pH 5.2 stabilizer: how did you conclude it doesn't work?

[ocwo92]

I've seen a few threads (notably, the sticky one on all grain) mentioning that the pH 5.2 stabilizer doesn't work. Several people seem to agree.

How did you/they reach that conclusion?

(The easy answer might be that they added the proper amount of stabilizer to the mash water and then measured the pH value. However, the stabilizer is supposed to react with the malt, so measuring the pH value of water with the stabilizer wouldn't work.)

 

[Callacave]

It's not so much about the pH, but the minerals that this junk contributes. It can be hit or miss for people depending on many factors.

Lack of control over what you add to your beer can make or break your brew.

Get some Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, Phosphoric Acid, Ward Labs water report, use Bru'n Water, and know what you're putting in your water.

 

[Yooper]

I used it- I actually bought two jars, thinking it was the "magic bullet". I used it about three times, and the beer not only never reached a mash pH under 5.6, the final beer tasted worse than the ones without it.

That was years before I read about what it was, and why it couldn't possibly work. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=536628&highlight=stabilizer https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=411452

I gave one jar away to someone on the forum who wanted to try it, and the other opened jar was thrown away. AJ deLange told me it may work to acidity my sparge water, but I don't think I ever did that and just used lactic or phosphoric acid which is easier.

 

[thaymond]

I have never used it, but have read on several of these threads that is is a waste of money. Callacave and Yooper are right on here. Use a water report, food grade acid, bru'n water, and various salts and you can really pinpoint your water profile. It will help with flavor, mouthfeel, and efficiency. I use to use straight RO, but since gave that up after I received my city water report. It's nearly perfect for APA and IPAs, and I just need to add small additions of salts to get to my desired profile. I just use a crushed camden tab per 5 gallons and let it sit overnight to help dissapate the chloramines in the water. This saved me some $$$ in the end.

There is a slight learning curve to learning Bru'n water, but it's nothing a little time on YouTube can't fix.

 

[mabrungard]

You are correct that adding the stabilizer to water and testing that result does not work. However, adding that stabilized water to malt was used to determine that the product does not work as advertised. It buffers wort closer to a room temperature pH of around 5.8. That is not good enough for producing great beer. The room temp pH really does need to be 3 or 4 tenths lower than that for most brewing. The other drawback with the product is that it adds a lot of sodium to the wort.

Another drawback to those with high alkalinity tap water, is that the product does not reduce alkalinity and it does not provide the brewer with low alkalinity sparging water. That leads to a higher potential of tannin and silicate leaching from the grain bed.

I really like 5-Star's other products, but this is one that should be removed from store shelves. It appears to be a fraud.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Completely agree Martin, I hate seeing it on store shelves.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I believe it's ajdelange that says something like...

5.2 works really well for those who don't own a ph meter, doesn't work at all for those that do.

 

[JGF]

I understand - at least a little - how chemistry works thus I know that 5.2 stabilizer really can't match its claims.

 

[beersk]

I tried the pH stabilizer stuff when I started all grain as well. All my beers tasted salty and nasty with it. I threw it out.

There's that new Accumash stuff that's out too. Makes me think it's a stabilizer wannabe. How is it any different? Other than having different packs for different styles?

 

[JonM]

Accumash says it's guaranteed to land your mash pH somewhere between 5.2 and 5.7. That's like saying "We promise to get your mash temperature somewhere between 147 and 162!"

No thanks.

 

[eadavis80]

I use it on my BIAB batches and since I have been using it, my beers have improved with efficiency. Not sure if it's due to the stabilizer or just better brewing practices, but I'm getting higher OG than I was before I used it, so for what it costs (under $2) I'll continue to use it.

 

[JGF]

There's that new Accumash stuff that's out too. Makes me think it's a stabilizer wannabe. How is it any different? Other than having different packs for different styles?

Accumash is different. It's meant to be the salt/mineral additions to RO or DI water to match particular water profiles. It'll get to the right pH if your grain profile is correct as well.

I've never used it as we add our own salts and minerals but I think it should work just fine.

 

[beersk]

Accumash is different. It's meant to be the salt/mineral additions to RO or DI water to match particular water profiles. It'll get to the right pH if your grain profile is correct as well.

I've never used it as we add our own salts and minerals but I think it should work just fine.

True, I mean it does seem better than the stabilizer crap, but I'm still skeptical. It's easy enough to follow AJ deLange's water chemistry thing here with calcium chloride and gypsum if you're a beginner. I have a friend who still does that after a few years of doing all grain. Makes pretty good beer. I taught him that way and that's what he's stuck with. I measure all my salts out per Bru'n water though. Nothing wrong with simplicity, just think the Accumash stuff is exploiting people who don't know any better...hey wait, that's almost all business, right?

 

[JonM]

Accumash is $2 per single-use envelope. You can get big bottles of CaCl, gypsum, Epsom salts, and appropriate acid for about $2 each.

 

[ajdelange]

I've seen a few threads (notably, the sticky one on all grain) mentioning that the pH 5.2 stabilizer doesn't work. Several people seem to agree.

How did you/they reach that conclusion?

