Planning an eBIAB build and could use some help

[weathejx]

I've been perusing the forums, checked out Kal's site, some instructables, etc. I think I have a pretty solid plan that I want to run by the experts and make sure I'm not crazy. I also need some help with the electrical, seeing as my experience there is limited to minor projects, simple house wiring, etc. I also have no skills with sketch-up, so I'm working with Paint :rockin:

I've been doing all grain for a year or so, but we moved into a condo, so I have no space for all my gear. Also, I only have an electric stove, so going eBIAB seems like the way to go. I'm planing on recirculating the mash, but I haven't done that before, so a lot of this is going to be new to me.

The goal is to end up with something like this: High Gravity BIAB, but with some more control over things (and shiny stuff), without the SWMBO killing me.

A few questions:

1. I was looking at MoreBeer's Ultimate Sparge Arm, which looks super cool, but I've never recirculated before, so I dont know if that's any better (or necessary) than a sprayer or another type of sparge arm. Or should I just try to whirlpool it with an angled pickup/outlet?

2. I have what I'm calling a "Temperature Tee" which is a stainless steel tee with a temp probe in the middle with camlocks on the ends. I plan on using this to get the temp of the mash at the point of recirculation, rather than down by the element. I was also going to use it on the outlet of my plate chiller. Is this overkill and/or stupid?

3. I'm planning on using the E-Stop switch as an on/off switch. I don't see the point of having an on/off and an e-stop. And I like the e-stop because it looks cool :cross: - any problems with this?

4. GFI. Yes, I realize that this is important and should be implemented (but I haven't designed that yet). It looks like the cheapest and most popular route is to use a spa panel. Is there anything stopping me from buying a 240v GFI breaker and installing it directly in my tool box? If I can do that, I assume it should be the first thing the power touches in the box.

I think that's all I can think of right now. Please let me know what you think, where I've messed up, etc.

EDIT: Added better images, removed crappy ones, using my equipment list.

This is the album of my designs.

Kettle Design:

Transfer Design:

Control Box Wiring:

Mash:

Boil:

Chill:

Clean:

 

[rgauthier20420]

I'm of no help.....but the Paint drawings are awesome!:rockin:

 

[choirjon]

Love the drawings.


Cheers

 

[evan5159]

I just had a small stroke

 

[cgherrington3]

I just had a small stroke

Why/when/how did BIAB get so complicated?

 

[weathejx]

You are Picasso?

Pretty much. It ain't pretty, but I use the tools I have.

Why/when/how did BIAB get so complicated?

This comment seems to arise in most of the eBIAB build threads. Nothing has to be complicated. We can just go buy beer at the store. To each his own, I'm just trying to get some help from the people that have gone this route before.

 

[Willum]

My system is similar to what you are designing. You may want to look at it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/5500w-e-biab-build-finally-finished-423791/

That sparge arm is cool, but $150 is too rich for my blood.

 

[weathejx]

My system is similar to what you are designing. You may want to look at it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/5500w-e-biab-build-finally-finished-423791/

That sparge arm is cool, but $150 is too rich for my blood.

That is pretty similar, thanks! I agree that $150 is a tough pill to swallow, plus i dont think it'll work because the height of the bag/basket and the u-bend in the arm.

Do you have a larger version of the wiring diagram? What software did you use to make it?

 

[jCOSbrew]

Sparge arm is for fly sparging, you don't need this for biab.

If you insulate the kettle you won't need to add heat. I use a small solar pump at full flow when I recirculate during the mash.

 

[weathejx]

Sparge arm is for fly sparging, you don't need this for biab.

If you insulate the kettle you won't need to add heat. I use a small solar pump at full flow when I recirculate during the mash.

What would you suggest for recirculating? I assume I need to spread out the liquid over the bag to get the benefits of recirculating. Can I recirculate by just whirlpooling from the top of the kettle or should I use a sprayer or one of those Loc Line things (which looks like it just whirlpools).

Thanks!

 

[sennister]

Here are my thoughts....

A few questions:

1. I was looking at MoreBeer's Ultimate Sparge Arm, which looks super cool, but I've never recirculated before, so I dont know if that's any better (or necessary) than a sprayer or another type of sparge arm. Or should I just try to whirlpool it with an angled pickup/outlet?

I will let someone else comment here. Others might provide better feedback.

