pH Acid-Adjustment Issue: Factory Mislabeled Bottles?

[Ratdog]

I appreciate you sharing all this @Peebee. I'm going to get one, and if nothing else, I have another way to check my calculations throughout the process and diagnose false assumptions before they get out of hand. My biggest brewing mistakes are assuming things are what they aren't.

Here are some of my brewing assumption fails - two of these could have been prevented if I had a p-meter on hand and used it.

• Phosphoric 10% is really 10%? Nope. Should have measured strike water pH before mashing to stop it. I wrecked three beers.
• Hydrometer reads correct? Nope. Hairline crack in it made it take on a little bit of sanitizer and it didn't read correct. No clue on finishing gravity for one beer.
• Thermometer reads correct? Nope, and I mistakenly mashed about thirty 5 gallon batches 5-6 C higher than I intended and I couldn't figure out why my beers didn't finish.

 

[DuncB]

Peebee
Very much a 20C calibrated hydrometer. It still has the boots price sticker on the box. Sadly I can't read the price. Would require forensic analysis for that.
But I reckon it cost pence back then.

The strongest phosphoric acid I can get is 50% still dangerous and destructive.
The burns from acid are not as damaging or difficult to treat as alkaline burns.

Never try to neutralise a chemical burn. Wash with plenty of cool water, seek help and wish you had some diphoterine on the shelf.

 

[MaxStout]

Just ordered my pycnometer from Amazon. Is it something I "need"? No. But I like gadgets and am curious to see how measurements stack up against my hydrometers.

 

[day_trippr]

It's apparent once you have the pycnometer, you need a scale that's precise enough to be up to the task.
Whatcha gonna use for that?

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

I'm not sure the accuracy of my scales. However by not checking them I can be " confident" they are accurate.
Also I don't want to verify my hydrometer or refractometer except against each other.
This keeps it easy for me.

 

[Peebee]

I've promised to demonstrate fetching the density of Phosphoric Acid. So here goes:

Scales calibrated (zeroed), pyknometer filled (carefully, that acid is nasty!), and weighed. Then ... disaster! I'd recently purged all the old versions of my handy spreadsheet. That wasn't the problem, plenty of up-to-date ones, like the ones linked in the thread I linked above (#23), but the purged spreadsheets had bottle weight of my 25ml pyknometer!

Not really a disaster, I can get that back. But a good lesson: When you get a new pyknometer, while it is dry, weigh it! To two-decimal places of a gram (or equivalent). It has to be so accurate because, as every school kid knows, liquids aren't compressible ... well almost not compressible, its those tiny, tiny, differences in compressibility that you are weighing to get the SG of your beer wort. Now look at your tatty "hydrometers" with a bit more awe!!!

I've found an early screenshot with the weight of my bottle on, "18.28g". So I can configure a spreadsheet with that. Later! For now I just do it manually: SG (specific gravity ... all this mucking about means I haven't organised "density" in "g/ml" but SG is very close) 1.627. No temperature correction? S.G. is your temperature correction! "Specific" remember. Now look at your tatty "hydrometers" with a bit more confusion!!!

Going back to the tables @day_trippr linked ... 80% Phosphoric Acid would have a density of 1.633g/ml (81% approx 1.644g/ml) so it's a tiny sniff (1.5%) under the expected concentration. Good! I get suspicious if its bang on!

 

[Peebee]

Just ordered my pycnometer from Amazon. Is it something I "need"? No. But I like gadgets and am curious to see how measurements stack up against my hydrometers.

Did you not read that other thread I wrote before buying the pyknometer? You don't need them, but you learn a lot about density, "specific gravity" and "temperature compensation" by having one. And you learn all the "stories" piled on us by "hydrometers". What you will need, is some reliable weighing scales capable of weighing hundredths of a gram: Those postage stamp sized "drug dealer" scales are worse than useless, but the craze for "vapour" smokes means there's some fairly good (and adequate) midi-sized electronic scales about (for around $50-100?)..

You'll soon come to realise that "hydrometers" are a compromise for measuring "SG", and you'll be seeing how your "hydrometers" stack up against the "pyknometer", and not the other way around!

But ... you've ordered a 100ml bottle. You might get away with 1DP (of a gram) scales with one of them!


