Pitching on a cake - advice needed

[wolverinebrewer]

I just wish when an OP is asking for advice on a procedure they would get the best advice and not just an answer on something that worked once. At least thats what I want for my questions. Maybe I'm different though. *shrugs*

 

[Bsquared]

Commercial breweries pitch very specific amounts of yeast. That's a pretty strong vote for a "right way" to do things in my book.

If you don't feel comfortable going through the entire washing procedure, at least make an effort to dump, say, half of the yeast cake out.

I always post this in threads where people talk about pitching onto a cake: why go through all the trouble and nitpicking to develop the perfect grain bill, carefully timed and measured hop additions, mash temps and techniques that squeak out a couple extra points of efficiency, only to dump a fat yeast turd in your beer? Making wort is easy, making beer is done by the yeast - treat 'em with respect.

Amen!

 

[claphamsa]

I just wish when an OP is asking for advice on a procedure they would get the best advice and not just an answer on something that worked once. At least thats what I want for my questions. Maybe I'm different though. *shrugs*

i think he got great answers... there is a best way, and it was given, and the alternate opinion of yes, that was the best way, but its not worth the effort was also given.

 

[juslod]

I just wish when an OP is asking for advice on a procedure they would get the best advice and not just an answer on something that worked once. At least thats what I want for my questions. Maybe I'm different though. *shrugs*

You are expecting too much though- the majority of answers you are going to get are opinion. You will hear 20 different answers when you ask a question and to the person answering it for you it is their "best advice".

 

[wolverinebrewer]

i think he got great answers... there is a best way, and it was given, and the alternate opinion of yes, that was the best way, but its not worth the effort was also given.

I would agree that the OP got great answers. But answers were all over the board. No consensus, just multiple opinions. So, if I was a new brewer asking this, I would still not know the best way just that there are many ways.

I like this forum and it has hundreds of years of brewing experience behind the responses. But when I read on new topics, there are many times when I come away still being confused with what to do about a certain issue. And I think its because sometimes there is not a consensus. I just like having a majority opinion. That's all.

 

[Pilgarlic]

There's an important difference between offering suggestions for improved process and calling out someone's process as unacceptable. It's awfully tempting in any pursuit to fall into the "right/wrong" dichotomy when it really doesn't apply. Offer suggestions for improvement. Of course. Offer information. But don't tell someone their dumping on a yeast cake is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using extract is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using dry yeast is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using 5.2 buffer is unacceptable because there are better practices, or regulating your Ranco or Johnson controller with the bulb in the freezer is unacceptable because there are better practices (a bulb), or.... there are many types of home brewers, with many types of personalities, capabilities and objectives. There is a vast array of practices all of which are 'acceptable' depending upon those personalities, capabilities and objectives. Make suggestions, offer information, and those who are inclined will embrace them. Those who aren't needn't be told that their pursuit of their hobby is wrong.

 

[claphamsa]

the correct answer is to wash it and pitch the correct amount

but its not really gonna make a big enough difference to be worth the trouble.

hope that clears it up.

 

[mummasan]

I made two batches with the 'pitch on the entire yeast cake' method and they both turned out badly. I made beer - but it was beer that tasted bad.

Then I read a post on here by Brewer Bob - he outlined how to reuse yeast in a super easy way. I have followed his yeast harvesting method about 10 times and I get great tasting beer every time. This is what I do - rack a finished beer off the yeast, swirl the remaining beer and yeast together, pour off 2 cups of yeast into a sanitzed jar, refrigerate, reuse within seven days. Typically I will only reuse 1 cup of the collected yeast but I collect 2 cups just in case.

 

[wolverinebrewer]

You are expecting too much though- the majority of answers you are going to get are opinion. You will hear 20 different answers when you ask a question and to the person answering it for you it is their "best advice".

Maybe I am expecting too much. That's me. I have very very high expectations. The reason I am on this forum and not some of the others that I have visited is that my expectations seem to be much more satisfied here because of the respect I have for the brewing knowledge that is here and that you all are willing to give it out. This forum is addicting and has helped me make beer better than I have ever would have imagined. So thumbs up to all of you. I just wish that when I ask how often I should go get my teeth cleaned, The answers would be 9 votes for every six months and only 1 for every 3 years. Instead, many times I get 3 votes for every six months, 3 votes for every three years and 4 votes for what is a dentist?

 

[wolverinebrewer]

There's an important difference between offering suggestions for improved process and calling out someone's process as unacceptable. It's awfully tempting in any pursuit to fall into the "right/wrong" dichotomy when it really doesn't apply. Offer suggestions for improvement. Of course. Offer information. But don't tell someone their dumping on a yeast cake is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using extract is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using dry yeast is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using 5.2 buffer is unacceptable because there are better practices, or regulating your Ranco or Johnson controller with the bulb in the freezer is unacceptable because there are better practices (a bulb), or.... there are many types of home brewers, with many types of personalities, capabilities and objectives. There is a vast array of practices all of which are 'acceptable' depending upon those personalities, capabilities and objectives. Make suggestions, offer information, and those who are inclined will embrace them. Those who aren't needn't be told that their pursuit of their hobby is wrong.

