Pilsner turned out too bitter ... ???

[fun4stuff]

so I made a clone of prima pils (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/victory-prima-pils-clone/) and it turned out too bitter. One of my friends, who hates corriander and bitter orange, thought he tasted these in it... And I kinda see where he's coming from. Maybe it's a byproduct of the yeast? I followed the "quick" lager method mentioned on brulosopher website (admittedly, it was a rushed starter). I went from 1.053 to 1.010 in 2.5 weeks (had it sitting at 65 degrees for a week or so while I waited for a keg to open up). Used a 2L starter (2 steps from 1 L to 2L) according to homebrewdad calculator. Used RO water and added minerals to match the yellow dry profile in bru'n water. Hit my target mash pH of 5.4.

Any way... I made the recipe a few months ago, the same methods, and it turned out perfectly. Was very close to the real prima and very tasty.

What could Have went wrong? Something with the hops? ...I've made dozens of brews before and never really had a problem. I'm stumped.

 

[MaxStout]

Maybe a difference in AA in the hops from first time til this batch? If everything else is equal, I can't think of another way you'd get a big difference in bittering. With the first batch were the bittering hops old and perhaps contained less alpha?

 

[jtp137]

I actually used the quick lager method for a Octoberfest recently. I thought it turned out not so good even after months of lagering. It had a funny off flavor that I couldn’t put my finger on, my brother in law said tasted kind of fruity. Next lager I am going back to letting it sit at 48 for a month instead of the temp ramp

 

[stpug]

so I made a clone of prima pils (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/victory-prima-pils-clone/) and it turned out too bitter. One of my friends, who hates corriander and bitter orange, thought he tasted these in it... And I kinda see where he's coming from. Maybe it's a byproduct of the yeast? I followed the "quick" lager method mentioned on brulosopher website (admittedly, it was a rushed starter). I went from 1.053 to 1.010 in 2.5 weeks. Used a 2L starter (2 steps from 1 L to 2L) according to homebrewdad calculator. Used RO water and added minerals to match the yellow dry profile in bru'n water. Hit my target mash pH of 5.4.

Any way... I made the recipe a few months ago, the same methods, and it turned out perfectly. Was very close to the real prima and very tasty.

What could Have went wrong? Something with the hops? ...I've made dozens of brews before and never really had a problem. I'm stumped.

There are too many variables involved to pinpoint exactly where things may have gone awry. Posting a full recipe, brewday notes, AA of hops, fermentation profile, etc may elicit some clues, otherwise your best bet is to go back to basics with lager brewing and proceed in the "tried-and-true" ways.

 

[stpug]

I actually used the quick lager method for a Octoberfest recently. I thought it turned out not so good even after months of lagering. It had a funny off flavor that I couldn’t put my finger on, my brother in law said tasted kind of fruity. Next lager I am going back to letting it sit at 48 for a month instead of the temp ramp

"Fruity" in lagers is largely associated with increased ester production, and this is generally related to unnecessarily high fermentation temperatures. While the "Brewlosophy quick lager method" has seemed to work out for many folks, the results can be unpredictable due to the fact that we're working with a living organism - and not all behave the same under the same circumstances.

Besides, lagers can be fully fermented, kegged, and carbonated in as little as 6-7 days at 48F, so it's pretty hard to say that the Brewlosophy method is "quick". The actual lagering time - cold aging phase - remains the close to the same regardless of brewing method, although with this method it appears to not require quite the duration of other methods.

 

[fun4stuff]

Increased "bitterness" and/or maybe a more acidic/orange pith/lemoney is about the only way I can describe it. It's weird.its not undrinkable...just a completely different beer. I feel like I'm drinking a summer shandy.

The hops amounts are 1 oz or 2 oz... And those are sizes I bought them in. So not like I could have measured incorrectly.... And they're all 4-6% AA. I didn't boil longer than 60 mins. Maybe the AA was off or different I guess.

I guess I'll try a more typical lager method next time. Also will make sure the alpha acid units match the original recipe. Maybe I'll try a dry yeast like Saflager W-34/70.

 

[jtp137]

Interesting I also thought my Octoberfest was too bitter

 

[TurnipGreen]

"Fruity" in lagers is largely associated with increased ester production, and this is generally related to unnecessarily high fermentation temperatures. While the "Brewlosophy quick lager method" has seemed to work out for many folks, the results can be unpredictable due to the fact that we're working with a living organism - and not all behave the same under the same circumstances.

Besides, lagers can be fully fermented, kegged, and carbonated in as little as 6-7 days at 48F, so it's pretty hard to say that the Brewlosophy method is "quick". The actual lagering time - cold aging phase - remains the close to the same regardless of brewing method, although with this method it appears to not require quite the duration of other methods.

I’ve got this same recipe going right now. I literally just started to let the temp raise out of my fridge two days ago. (I’m pretty new to brewing lagers but born and bred in PA and I know prima pils well)

The bitterness of this pils is a bit high for a pils, but if you’re tasting lemon i’d Agee with stpug that fermentation temps might be at play.

You might try putting it up for a few months and letting the hops mellow out.

 

[fun4stuff]

I’ve got this same recipe going right now. I literally just started to let the temp raise out of my fridge two days ago. (I’m pretty new to brewing lagers but born and bred in PA and I know prima pils well)

The bitterness of this pils is a bit high for a pils, but if you’re tasting lemon i’d Agee with stpug that fermentation temps might be at play.

You might try putting it up for a few months and letting the hops mellow out.