[EDIT: Corrected spelling of "pyknometer". Microsoft and their spelling checker always try to correct "k" to "c". A plague on them! It's "hard-c" or "k" to avoid confusion ... rant, rant, rant! You would understand if you were also Welsh. Or German, they know how to pronounce "Ceasar" ("Kaisar"!). You might not understand now ... but as you get older you will; and find your own things to moan about!]

 

[MaxStout]

I did read your thread. It was the impetus for me getting one. I've learned something new and you've been very helpful, thanks. I have a digital scale with 2DP grams resolution, so measurements should be reasonably accurate

The "k" vs "c" spelling is just another UK vs US quirk. Like colour vs color, maths vs math, etc. We've kind of ruined the King's English over here.

I've visited Wales, several years ago. My wife has ancestry from there, a tiny village near Tywyn. We enjoyed the trip.

 

[Peebee]

The results from the small spreadsheet I created last year. It's available attached to this post so you don't need to search for it. An Excel creation, but should work in the "free" applications (the radio button may not work and beware of Google "Sheets" as I do not know how to make it support "cell protection" to prevent accidental overwriting of calculated values. The only cells that should be edited have a gold backgound.

Editable fields on this page include "temperature". I know I said a pyknometer doesn't require temperature, but including the option and having lookup tables in the spreadsheet is a whole lot easier than doing it "properly" (i.e. without a temperature!).

There's a "Calibration" sheet in the spreadsheet that will want the dry bottle weight, the full (with plain water) bottle weight and the water temperature. You only need to fill these in once per bottle. The "Manual Use" page/sheet has a selectable cell called "parking" to select before screen grabs (simply to clean-up the screen grab image!). You may select the "g/ml" option, but it's for you to ensure the sample temperature is the 20°C SI temperature (you can determine the density of mercury with a pyknometer ... but I don't recommend you do).

Have fun with it. And follow @DuncB's advice: "Keep banging the drum"

 

[MaxStout]

Just downloaded the spreadsheet, @Peebee. Thanks!

Funny, I just made my own spreadsheet the other day. Great minds think alike.

 

[Peebee]

I appreciate you sharing all this @Peebee. I'm going to get one, and if nothing else, I have another way to check my calculations throughout the process and diagnose false assumptions before they get out of hand. My biggest brewing mistakes are assuming things are what they aren't.

Here are some of my brewing assumption fails - two of these could have been prevented if I had a p-meter on hand and used it.

• Phosphoric 10% is really 10%? Nope. Should have measured strike water pH before mashing to stop it. I wrecked three beers.
• Hydrometer reads correct? Nope. Hairline crack in it made it take on a little bit of sanitizer and it didn't read correct. No clue on finishing gravity for one beer.
• Thermometer reads correct? Nope, and I mistakenly mashed about thirty 5 gallon batches 5-6 C higher than I intended and I couldn't figure out why my beers didn't finish.

Two-out-of-three for the "p-meter" ("pyknometer" ... with a "k" ). Not bad? I use a well thought of "meat-thermometer" for reliable temperature (American-made, "Lavatools Javalin Pro"), But how do I ensure that is still good?

...

Hang-on! (Eee, I do love it when I can get something back for all my babbling on forums!) ... The solution to the third requirement has been staring me in the face: The Pyknometer will do it! Okay, it's not the pyknometer, it's the weighing scales you will be putting "all-your-eggs-into-one-basket" with; I hope you've got some good ones! But at least you can easily check them (and recalibrate them I hope); i.e. "Calibration weights".

Give me a moment to set up a demonstration ...

 

[Peebee]

Pyknometer filled (with distilled water 'cos I'm feeling farty ... any clean fresh water should do). Weighed, 44.63g, and that put into my spreadsheet:

Manually alter the sample temperature until the SG displays "1.0000". And there you have your sample's temperature!

The lookup tables were the best examples I could find: Filched from >www.simetric.co.uk< (6 DP, the spreadsheet only displays four, but the calculations use all six). And I say those weighing scales I use are good, but they do flick about plus/minus 0.01g so I can't declare this as the "definitive" way of testing a thermometer. But I dipped the "Lavatools Javalin Pro" in the bottle and it said "15.0°C": That's close enough for me!