I would agree. I don't think anyone here used the word unacceptable or right or wrong.

 

[beerchemist]

Maybe I went about answering this the "wrong" way, but I only said:

1) The correct way to make beer is one that produces beer you enjoy, and enjoy making. If a chronic overpitcher is happy with his beer, is it wrong? If I only do all-grain with whole-leaf hops, does that make extract brewing or using pellets wrong? But I also use dry yeast, so all my beer is obviously crap.

2) The main problem with overpitching is a lack of ester production. If you're looking for a fast, clean fermentation without much yeast character, then it's not a Bad Thing.

3) OP can pitch his barleywine on a pale ale yeast cake and it'll probably be Just Fine.


Basically, what Pilgarlic said.

 

[Johnny9]

wow...5 pages in less than a day. Good thing he didn't ask if he should secondary not....

going back into my beer cave now...uhg

 

[kanzimonson]

I like what Pilgarlic is saying about keeping our advice slanted towards presenting facts and not bashing anyone, but isn't it the nature of giving advice that you're trying to convince everyone else that your method is right and others are wrong? It's hard not to take a stance.

Also, I don't consider science to be a democracy. What I mean is, you don't take votes on the best way to cure cancer - you try a bunch of things, you determine what produces better results, and you go with that until something better comes along.

I believe (maybe incorrectly) that people come to HBT and ask questions always with the intention of making their beer better. Nobody wants to make worse beer, and I doubt many people want to stay flatline in the quality of their beer. So I don't think it's a bad thing to back up my stance on yeast cake pitching by referencing commercial brewers and successful homebrewers, and then say that I think it's a better practice than cake dumping. These people are making better beer, and that's why you came to this forum.

Everything is this thread has been "easy way vs scientific way." It's not like we're presenting fact for the "oxygenation vs olive oil debate." At least there it's a conversation about two techniques... yeast cake dumping vs proper pitch rates is like creationism and evolution - two incompatible things that can barely be compared on common grounds.

Glad to see this hasn't turned nasty though.

 

[beerchemist]

I like what Pilgarlic is saying about keeping our advice slanted towards presenting facts and not bashing anyone, but isn't it the nature of giving advice that you're trying to convince everyone else that your method is right and others are wrong? It's hard not to take a stance.

Also, I don't consider science to be a democracy. What I mean is, you don't take votes on the best way to cure cancer - you try a bunch of things, you determine what produces better results, and you go with that until something better comes along.

I believe (maybe incorrectly) that people come to HBT and ask questions always with the intention of making their beer better. Nobody wants to make worse beer, and I doubt many people want to stay flatline in the quality of their beer. So I don't think it's a bad thing to back up my stance on yeast cake pitching by referencing commercial brewers and successful homebrewers, and then say that I think it's a better practice than cake dumping. These people are making better beer, and that's why you came to this forum.

Everything is this thread has been "easy way vs scientific way." It's not like we're presenting fact for the "oxygenation vs olive oil debate." At least there it's a conversation about two techniques... yeast cake dumping vs proper pitch rates is like creationism and evolution - two incompatible things that can barely be compared on common grounds.

Glad to see this hasn't turned nasty though.

Fair enough. I'm just about to embark on making glycerol stocks of some liquid yeast, now that I have access to a -80... should be a nice change from using S-04 and US-05 for every beer I make.

 

[juslod]

Maybe I am expecting too much. That's me. I have very very high expectations. The reason I am on this forum and not some of the others that I have visited is that my expectations seem to be much more satisfied here because of the respect I have for the brewing knowledge that is here and that you all are willing to give it out. This forum is addicting and has helped me make beer better than I have ever would have imagined. So thumbs up to all of you. I just wish that when I ask how often I should go get my teeth cleaned, The answers would be 9 votes for every six months and only 1 for every 3 years. Instead, many times I get 3 votes for every six months, 3 votes for every three years and 4 votes for what is a dentist?

I understand this, but the large majority of people have correct answers because there isn't only 1 way to do things in brewing. In the end, the product is beer and different methods may not even result in such a change that the human can detect. I have siphoned beer on to whole yeast cakes and never tasted a hint of yeasty flavor or anything negitive! One of the most fun things in my mind is trying out the many different methods offered on this forum, because it gives me new experiences

 

[Sheldon]

I have been following the very articulate conversation on this thread I created and really appreciate the knowledge you all impart. Its interesting to observe that there are in fact more than 1 way to continue the process and I want to learn to do more than just toss the old cake and use new yeast every time I brew. I will try and experiment and hopefully increase my confidence and ability to create new and better tasting beers as I progress.

Thanks and cheers to all who have spoken.