2. I have what I'm calling a "Temperature Tee" which is a stainless steel tee with a temp probe in the middle with camlocks on the ends. I plan on using this to get the temp of the mash at the point of recirculation, rather than down by the element. I was also going to use it on the outlet of my plate chiller. Is this overkill and/or stupid?

I am actually planning something very much like this.

3. I'm planning on using the E-Stop switch as an on/off switch. I don't see the point of having an on/off and an e-stop. And I like the e-stop because it looks cool :cross: - any problems with this?

With this one I would say it depends. No reason you can't but it depends on how you wire it. Some people will use the emergency stop to leak current to ground causing the GFCI in the main panel or Spa Panel to trip. The advantage with this is it cuts all power going into the control panel. However if you want to use the E-stop as a power switch that means resetting it won't power it back on you would have to go back to your Spa Panel or main breaker box which could be a PITA. It could be wired so that it acts like a master on/off though. Just watch the design.

4. GFI. Yes, I realize that this is important and should be implemented (but I haven't designed that yet). It looks like the cheapest and most popular route is to use a spa panel. Is there anything stopping me from buying a 240v GFI breaker and installing it directly in my tool box? If I can do that, I assume it should be the first thing the power touches in the box.

NO!!! Don't put it in your tool box!!!! The GFCI can only protect things down stream from it. If you install it in your tool box (not sure how you would even do that), if water/wort/beer were to be spilled on the tool box it could trip the GFCI however it wouldn't necessarily trip the main breaker. This means that you could possibly trip the GFCI but still have live 240V going into your tool box even if the breaker was the first thing. This could kill you.

You want the GFCI in the main circuit panel or further down the line in a spa panel. From that you have an outlet which your control panel plugs into. Now if something trips the GFCI all power being sent to your control panel (tool box) would be stopped and you won't die. So keep your GFCI away from your brewery not inside the panel.

Getting to the other part of your question. Spa panels can be cheaper. Keep in mind that you may have to add not only the spa panel but also a regular 240V breaker in your main panel unless you had a spare in there not being used. So you have to add that cost to the Spa Panel option. Normally it is pretty close in price in the end. The thing you need to know is not all breakers are the same. So when you are adding a breaker to your main panel (either a GFCI or regular one to run to a Spa Panel) you have to get the same make and model as what you have for a panel. If you have a Square-D main panel you need a Square-D breaker. You can't get the cheaper GE Breaker as it probably won't fit. This make is harder to shop for the cheapest option. You are limited in your choices. You can buy a spa panel of any brand though because it doesn't physically connect to the main panel. So you can shop around for the best price on whatever Spa Panel meets your needs for load. then get the non-GFCI breaker for your main panel matched to the make and model. So just making up ball park numbers you could be looking at $65 for a spa panel + $20 for the breaker in the main panel for a total of about $85. Or the other option is a GFCI for the main panel which might run $90. End result is the end cost may be pretty darn close. Make sense? Of course if you had a breaker not in use then Spa Panel would be cheaper so too many factors to say what is best.

Also another benefit to the Spa Panel option.

Lets say you have a 30A 240 outlet in the garage already for a welder. Then you add one in the basement for brewing there. Well it might be a really nice summer day and you want to brew in the garage rather than sit in the basement and heat up the house. Move your stuff out there. Have the spa panel mounted to a board with a plug that can be plugged into either 30A 240v outlet (or 50A if you are doing that) Then an outlet on that board that your control panel plugs into. Leave the spa panel way over by the wall away from your brewery to protect you as I mentioned above, and brew away. Now you have a portable GFCI which you wouldn't have if the breaker was in your main panel. Or take it to a buddy's house or cabin and brew there. As long as you have a compatible outlet you can brew there. This is where you get a little more flexibility with the Spa Panel.

 

[weathejx]

Lets say you have a 30A 240 outlet in the garage already for a welder. Then you add one in the basement for brewing there. Well it might be a really nice summer day and you want to brew in the garage rather than sit in the basement and heat up the house. Move your stuff out there. Have the spa panel mounted to a board with a plug that can be plugged into either 30A 240v outlet (or 50A if you are doing that) Then an outlet on that board that your control panel plugs into. Leave the spa panel way over by the wall away from your brewery to protect you as I mentioned above, and brew away. Now you have a portable GFCI which you wouldn't have if the breaker was in your main panel. Or take it to a buddy's house or cabin and brew there. As long as you have a compatible outlet you can brew there. This is where you get a little more flexibility with the Spa Panel.