Yes, the SG of water really is exactly one. The actual (looked up!) gravity (density) of water at 14.9°C is displayed just below the "sample temperature". But "SG" is "relative density" ... relative to water ... and so the water in this sample relative to itself, which is always exactly one!

So, three-out-of-three! Pyknometers are just !

Right, time to declare anything about me that some might consider conflicting with my attempt to push this information. The first being I don't make any money out of it! ...

I appreciate you sharing all this @Peebee. ...

... and why do I spend all this time on it? Lots of three-letter-acronyms so go look 'em up (Google?) if you must:

TBI(severe) "awarded" in September 2012. UK Government classify me as "SMI" for purpose of local taxation (careful, not US definition of "SMI"!). A chief interest is horses which was the subject of my 2012 "award", and I still hold that interest, though the local RDA provide most opportunities for me. That, I assure you, all adds up to a lot of free time!

(That declaration was a "Public Information Announcement". I'm not what you might now think I am. A lot of people might find the personal revelations surprising. Any suggestion I'm not fit to provide the technical info above, and I set the long established forumite (on this forum) - @Broken Crow - on you!).

 

[Broken Crow]

Pyknometer filled (with distilled water 'cos I'm feeling farty ... any clean fresh water should do). Weighed, 44.63g, and that put into my spreadsheet:
View attachment 868013

Manually alter the sample temperature until the SG displays "1.0000". And there you have your sample's temperature!

The lookup tables were the best examples I could find: Filched from >www.simetric.co.uk< (6 DP, the spreadsheet only displays four, but the calculations use all six). And I say those weighing scales I use are good, but they do flick about plus/minus 0.01g so I can't declare this as the "definitive" way of testing a thermometer. But I dipped the "Lavatools Javalin Pro" in the bottle and it said "15.0°C": That's close enough for me!

Yes, the SG of water really is exactly one. The actual (looked up!) gravity (density) of water at 14.9°C is displayed just below the "sample temperature". But "SG" is "relative density" ... relative to water ... and so the water in this sample relative to itself, which is always exactly one!

So, three-out-of-three! Pyknometers are just !

Right, time to declare anything about me that some might consider conflicting with my attempt to push this information. The first being I don't make any money out of it! ...


... and why do I spend all this time on it? Lots of three-letter-acronyms so go look 'em up (Google?) if you must:

TBI(severe) "awarded" in September 2012. UK Government classify me as "SMI" for purpose of local taxation (careful, not US definition of "SMI"!). A chief interest is horses which was the subject of my 2012 "award", and I still hold that interest, though the local RDA provide most opportunities for me. That, I assure you, all adds up to a lot of free time!

(That declaration was a "Public Information Announcement". I'm not what you might now think I am. A lot of people might find the personal revelations surprising. Any suggestion I'm not fit to provide the technical info above, and I set the long established forumite (on this forum) - @Broken Crow - on you!).

I'll have to re-read this a number of times for a few days as one of my lost areas is my angular gyrus hence;" numbers?"
But hey: Thanks for the in-depth accounting that will help me re-learn water-chemistry (and even if i can't retain it it without a ton of repetition, I can at least copy and past or bookmark it till I (re)grow some axons) Thanks!

 

[Ratdog]

@Peebee - Wow, I was not expecting when I posted the original message that I would learn how to proof a thermometer's readings with a scale and a device I never heard of.

I'm sorry to hear about your accident, but glad that you are making the most of things and are undeterred and passionate! You have given me analytical tools to better understand and improve my homebrewing and I am most appreciative! Thank you!

Also, I was able to connect with LD over the phone. They expressed their sincere apologies and emphasized how important it is to get their products right. They sent me two replacement bottles of 10% phosphoric acid and replaced the grains/hops lost as a result of me using the overconcentrated bottles that I originally received from my LHBS.

 

[Peebee]

The "k" vs "c" spelling is just another UK vs US quirk.

Not in this case! More like "Wales vs Most of the rest of the world"! Welsh has no "soft-"C"s, which makes the popular Welsh word "cwtch" a bit of a conundrum (Welsh doesn't have a "k" either ... not originally, but one has snook in). Soft-"C"s have something to do with European "Ecclesiastical Latin"? There're no double letters (like "ch", or "tch" even) in Welsh either, some obsolete letters are spelt double (e.g. "dd") but are considered single letters.

