pH 5.2 Stabilizer. Experience?

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homebrewdr

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I ordered some of this 5.2 pH Stabilizer earlier tonight. Then I looked it up on the forum, with multiple threads of bashing it.

I have only 4 all grain batches under my belt so far, and my efficiency has been lacking only in the slightest (like 65-66% when I shoot for 70-80 with big beers).

Although I understand water chemistry, I have not yet made that leap.
My undergrad degree is in Biochem, so I have a fair enough background on buffers. I feel people are mistaking the fact that this is a buffer and not something that will make your pH more acidic.

Since I'm posting this in the science thread, does anyone have experience with this? Is their marketing inaccurate? Have you had luck with efficiency?

Any and all advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
I have never had it work. After 2 batches and mash PH coming in high I got a Ward Labs report and never looked back.
 
I think you are on the right track... it is a combination of buffer agents and salts. However, it is sold to homebrewers as a tool to lock in their mash pH at 5.2 - which is where a lot of the backlash sits. The marketing is misleading and the creator has admitted to a very narrow application - yet they continue to push this as a one-size-fits-all product. That said - their other products are really good - Star San, Sani Clean, etc.

While my tap water is heavy in alkalinity and sodium, using the 5.2 exacerbated problems in the mash for me. When I finally started measuring mash pH, the product never brought my mash pH anywhere near 5.2-5.6 and contributed a very excessively salty and sour flavor to my beers.
 
I used it once a long time ago before getting my water tested and had an extremely astringent acrid beer as the result. Worst beer I ever brewed. It did not perform as I was told it would.
 
I used it once a long time ago before getting my water tested and had an extremely astringent acrid beer as the result. Worst beer I ever brewed. It did not perform as I was told it would.

I plan to use it today and I have heard good things about the product. It's not exact as I have read, but it gets you closer. I tested my water and had a very high PH. I added the 5.2 stabilizer and it did bring it down to 5.2.. so make your own assessment, but I'll error on the side of adding it today and let the beer fall where it falls. In the end, I know I'm going to have a good beer and that's what I'm after.

Is it exact? No... Can it hurt? No... will it help? Likely...
 
Where have you heard good things? Certainly not from anyone on this forum :)

It can hurt actually. It was designed to work under a very narrow set of circumstances. If your situation isn't exactly that, it will make things worse. If you're convinced your circumstances are such that it will help, go for it, but don't assume that throwing a bunch of salt into a mash willy nilly can't have a negative affect.
 
As one of the few people that have had 5.2 work for me (verfying my mash with a pH meter), but only with a very specific grist, my recommendation is to not use it.

You're better off using EZ Water or Bru'N water spreadsheets, as even without a pH meter, the spreadsheets will get you much closer to an appropriate mash pH AND ideal water profile for your beer style than 5.2 ever would.

I wish they'd quit selling the stuff....as their other products are pretty darn good.

Let me ask you this, would you use a product called "45 IBU - one tablespoon in the kettle will lock your beer IBUs in at 45 - everytime!"? 5.2 is the same premise...
 
I ordered some of this 5.2 pH Stabilizer earlier tonight. Then I looked it up on the forum, with multiple threads of bashing it.

I'll start by saying that my experience with it includes testing, analysis and going out to dinner with the guy who invented it and sells it. All of these confirm that it does not do what it purports to do.


Although I understand water chemistry, I have not yet made that leap.
My undergrad degree is in Biochem, so I have a fair enough background on buffers. I feel people are mistaking the fact that this is a buffer and not something that will make your pH more acidic.

If you add a buffer with buffering capacity at a pH lower than the pH of whatever you are adding it to it will try to buffer to its lower pH and thus acidify. For example, this product is a mix of mono and dibasic sodium phosphate salts. For example, if it were set to buffer at pH 5.2, as you might reasonably expect, it would tend to pull the pH of a mash it were added to towards pH 5.2. Monobasic sodium phosphate is acidic with respect to pH 5.7, the typical DI pH of a pale base malt.

But this product isn't set to buffer at pH 5.2 (at least not the sample I tested). It buffers to around 5.9 in DI water. How can that pull the mash pH down to 5.2 from 5.7? We do note that mash contains lots of phosphate and I thought at one time that perhaps this was supposed to increase the ratio of monobasic to dibasic thus lowering buffered pH in the mash but does it make sense that adding something that buffers at 5.9 to something buffered at 5.7 is going to produce a mixture that buffers at 5.2?