Thanks for the info. I think I'll go the "Portable Spa Panel" route. We have two 240v circuits that I can use, the electric range (40 amp breaker) or the electric dryer (30 amp breaker) - both in my kitchen. The main breaker box is also in the kitchen, so I guess running a new 240v circuit isn't out of the question either. I like the idea of being able to bring the Spa Panel around with me to brew at friend's houses, so I'll do that rather than install a new gfci circuit in the breaker box.

So, if i have my portable Spa Panel, is there any issue with me running an extension cord from behind the dryer, so the plug is more accessible, keeping the dryer plugged in most of the time and then plugging the spa panel in during brew days?

 

[sennister]

Thanks for the info. I think I'll go the "Portable Spa Panel" route. We have two 240v circuits that I can use, the electric range (40 amp breaker) or the electric dryer (30 amp breaker) - both in my kitchen. The main breaker box is also in the kitchen, so I guess running a new 240v circuit isn't out of the question either. I like the idea of being able to bring the Spa Panel around with me to brew at friend's houses, so I'll do that rather than install a new gfci circuit in the breaker box.

So, if i have my portable Spa Panel, is there any issue with me running an extension cord from behind the dryer, so the plug is more accessible, keeping the dryer plugged in most of the time and then plugging the spa panel in during brew days?

The biggest potential issue that I can see is that many times dryer plugs are 3 wire. It depends on how old things are to say what you have.

I did a quick search for a pic and came across this page that explains it pretty well.

http://www.buildmyowncabin.com/electrical/how-to-wire-dryer.html

Older homes are going to have 3 wire typically. This will be 2 hot wires and 1 neutral. Newer homes and more current codes will call for 4 wires where you have the same 3 wires as before but then add a dedicated ground.

In the case of the brewery, I would prefer the ground wire to be there. It gives the power somewhere to go if there is a problem. In brewing you are dealing with metal conductors and a wet environment which is a recipe for disaster if you have a problem.

As far as an extension cord. Shouldn't be an issue as long as the wires the right gauge. Maybe relocate the outlet to a more continent location? If not reasonable then an extension cord would work. If you are building your panel you will likely be building your power cables anyhow. Get a little extra wire and put the ends needed on the wires and you will be all set.

 

[weathejx]

The biggest potential issue that I can see is that many times dryer plugs are 3 wire. It depends on how old things are to say what you have.

Luckily our house is new enough to have the ground wire. Is running it through a circuit with a 30 amp breaker on it going to be ok?

 

[sennister]

Luckily our house is new enough to have the ground wire. Is running it through a circuit with a 30 amp breaker on it going to be ok?

Sure just stay below 30A max load.

 

[weathejx]

So I spent some time in Visio properly designing my system.

If you guys could double check my work before I put in my orders, that would be great!

Questions:

1. As far as the wiring goes, it seems like a lot of people are using a contactor and a physical switch before the element, but I'm not sure I need that. I'm planning on using a contactor as the power is coming into the box, and a NC e-stop on the coil. Slap the e-stop, no power coming in. Does this make sense? Or should I be using a physical SW with a contactor at the element instead.

2. Are my wire gauges correct?

Kettle Design:

Transfer Design:

Control Box Wiring:

 

[jeffmeh]

The DPST, NO contactor with a switch is used so that you can be certain that there is no power at the element. SSRs leak current and can fail closed (on), so you cannot trust the SSR for that. If you are willing to completely power down the panel when the element is not in use, you don't need it, but then you would unable to monitor temps through the PID or use the timer, as those would be powered down as well.

 

[weathejx]

The DPST, NO contactor with a switch is used so that you can be certain that there is no power at the element. SSRs leak current and can fail closed (on), so you cannot trust the SSR for that. If you are willing to completely power down the panel when the element is not in use, you don't need it, but then you would unable to monitor temps through the PID or use the timer, as those would be powered down as well.

Ok, so I updated the wiring and put the contactor in front of the element plug and changed the yellow LED to a SW. Now, when the control box is plugged in, the hot bus is energized and the PID and Timer get power. The pump and elements are controlled by switches. I changed my e-stop to the leech-and-trip-gfci type.

Thoughts?

Control Box v0.2

 

[mattd2]

I wouldn't worry about the temp probe in the kettle - it won't tell you anything of additional value if you are reciculating during the mash (and just recirc when your heating to strike temp)