Welsh is almost phonetic. But that town you mentioned "Tywyn" (it's not that far from me!) is a good example of it breaking down: The first "y" is pronounced "ugh", the second "ei".

But you're right about the English spellings having all these superfluous "u"s (colour, etc.). But the English need them to prove what snobs they are.


Err ... was that "off-subject"?

 

[Broken Crow]

Not in this case! More like "Wales vs Most of the rest of the world"! Welsh has no "soft-"C"s, which makes the popular Welsh word "cwtch" a bit of a conundrum (Welsh doesn't have a "k" either ... not originally, but one has snook in). Soft-"C"s have something to do with European "Ecclesiastical Latin"? There're no double letters (like "ch", or "tch" even) in Welsh either, some obsolete letters are spelt double (e.g. "dd") but are considered single letters.

Welsh is almost phonetic. But that town you mentioned "Tywyn" (it's not that far from me!) is a good example of it breaking down: The first "y" is pronounced "ugh", the second "ei".

But you're right about the English spellings having all these superfluous "u"s (colour, etc.). But the English need them to prove what snobs they are.


Err ... was that "off-subject"?

Yup... You're going to gaol.

 

[Peebee]

Also, I was able to connect with LD over the phone. They expressed their sincere apologies and emphasized how important it is to get their products right. They sent me two replacement bottles of 10% phosphoric acid and replaced the grains/hops lost as a result of me using the overconcentrated bottles that I originally received from my LHBS.

Wow!

 

[MaxStout]

Not in this case! More like "Wales vs Most of the rest of the world"! Welsh has no "soft-"C"s, which makes the popular Welsh word "cwtch" a bit of a conundrum (Welsh doesn't have a "k" either ... not originally, but one has snook in). Soft-"C"s have something to do with European "Ecclesiastical Latin"? There're no double letters (like "ch", or "tch" even) in Welsh either, some obsolete letters are spelt double (e.g. "dd") but are considered single letters.

Welsh is almost phonetic. But that town you mentioned "Tywyn" (it's not that far from me!) is a good example of it breaking down: The first "y" is pronounced "ugh", the second "ei".

But you're right about the English spellings having all these superfluous "u"s (colour, etc.). But the English need them to prove what snobs they are.


Err ... was that "off-subject"?

My wife speaks a tiny bit of Welsh, a few phrases, really. I have to stand back so I don't get spittle on me.

 

[Peebee]

Wow, I was not expecting when I posted the original message that I would learn how to proof a thermometer's readings ...

Neither was I when I responded to your post!

I think you've got to be careful using a 25ml pyknometer as a thermometer: I'm possibly pushing the limits of its precision? But if you've got a 100ml bottle or even more precise weighing scales (or both!), it must surely be do-able.

 

[Peebee]

My wife speaks a tiny bit of Welsh, a few phrases, really. I have to stand back so I don't get spittle on me.

Really that's the same with me. I think during the 50s, 60s... 70s or 80s even, Welsh (Cymraeg) was considered "dead". So, my mother never "encumbered" me with it. Quite different now! But I will never have a chance to learn it, though I am of that cantankerous age where I can use it to moan for hours about it!

So, I do!

 

[MaxStout]

We visited Wales in 2006, and the locals said the schools were teaching it again. That's good, as it would be a shame for the language to die off.

 

[Peebee]

I think you've got to be careful using a 25ml pyknometer as a thermometer: I'm possibly pushing the limits of its precision? But if you've got a 100ml bottle or even more precise weighing scales (or both!), it must surely be do-able.

Ah! I can see now why I felt like I was "pushing the limit" (like balancing on a ball). (I always get my best thinking just before I get out of bed and start muddying my head with things like "what's for breakfast"). Pulling off this "using a Pyknometer as a thermometer" trick is basically putting the original bottle's "calibration" into reverse.

Because my spreadsheet was configured with the same thermometer and weighing scales, I was actually testing the thermometer (and weighing scales) with an earlier version of itself. Still, less than 0.1°C out after all these years, well within the manufacturer's error tolerances for the thermometer (and weighing scales), is comforting to know.

@Ratdog: Sorry! The thermometer trick is only valid if you were confident the original equipment used to "calibrate" the bottle was accurate. I might have to change my aversion of buying hellish expensive "calibrated" bottles now?

