Pitching on yeast cake?

[Piratwolf]

I'm having trouble figuring this one out. Many people seem to pitch their beer on a yeast cake. Does that mean that they pour freshly brewed beer onto the leftover sediment from a previous brew? Are there sanitation issues? Does the new beer pick up flavor from the old trub? This noob is confused!

 

[onthekeg]

Yes if its a similar beer or a darker beer, you won't have any issues with dumping a fresh batch on a recently racked cake.

 

[Mongrel]

A lot of people just dump it into the fermentor on that leftover cake with no issues. I prefer a freshly sanitized bucket, but have scooped out about 1/4 - 1/3 of the cake (from the top portion) many times, and it has worked very well. I've always built up to darker/hoppier brews, and bottle the previous batch during the new boil.

 

[Golddiggie]

Personally, you won't find me pouring fresh wort into a dirty fermenter. IF I'm going to re-use yeast, I'll wash it and clean the primary (or have another, clean/sanitized one, to use)... I know people say they do it all the time, but I just can't bring myself to put perfectly good wort into a dirty primary. Once the brew has left the primary, you can have all sorts of things land in it. You're best option, IMO, is to wash the yeast from the previous batch (bottle on a different day) and use it on a subsequent brew day. I would also make a starter for the yeast, to ensure you have a healthy (and ready to rock-n-roll) population of yeast for the new brew.

Oh, and washing means you don't need to worry nearly as much about what the yeast came out of...

I was washing my yeast while unemployed, so that I could brew and save ~$8/batch. I'm working now, and unless it's a yeast that's in the PC list from Wyeast, and I REALLY want to use it again (before it's offered again), I just use fresh yeast. Especially after reading the section about this in the new Yeast book...

 

[Piratwolf]

Thanks onthekeg! That's really exciting as I just brewed a pale ale and am going for an American IPA next!

 

[Piratwolf]

Goldiggle, that sounds reasonable. How does one wash yeast?

 

[Golddiggie]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/

 

[Piratwolf]

Man, I love this place! You guys rock! Where else can you get clear, tried-and-true advice for FREE... which ends up as the greatest BEvERage known to man?!

 

[Brew_4iT]

Sometimes I just clean the ring of spent krausen and the lid before reusing yeast right after siphoned off beer. I wouldn't go more than a couple times, especially if previous batches had spices, late hops additions (no muslin bag), or other adjuncts. My trub consisted mostly of orange peels, coriander seeds, and hops... Seems kind of odd to do a later batch of belgian witbier without coriander and get a few seeds in a glass from a previous batch..... if you know what I mean

Just to note because of these reasons I'm taking the extra steps to wash yeast from now on. Even just fridging it for an hour in a jar will layer it so that you can retain mostly yeast.

First layer liquid, old beer
second white creamy yeast ( what you want)
then trub, layers of different sediment you don't want

 

[Golddiggie]

Ahem, ONE of the greatest beverages known to man... IMO, it's tied with mead... Two ancient brews/beverages that have been helping people get happy for eons... :rockin:

 

[Piratwolf]

Ahem, ONE of the greatest beverages known to man... IMO, it's tied with mead... Two ancient brews/beverages that have been helping people get happy for eons... :rockin:

Cheers to that! Only tried mead once but it was delicious. That's on my plans for next year

 

[Golddiggie]

Bringing two 375ml bottles of my traditional mead made back in November (2010) to a family gathering tomorrow. It's been chilling since last night, so it should be really ready by tomorrow, when I get up there. This will be my first time sampling the batch, so I'm unsure of what it will be like. I do expect it to be a bit sweet, but strong. FG was just north of 1.020, and at 18% ABV.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Nice dude, was that a rigid yeast nutrient schedule to get to that abv or was it a "set it and forget it" kind of thing?

 

[Golddiggie]

Stepped nutrient/degass/aerate for not even a week (before it hit the 1/3 break) then left it the F alone for months... Racked a few times, as it looked ready, to get it off the lees and looks sooooo damned good now... I want to open up one of the bottles now and drink it. I just know that if I do, I won't be good to do much of anything else all night. Not a bad thing, but I have a few things left to do... :rockin:

My next batch, or batches, of mead will benefit from my increased experience and gear. For one thing, I plan to use pure O2 to oxygenate the must. I also plan on making a starter for the yeast (on my stir plate). I'll also make 3-4 gallons in my 5 gallon carboy, reserving a bit extra to replenish the hydrometer sample loss. I also plan on aging it in a keg instead of carboys or bottles. Next batch, I plan on making even stronger, aging it longer. Projecting 20-21% ABV... All depends on what I get for honey and such. But, I do plan on making traditional meads moving forward. I made one blackberry melomel that's not even close to being 'good' yet... Not sure if it ever will be either. Maybe I'll try another fruit/flavored mead in a few years. Until then, I want the honey to shine on through!!

 

[guinnessface]

A word of caution: I've re-used a california ale yeast a number of times and washed it thoroughly. Fortunately or unfortunately, it's hard to get rid of the hop aroma. You may want to consider re-using yeast for similar styles only. It's a good way to save $8 every time though!