You may recall from your studies in that preparing a buffer from a mix of the salts of an acid system that the buffering capacity lowers fast as one's design point moves more than 1 pH unit away from one of the pH's of the system. Phosphoric acid's relevant pK's are 2.12 and 7.21. Neither 5.2 nor 5.9 is within 1 pH unit of either of these and thus we conclude that a phosphate buffer designed for such a pH is not well designed.

Since I'm posting this in the science thread, does anyone have experience with this? Is their marketing inaccurate? Have you had luck with efficiency?

I should point out that from the actual pH of the buffer and knowledge that the salts are (as stated on the MSDS) phosphates it is possible to compute the molar ratio and I did that. Having verified that there is little potassium in the product it then seems clear that it is the sodium salts that are being used and thus it is possible to compute the amount of sodium which would be in a solution of a given strength. Sodium measurement on such a solution was consistent with the prediction as a consequence of which we think we understand pretty well what is in it. Based on that it would not be expected that it could work and experiments with laboratory test mashes confirm that it does not. Add to this the fact that the creator of the product says that he would not advise home brewers to use it and it seems that one ought to spend his money elsewhere.

There are still lots of people who swear by it, however, which has led us to say that it works well for people who do not own pH meters but doesn't work at all for those who do.
 
Well you have a degree in biochem, so do you know your water profile?

Working on it. The public data is a little out of date (2013), and I have not yet invested in pH measuring equipment. I know I had saw the data months ago, but blew if off because I wasn't focused on water chemistry at the time. I can't say for sure, but I believe the pH was a point or 2 on the high side.

There are still lots of people who swear by it, however, which has led us to say that it works well for people who do not own pH meters but doesn't work at all for those who do.

You make really good points. In the future, I see myself with an arsenal of water adjustment chemicals for a variety of purposes. Perhaps the 5.2 will find its proper place on the shelf for when the situation calls during the mash.

On your point about the buffering capacity of 5.9, are you aware that DI water itself has a pH range of 5.6-7? So if you were to add a buffering solution to that, it definitely wouldn't "buffer" at 5.2. Although buffers sometimes "pull" the pH, it is not what they are really designed for. They are designed for stability. Is that right? Also, with the pK values... Have you taken into account the molarity of each component? Once I have the container in my hand, I can look into the amounts of each to see the numbers add up. I definitely plan on running some experiments haha. This is kind of interesting.

Overall I think it's blanket marketing technique may be misleading, which is why so many dislike the product. Hypothetically if I were to get my pH down to it's buffering range, it should be able to keep the pH constant during the mash, maybe. I'll see if it really works. Maybe some acidulated malt or lactic acid? I've got plenty of lactic acid on hand (self made).

I think my next purchase will be pH measuring equipment. Ferrsure.
 
You make really good points. In the future, I see myself with an arsenal of water adjustment chemicals for a variety of purposes. Perhaps the 5.2 will find its proper place on the shelf for when the situation calls during the mash.

I think that once you read up on brewing chemistry you will find the 5.2 will not find its place on the shelf. Read AJ's thread on water chemistry made simple. I have softish water and have a ph meter, calibration solutions, CaCl, CaSO4, and lactic acid on my shelf. No 5.2 to be seen. You don't need a chemistry degree to get your pH and flavour ions in the right spot to make better beer.
 
You make really good points. In the future, I see myself with an arsenal of water adjustment chemicals for a variety of purposes. Perhaps the 5.2 will find its proper place on the shelf for when the situation calls during the mash.
It does belong on the shelf - the store shelf. Not yours. It is mostly monobasic sodium phoshphate. You can easily calculate the effect of that salt on a typical mash. I happen to have one with 84% Maris Otter, 5.3% each 20L crystal, 120L crystal and roast barley - total mash 14.25 pounds (left over from a question from another guy). Predicted mash pH is 5.53. Lets say we wanted to get that to 5.4. We'd could not ever get there with the 5.2 product so lets say we just decide to use monobasic sodlum phosphate on the basis that this is what 5.2 mostly is. It would take 3.1 moles of that adding 70 grams of sodium to the mash. If we say to ourselves that this is madness but we still like the idea of phosphate we might think of phosphoric acid. We'd only need 45 mmol of that (about 45 mL of 10% solution). No sodium. That makes a lot more sense to me!


Overall I think it's "blanket marketing technique" may be misleading, which is why so many dislike the product.
It simply does not work i.e there is no case where it does. Theory and practice both confirm this. Some claim to have been told that it is designed to keep pH from going too low in super acidic mashes (and the guy sort of hinted to me that he designed it for that purpose for a particular craft brewery) and that it should do. The mononbasic salt is basic WRT any pH below 4.67 and the dibasic WRT any pH below 9.8.

