reference here is a semi decent picture of the system. A pulley allows me to hoist the grain basket after mash. The port on the top is for mash recirculating. Bottom had a port to drain and a whirlpool port.

View attachment 1461636289631.jpg

 

[kombat]

Pouring the Starsan is quite easy for me. I just pour each side over my sink. The elbows point up so I can use gravity.

Sure, but you need to sanitize the hoses, too, or at the very least, the "cold wort out" hose. The hose from the kettle outlet port to the pump inlet, and the hose from the pump outlet back to either the whirlpool port or the chiller's "hot wort in" port, will both be sanitized during the whirlpool, as will the pump itself. But the hose draining the cold wort from the chiller still needs to be sanitized.

I do have the capacity to run another pump but the stand is setup for just the one. And as a single tier system, another bucket and table would need to be added.

I don't understand why, but then again, I don't have a stand at all. I brew on a plain old table in my garage, my pumps and chiller aren't bolted to anything, they get moved around as needed.

My system has a recirculating mash setup where the pump keeps the wort flowing. After mash and then boil, I can use a separate port for a whirlpool. With the boiling wort I consider this sanitary.

You're probably right, I just wouldn't be comfortable relying on 5 minutes of hot (no longer boiling) wort to be sufficient to thoroughly sanitize a pump that previously had raw sweet wort flowing through it (while recirculating during the mash). That's a ton of bacteria flowing through it. I use a separate pump and separate hoses for my mashing activites than my chilling activities.

 

[pretzelb]

For hoses and fittings I use a bucket with Starsan. Typically this is from the Starsan I had in my carboy. I just coil them to make sure they get filled. They end sanitary inside and outside. Plus I can easily let them drain back into the bucket with no spills.

The pump and connections for the whirlpool are usually run for a minute or two at boiling. I've never read how long you need at boiling temps to get the job done but I assume a few minutes is fine. Then I can kill the heat and start to slow the whirlpool, unless I'm doing a hop stand. When done I only need to swap out the hose from the pump to the recirculation port. The I grab the carboy hose out of my sanitary bucket and hook it up to the pump and my carboy. Then I slowly start the chill.

I figured a cheap way to configure a back flush. All I need is another tri clover. Only question now is how badly I screwed up. Might need to bake the chiller.

One change I may make is to move the pump off the plate. It would be easier if I could move it around. Maybe a future project.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

I believe I sent you an email from the website asking for ideas and listing the stats of my kettle. Haven't heard back yet.

Thank you for your email! You should receive a reply to your email today (if you haven't already) since we went through all of our outstanding emails that required either a large amount of info or some "outside the box thinking" to answer. We do our best to get back to people as fast as possible, but some emails can take more time and effort to complete than others.

 

[pretzelb]

Thank you for your email! You should receive a reply to your email today (if you haven't already) since we went through all of our outstanding emails that required either a large amount of info or some "outside the box thinking" to answer. We do our best to get back to people as fast as possible, but some emails can take more time and effort to complete than others.

I'm curious as to how a customer is supposed to pick between the Hydra and the King Cobra. I've been looking at each and it isn't entirely clear to me under what circumstances to pick one over the other. Seems like both can be adjusted to a taller height. Is it just the height of the coils where the King Cobra has 4" coils and the Hydra has 8"?

I guess the real question would be, if both would fit, then which should you choose? Hydra claims to be faster but the King Cobra is more expensive.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

I'm curious as to how a customer is supposed to pick between the Hydra and the King Cobra. I've been looking at each and it isn't entirely clear to me under what circumstances to pick one over the other. Seems like both can be adjusted to a taller height. Is it just the height of the coils where the King Cobra has 4" coils and the Hydra has 8"?

I guess the real question would be, if both would fit, then which should you choose? Hydra claims to be faster but the King Cobra is more expensive.

Great question! due to the triple coil design, neither the King Cobra or the Hydra are adjustable. Both chillers are designed for specific purposes/kettles based on their dimensions. The Hydra has 11.5" diameter chilling coils and the King Cobra has a 14" diameter chilling coils. The difference in chilling speed is due to a few reasons. First, the coils on the King Cobra are more compact than the chilling coils on the Hydra, resulting in a little less effective surface area. Also, the King Cobra was designed for use in a larger (15 gallon vs 10 gallon) kettle that has more thermal mass due to the increased weight of metal.