 

[dwscott135]

I need some insight. I brewed a sour ale from a 3 day sour mash, (boiled), pitched it on a two day Wyeast trappist starter and it leapt into fermentation. I let the primary ferm finish and brewed a brown ale to pitch on the cake once I transferred the sour ale. I transferred the sour ale to the secondary while my new brown ale was boiling, and plugged it with a sanitized airlock. There was a large healthy cake left from the previous beer. From everything I read, I was expecting the new brown ale to explode into fermentation, and that a blowoff tube was absolutely necessary. I siphoned the new brown ale onto the cake, plugged the carboy and aerated vigorously, airlocked, and set in a room at 70 F at about 7:00 pm. The following morning, there was absolutely zero action in the carboy. I had to aerate vigorously again, TWICE, (8 hours apart) before I got it to kick, then it seemed to progress nicely, but nothing that required a blowoff tube. This has me scared to try this again. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[guinnessface]

I need some insight. I brewed a sour ale from a 3 day sour mash, (boiled), pitched it on a two day Wyeast trappist starter and it leapt into fermentation. I let the primary ferm finish and brewed a brown ale to pitch on the cake once I transferred the sour ale. I transferred the sour ale to the secondary while my new brown ale was boiling, and plugged it with a sanitized airlock. There was a large healthy cake left from the previous beer. From everything I read, I was expecting the new brown ale to explode into fermentation, and that a blowoff tube was absolutely necessary. I siphoned the new brown ale onto the cake, plugged the carboy and aerated vigorously, airlocked, and set in a room at 70 F at about 7:00 pm. The following morning, there was absolutely zero action in the carboy. I had to aerate vigorously again, TWICE, (8 hours apart) before I got it to kick, then it seemed to progress nicely, but nothing that required a blowoff tube. This has me scared to try this again. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

How long did you let the starter ferment? If it was more than a few days, and a cake formed at the bottom, then I'm guessing the yeast went back into dormancy. The starter should be pitched a day or two after activation to get best results. Every starter I've done has had a subtle fermentation (slow stream of bubbles rising from bottom to top). It shouldn't be as active as your primary fermentation.

As far as a blow off tube is concerned, that should just be a precaution. I've made some pretty big beers that didn't ferment violently. It's really hard to predict that sometimes. As long as you have a steady bubbling airlock you're good to go.

 

[dwscott135]

Guinnessface,

Maybe I wasn't clear. The starter was not the issue. The issue was with the wort that I pitched directly on the cake left behind in the primary from the previous beer. It was extremely slow to kick. I had to aerate, "vigorously" on multiple occasions to get it to kick. wort was cooled to 70 F, and it was in a room at about the same temp. I expected it to kick quickly, and then I would move it to a cooler spot to keep it from getting too hot. Thanks.

 

[guinnessface]

Oh, I got it.... you poured the new wort onto a cake from a previous batch. A yeast cake is still largely dormant yeast. Regardless of the amount, you probably won't get as active a fermentation as you would from a starter. How strong is the brown ale you pitched? If it's a big beer? If so, that would also contribute to a slow start in lieu of a starter.

Is that any help?

 

[dwscott135]

Guinnessface,

I'm sorry, but that is contrary to everything I have read. People regularly pitch bigger, and bigger beers on 2nd and third generation yeast cakes in order to achieve higher attenuation. This is only new territory to me, and "I" obviously did something wrong. I was hoping for some input from someone who has experience with this process. Thanks.

 

[guinnessface]

Alrighty then, sorry to waste your time.

 

[Taquina]

Does pitching on the yeast cake make the fermentation go faster? I pitched on my red ale yeast cake the other day and got active fermentation with hours, but then it dropped off to nearly nothing within 2 days. Should I rack to secondary earlier than usual?

I typically check consecutive hydrometer readings after 5-7 days based on activity.

Thanks!

 

[iambeer]

The terms you are looking for are

1. yeast cake contains undesirable break/trub
2. yeast cake is also called slurry
3. yeast wash = pouring distilled (no oxygen nor mineral) water on the cake, stirring, letting the trub fall and harvesting the rest.

and that 'over pitching' results in different results. There are incredible resources about under and over pitching yeast and how they, depending on the yeast and style you are brewing, may benefit you.

As for your question... maybe. not enough into

 

[Budzien]

i recently pitched an oktoberfest style onto a Koelsch yeast cake (I'm not set up to Lager) and had fermentation within 8 hours. I've been given a lot of advice on this forum not to rack to the secondary too early (made that mistake with a tripel that I'm still choking down). Almost everyone agreed that you don't need to rack to a secondary for a few weeks, if at all.

 

[annoyingrob]

I frequently re-use the yeast slurry from one batch to pitch into subsequent batches of the same style, but that's usually using a half or a third of the yeast that ended up in the bottom of the carboy, not the whole cake.

The only time I ever pitched on top of a whole cake was just to see what It would do. I made two extract batches of a red ale about a week apart, racked the first to a secondary, and pitched the new batch right into the old fermenter. I came back 4 hours later to find the airlock on the floor, and a mountain of foaming goodness flowing out of the carboy, down the side, and on to the floor. I was glad I decided to put it on the concrete beside the drain. That second batch really fermented vigorously and ended up with a really interesting fruity flavour to it. I wouldn't call it bad, but it was not expected. I believe it was caused by the significant amount of yeast in the second fermentation.

Take what you want from it, but I recommend not pitching onto the whole yeast cake unless you're stepping up to a much higher gravity wort. Take some of it out first before you pitch.

 

[Taquina]

Thanks. This is my first time doing it and I sort of wanted to see it in action myself. I got vigorous fermantation, but I had replaced the airlock with a blow off hose and had no problems with spilling over. I probably should have removed some of the cake or washed it; maybe next time.

 

[Stauffbier]

I pour about 75-80% of the yeast cake into a jar to wash later and pitch on the remaining 20-25%, and I get vigorous fermentations from that which require blow off tubes...

 

[jwalker1140]

Best thread I've found about pitching on a yeast cake:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

Read the whole thing if you want, but everything you need to know is in the first post.