Yeah, it’s a more highly hopped Pilsner... but the first time i made it, it turned out perfect. In fact, I don’t make many recipes twice... this was all set to become a regular on tap... but now i just need to figure out what went wrong! Bitterness/astringency/lemony... not good at describing it, but it ain’t quite right. It’s still drinkable... of course I’m not a very picky beer drinker either.

I have it lagering in my kegerator like you said... the first one did get better after the first month.

Did you do the double decoction and two mash rests? I did the two times i made it, but wondering if it’s really necessary.

 

[chris000]

if your description is right (fruity plus bitter), it might just be a combination of more bitterness from the hops and a warm fermentation.
your description doesn't highlight any grain substitutes or mash changes, so that's unlikely the reason then. anyway, don't look for a single reason. often the combination of a few little things cause the big change that is hard to explain.

 

[MrPowers]

My guess is that it’s a combination of higher AA hops than the first time you brewed it combined with warmer fermentation temperature. Always make sure you correct for AA differences of hops by adjusting the bittering addition (if there is one).

 

[Dcpcooks]

Did you use a different water source or perhaps the water source changes seasonally?

Chloride, carbonate and magnesium impact hop bitterness. Less hops are needed for the same perception with increased salt additions.

As to the fruity esters, I highly suspect fermentation temp is responsible for most of it.

 

[fun4stuff]

Same water: RO from local grocery store with mineral additions according to bru’n water... used same spreadsheet as before. I supposed i could have measured something incorrectly... i hit my mash oh target though. I’m definitely just going keep temps low next time.

 

[bleme]

My first guess is that it took you longer to chill this time than last. You will continue to extract bitterness from the hops after you turn off the flame.

 

[TurnipGreen]

Yeah, it’s a more highly hopped Pilsner... but the first time i made it, it turned out perfect. In fact, I don’t make many recipes twice... this was all set to become a regular on tap... but now i just need to figure out what went wrong! Bitterness/astringency/lemony... not good at describing it, but it ain’t quite right. It’s still drinkable... of course I’m not a very picky beer drinker either.

I have it lagering in my kegerator like you said... the first one did get better after the first month.

Did you do the double decoction and two mash rests? I did the two times i made it, but wondering if it’s really necessary.

Yeah, it’s a more highly hopped Pilsner... but the first time i made it, it turned out perfect. In fact, I don’t make many recipes twice... this was all set to become a regular on tap... but now i just need to figure out what went wrong! Bitterness/astringency/lemony... not good at describing it, but it ain’t quite right. It’s still drinkable... of course I’m not a very picky beer drinker either.

I have it lagering in my kegerator like you said... the first one did get better after the first month.

Did you do the double decoction and two mash rests? I did the two times i made it, but wondering if it’s really necessary.

No, I just kept it a 144 the whole time. I keep it pretty simple. I've got little kids so all of my brew days need to be simple enough that either my kids can help or forgiving enough that I can still play with them more than tending to the process.

I haven't done any decoction in a long time but a simple, all pils recipe like this would be the time to do it.

 

[fun4stuff]

No, I just kept it a 144 the whole time. I keep it pretty simple. I've got little kids so all of my brew days need to be simple enough that either my kids can help or forgiving enough that I can still play with them more than tending to the process.

I haven't done any decoction in a long time but a simple, all pils recipe like this would be the time to do it.

I may have to hit you up next time to find out how yours turned out... i have little kids too and wouldn’t mind saving some time if it’s not really necessary.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Same water: RO from local grocery store with mineral additions according to bru’n water... used same spreadsheet as before. I supposed i could have measured something incorrectly... i hit my mash oh target though. I’m definitely just going keep temps low next time.

It’s possible the filters were aged and you got a bit more unfiltered water than filtered water.

Just a spit ball but a TDS meter will let you know how RO your RO water really is.

 

[TurnipGreen]

I may have to hit you up next time to find out how yours turned out... i have little kids too and wouldn’t mind saving some time if it’s not really necessary.

I’ve been drinking this beer for about a month now. It’s pretty good. Not amazing but definitely good. This is my first real attempt at a lager.

I over shot the gravity a bit so I think the balance is off a bit. It’s not quite as hoppy/bitter as I would have liked (or prima pils is). Nor is it as crisp/dry as I would have liked. Although I do prefer beer on the dryer side. So that’s the criticism.

It super smooth and clean. Nice maltyness. I bottle and don’t work hard to make crystal clear beer, but this turned out pretty clear with a nice head.

If I do this again I’ll mash a wee bit lower, maybe use some sugar or honey (just to dry it to my palate) and definitely pay much closer attention to my target gravity

 

[Lefou]

When dreaming up and planning a beer style there's one particular thing I pay close attention to in the calculator.
It's the BU/GU ratio.
My beers are styled into BJCP categories. Most times it's a lighter style that has a generous range for gravity and hopping but the bittering ratio will stay near .4 to .5. I'm no fan of IPAs or bitterness but find my tastes run to balanced beers. I'll tolerate 40-50 IBU brews, but those are usually high gravity beers like stouts, tripels, or golden ales. Pilsners and blonde ales will definitely show very noticeable hoppiness when younger due to the ratio of hops-to-gravity levels.

Glad you saved and aged the beer somewhat.
I learned the same lesson with a hoppy blonde I made last year with Citra and Saaz. It was hoppy and slighty bitter early on, but as a month or two went by it got even better as the hops mellowed. My SG was 1.046 and FG ended up at 1.004. IBU level was near 25-29 Tinseth. The beer was bright gold, clear, very dry, nicely carbed, and was one of the better ales I'ved made.
That batch definitely didn't last long enough!