Sheldon

 

[wolverinebrewer]

I like what Pilgarlic is saying about keeping our advice slanted towards presenting facts and not bashing anyone, but isn't it the nature of giving advice that you're trying to convince everyone else that your method is right and others are wrong? It's hard not to take a stance.

Also, I don't consider science to be a democracy. What I mean is, you don't take votes on the best way to cure cancer - you try a bunch of things, you determine what produces better results, and you go with that until something better comes along.

I believe (maybe incorrectly) that people come to HBT and ask questions always with the intention of making their beer better. Nobody wants to make worse beer, and I doubt many people want to stay flatline in the quality of their beer. So I don't think it's a bad thing to back up my stance on yeast cake pitching by referencing commercial brewers and successful homebrewers, and then say that I think it's a better practice than cake dumping. These people are making better beer, and that's why you came to this forum.

Everything is this thread has been "easy way vs scientific way." It's not like we're presenting fact for the "oxygenation vs olive oil debate." At least there it's a conversation about two techniques... yeast cake dumping vs proper pitch rates is like creationism and evolution - two incompatible things that can barely be compared on common grounds.

Glad to see this hasn't turned nasty though.

Kanz, like I was saying to one of the other posters, this wasn't about right vs. wrong. Every solution given to the OP was a right answer.

But for me as a new brewer, if I was to ask about my idea of pitching onto a yeast cake, I would hope you would say, yes that would work but this other idea would help you make better beer. Thats is all I was saying. Put yourself in my shoes as a new brewer and ask yourself "did I give the OP the best answer to his question?" If you think pitching onto a yeast cake is a good idea, then tell me why. Even if my question is a moronic idea (in general, not in this case) give me the scoop. Don't just tell me what you think I want to hear. I'm a new brewer and I always want the best advice.
I'm here because I am assuming YOU are the best..... Please don't prove me wrong.
And there is no reason to get nasty. We are all striving for the same thing.

 

[Bsquared]

IMO there are vary few things you really control in the brewing process that effects the quality of your beer.
1)Sanitation
2)Temperature
3)Yeast pitching rates/ yeast viability

Why you would want to relinquish control of any of these pentameters is besides me. when you pitch on to the yeast cake you have no control over your pitching rate or your yeasts viability. Its just good practice to use the proper amount of healthy yeast for a given beer.

for all the new brewers out there read this "Yeast: a practical guide" you'll learn a ton, things I wish i knew ten years ago.

for all the old brewers, if you had not read it read it. it will make you warm a fuzzy inside confirming all the steps you take to pitch the proper amount of yeast for your beer.As well you will learn some cool tricks to add to your brewing process.

I know for some people personal experiences will trump common wisdom, and figure its fine to do this because it worked before. And thats great for you, but for the younger brewers who are not as experienced, don't pass on your bad habits.

 

[Sheldon]

This is getting more complicated as time goes on. I have never re-used yeast so this would be my first experience. From what I think I have gathered here it seems that pitching my Barleywine on about half of the yeast cake from the CPA I am making today would work and would not under or over pitch. Is that correct?

I have seen suggestions to both pitch directly and pitch after washing. I do not want to ruin the Barleywine, nor do I want to expose the yeast to any contamination during the transition. So, I am again looking for the safest route to use with re-use of the CPA cake. Is that a question wth only one answer or is it like asking someone how they like their steak? I guess I could use a totally new yeast for the Barleywine, but that doesn't allow me to grow my experience. I hope you all understand my desire to make great beer and keep learning how to improve my methods and products.

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[Johnny9]

There has been some really good info in this thread. I for one am going to buy the "Practical Guide to Yeast" book suggested earlier, sounds like a great read.

So, I am again looking for the safest route to use with re-use of the CPA cake.

At the risk of passing on my bad habits.....

If you are looking for Safety against over-pitching, then wash it first and use a Mr. Malty to determine the right volume. Having never washed yeast before, it may seem complicated, but it really isn't - I do it all the time. See the wiki for details...its very well documented. Its a great technique you will want to master at some point anyway.

If you are looking for Safety against contanination (or if you are just looking a little simplicity since I think you stated this is your first AG)- then CONSIDER pitching on the cake in the same bucket. You ARE moving to a significantly larger beer, so..... You could also pour some of the cake out as suggested.

I am not an expert, I have only been brewing for about 2+ years.

Honestly I don't think that either option will ruin your Barleywine. So go with whatever feels good to you as a "Brewer".

RDWHAHB

oh and....medium rare please

 

[wolverinebrewer]

This is getting more complicated as time goes on. I have never re-used yeast so this would be my first experience. I guess I could use a totally new yeast for the Barleywine, but that doesn't allow me to grow my experience. I hope you all understand my desire to make great beer and keep learning how to improve my methods and products.

Thanks again for all your input.

Yes, as you advance it gets more complicated. But don't get discouraged. Take it at your own pace. I don't think you should expect to strap on a snowboard and within 2 weeks go take a gold medal away from Shaun White at the X-Games! Same with brewing, it takes a little time.