I started by buying a jar and adding it to distilled water. The pH of the mix was close to 6. Given that the label says that it is a mixture of phosphate buffers I assumed that it was a mixture of monobasic and dibasic sodium ortho phosphate in proportion necessary to buffer at pH 6 (mostly monobasic). I then looked at the phosphate titration curve (below). The buffering capacity of a salt mixture is proportional to the slope of the curve. Thus a phosphate buffer shows the best buffering near it's pK's (at the ends of the horizontal axix where the slopes are steepest) and its worst half way in between which is right where 5.2 falls. This is true of any buffer. Thus phosphate is a poor choice for an acid system to use for buffering mash. As the curve shows if you wish to reach pH 5.2 you would have to add 0.05 mEq protons to each mmol of this product to effect the shift. The protons needed are those that raise the charge of the phosphate system from -1.058 at pH 6 to -1.008 at pH 5.2. That's not much because, as we have noted, the buffering capacity of the phosphate system is small but the fact remains that the product is actually somewhat alkaline WRT pH 5.2. In most cases we need something acidic i.e. something that can supply protons in transitioning from its intrinsic state to mash pH. The chart clearly implies that this is phosphoric acid which has a charge of 0. In transitioning from the acid bottle to pH 5.2 one mmol of phosphoric acid releases 1.01 mEq of protons. Thus I tell people that if they want to shift pH with phosphate to use phosphoric acid. Not the monobasic sodium salt. For the same PO4 addition you get much more pH shifting punch and no added sodium.

(The easy answer might be that they added the proper amount of stabilizer to the mash water and then measured the pH value. However, the stabilizer is supposed to react with the malt, so measuring the pH value of water with the stabilizer wouldn't work.)

The analysis requires the use of the distilled water test to determine the composition (ratio of monobasic to dibasic orthophosphate) in the mix. This tells us that it is alkaline at mash pH. The precipitation of apatite from the added phosphate is not considered in this. Indeed some precipitation may occur and some protons may be released but while it is true that the phosphate system has no buffering (resistance to pH chance as protons are added or absorbed) it is not true that the mash is devoid of buffering capacity. It may in fact be substantial and so the addition of the additional phoshphate will have a small, if any, effect. It takes hundreds of mg Ca++/L to lead to this effect near mash pH.

To be really certain I did test mashes with and without the product and found nothing that even remotely approached "locking in mas pH at 5.2".

Finally, i went out and had dinner and beers with the guy that invented and makes the product. He indicated that he would not recommend it to most home brewers and indicated that he had formulated it for a particular craft brewery that was having trouble with low mash pH. Given its alkaline nature I have no problem believing that it will increase mash pH if the untreated mash pH is below 5.2.

 

[ajdelange]

I gave one jar away to someone on the forum who wanted to try it, and the other opened jar was thrown away.

Ah, too bad. I did finally think of a use for it: as fertilizer for plants that need phosphate and enjoy slightly acidic soil.

 

[ajdelange]

There's that new Accumash stuff that's out too. Makes me think it's a stabilizer wannabe.

That's the obvious interpretation given the initial ad's description of it but when I posted in response to a question as to how it could work for a different manufacturer given that all are subject to the same laws of chemistry the maker complained that I was being unfair and as I don't want to be that I asked for further details. I finally figured out that he is using pyro-phosphates instead or ortho phopsphates and told him that if he could confirm that I could remove at least some of my criticisms. He said that I'd have to sign an NDA. In the first place I'm beyond the point in my life where I sign NDAs and in the second if I did I couldn't pass what I learned on to you guys so all I can say to...

How is it any different?

is that I think it uses pyrophosphates. I haven't researched them fully but some preliminary calculations showed that some measure of buffering at 5.2 should be possible with them.

Other than having different packs for different styles?

5.2 contains only the phosphates for pH control. Accumash purports to contain other salts for stylistic purposes.

 

[Yooper]

Ah, too bad. I did finally think of a use for it: as fertilizer for plants that need phosphate and enjoy slightly acidic soil.

Ah, darn it. My blueberry bushes lost out.

 

[beersk]

That's the obvious interpretation given the initial ad's description of it but when I posted in response to a question as to how it could work for a different manufacturer given that all are subject to the same laws of chemistry the maker complained that I was being unfair and as I don't want to be that I asked for further details. I finally figured out that he is using pyro-phosphates instead or ortho phopsphates and told him that if he could confirm that I could remove at least some of my criticisms. He said that I'd have to sign an NDA. In the first place I'm beyond the point in my life where I sign NDAs and in the second if I did I couldn't pass what I learned on to you guys so all I can say to...

is that I think it uses pyrophosphates. I haven't researched them fully but some preliminary calculations showed that some measure of buffering at 5.2 should be possible with them.




5.2 contains only the phosphates for pH control. Accumash purports to contain other salts for stylistic purposes.

Interesting. Thanks for responding AJ. I still think your water guidelines are much easier (and cheaper) to follow. No need for this rubbish.

 

[Denny]

I've seen a few threads (notably, the sticky one on all grain) mentioning that the pH 5.2 stabilizer doesn't work. Several people seem to agree.

How did you/they reach that conclusion?

(The easy answer might be that they added the proper amount of stabilizer to the mash water and then measured the pH value. However, the stabilizer is supposed to react with the malt, so measuring the pH value of water with the stabilizer wouldn't work.)

By repeated use. never once did it do what it claimed to and it gave my beers a strange off flavor.