 

[An Ankoù]

This is all you need. It's particular virtue is that it's so approximate you don't need to correct for temperature.LOL

 

[Peebee]

This is all you need. ...

Ah. But this subject has wandered a bit off subject (you know ... like all other threads I get involved with!). Can that hydrometer tell the temperature? And in-line with the original question: That hydrometer won't tell you your Phosphoric acid is 85% (but I suppose it will tell you it isn't 10%-25%).

Plastic. I could be trusted with one of them hydrometers (but I might start chewing it).

Anyway, I beat you to it ... and raised the mark:

... The very best solution (but escapes me now-a-days) is a combination of: Experience and Confidence; i.e. no measuring tools at-all ...

Good to hear from you after so long! But you won't be hearing me on THBF no more (Chippy got peeved with me ... to put it mildly!). Ah well, I'm already feeling better off here.

 

[An Ankoù]

Ah. But this subject has wandered a bit off subject (you know ... like all other threads I get involved with!). Can that hydrometer tell the temperature? And in-line with the original question: That hydrometer won't tell you your Phosphoric acid is 85% (but I suppose it will tell you it isn't 10%-25%).

Plastic. I could be trusted with one of them hydrometers (but I might start chewing it).

Anyway, I beat you to it ... and raised the mark:



Good to hear from you after so long! But you won't be hearing me on THBF no more (Chippy got peeved with me ... to put it mildly!). Ah well, I'm already feeling better off here.

Haha. Me too. Very thin skinned. Is there anyone left with any experience over there?

"Experience and confidence" ? What kind of nonsense is that? Call yourself a brewer? The very least you could do is cast the runes and interpret the density by divination.

(Bloody amateurs)!

 

[Peebee]

... "Experience and confidence" ? What kind of nonsense is that? Call yourself a brewer? The very least you could do is cast the runes and interpret the density by divination.

Sorry. You're right, I'm really not putting the effort in. So, I've put a new brew on, and slaughtered my next-door neighbour's goat ... but I really am at a loss of what to do next.

So, I've packed up the entrails and sent them around to you. I'd appreciate if you could give me some pointers of how to read them. Should be with you in a week.

 

[An Ankoù]

Sorry. You're right, I'm really not putting the effort in. So, I've put a new brew on, and slaughtered my next-door neighbour's goat ... but I really am at a loss of what to do next.

So, I've packed up the entrails and sent them around to you. I'd appreciate if you could give me some pointers of how to read them. Should be with you in a week.

Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to receiving them. In the meantime, you should burn the carcass on your local altar (we use the municpal berbecue, here) so that a pleasing odour rises up unto the denizens of Asgaard and they bestow their blessings upon you and your beer and then make the blood into black puddings.

 

[Peebee]

@Ratdog: Okay, we're wandering off your thread's topic a little bit. But not that much! Want to see some more "black magic" more directly related to your topic: Density: Helium Pycnometry

And continuing where I left off: I do get a bit over-excited with my "Maths ability", and the "pyknometer as a thermometer" isn't the first time I've ended up developing a "chicken or egg" situation. But you can break that loop in this case by splashing out on a "calibrated" pyknometer.

Pycnometer, Calibrated, 25mL ... Perhaps not one of them; they look really expensive! But you'd then be testing your thermometer against their lab-grade equipment ("calibrated" might only get you a certified volume, at the SI temperature of 20°C), though you can use this on the "Calibration" page of my spreadsheet (along with your own measurement of total weight)** .

** Yes, you'd still be relying on the accuracy (and consistency, or repeatability) of your own 2DP (min) weighing scales. Make sure you can calibrate them, or else can get the very occasional precise weighing done by someone else). "Calibration" will get you "volume" but probably not weight of pure water it contains: You may need this: 0.998203g/ml, the density of water at 20°C per millilitre (cm³), multiple your volume by that!

Silly minuscule numbers, but I've already explained the reason for that. This extra precision is only to check thermometers ... not for using pyknometers normally (though might gain a "knowing smile" by applying it for everyday pyknometer usage).

 

[MaxStout]

We can always stick with tried-and-true historical methods for weights and measures.

 

[mac_1103]

We can always stick with tried-and-true historical methods for weights and measures.

But how many home brewers have access to Sir Bedevere's largest scales?