Hypothetically if I were to get my pH down to it's buffering range, it should be able to keep the pH constant during the mash, right?

The titration curve for a mash is pretty smooth - it doesn't look anything like the titration curve of a prepared buffer. Just as a rough number a mash has a buffering capacity of about -50 mEq/kg-pH where kg is the number of kg of malt involved. It can vary with thickness, alkalinity of the liquor etc and it isn't constant with pH but there are no 'inflection points'.


Maybe some acidulated malt or lactic acid? I've got plenty of lactic acid on hand (self made).
Either can be good. Some prefer phosphoric. How did you make your lactic?

I think my next purchase will be pH measuring equipment. Ferrsure.

Wouldn't brew without a thermometer or hydrometer would you? Shouldn't brew without a pH meter either.
 
I too purchased pH 5.2 buffer thinking it must be of use. After doing a little homework and reading about it more and particularly exploring the water chemistry section on this forum the product did indeed find its rightful place. The bin.

Got myself a ward labs report. Used bru'n water for the first time today making additions to the water as recommended. My mash efficiency was up to 90%. I know this is only 1 data point but one that I put some thought and effort into. pH meter is the next item to be added to my arsenal. Still undecided on which one to get.

I think ph 5.2 is the snake oil of water chemistry by all accounts.
 
I think that once you read up on brewing chemistry you will find the 5.2 will not find its place on the shelf. Read AJ's thread on water chemistry made simple. I have softish water and have a ph meter, calibration solutions, CaCl, CaSO4, and lactic acid on my shelf. No 5.2 to be seen. You don't need a chemistry degree to get your pH and flavour ions in the right spot to make better beer.

I have read a ton on water chemistry. I realize it is not complicated. Takes an adjustment goal, a calculator, and a scale.

I'll be running experiments on the ability of the phosphate buffering solution (aka 5.2 stabilizer) to maintain an intended/pre-adjusted pH over the course of a mash. The field of pH stability, although affecting ionic content, is almost different ball game than just adjusting for ionic content. I'll have to see for myself if the buffering product does what a buffering product should do (not to be confused with what the marketing team says it should do).

Within the next couple of months I'll decide for myself objectively. I'm obviously just bitter about wasting my $12.99, so I'll have to do something...lol

and I made the lactic acid.. maybe you could just call it acidic lacto solution...by letting some pre-boil wort eat itself. Once I have the pH meter I'll be able to see how acidic it truly is.
 
I have not delved too far into the realm of water chemistry but I do have a pH meter and found that my mash pH was on the high side. Since then I have been using acidulated malt and have really liked the results. It's about as easy to use as it gets. Just sub it in for a portion of my base grain up to 5% of the grist.

On super pale beers I sometimes add a little lactic acid to my sparge water.
 
just wondering - and I'm not critiquing here... but water out of my tap is PH 8.0... I add 5.2PH stabilizer to the H2o and it comes down significantly. with a small addition to a pitcher of water I easily get that water to 5.8 with a small addition..

So, what exactly is the problem - and please dont' be militant in your response. I have a hot tub too and when the PH is to high I add a cap full of "PH Down" and it brings my PH to an acceptable range. ...and when I do this, it's a noticeable difference in the water softness and scaling is reduced.. So, why is the 5.2 product "snake oil" if it reduces the PH in the water (even if it's not exact)?

Would you rather brew with a solid 8.0 or a squishy 5.2?
 
I have read a ton on water chemistry. I realize it is not complicated. Takes an adjustment goal, a calculator, and a scale.

I'll be running experiments on the ability of the phosphate buffering solution (aka 5.2 stabilizer) to maintain an intended/pre-adjusted pH over the course of a mash. The field of pH stability, although affecting ionic content, is almost different ball game than just adjusting for ionic content. I'll have to see for myself if the buffering product does what a buffering product should do (not to be confused with what the marketing team says it should do).

Within the next couple of months I'll decide for myself objectively. I'm obviously just bitter about wasting my $12.99, so I'll have to do something...lol

Cool. AJ has done the work and advised that it is not useful for brewing. I did similar research to you when starting and discovered 5.2 does not work. Followed AJ's advice and bought a decent pH meter, made pH and ion adjustments and beers have improved to something I am proud of. Don't worry about the wasted $12.99 - that's cheap for homebrewing! It is a cheaper mistake than adding 5.2 and getting a poorer quality beer with $xx worth of ingredients.
 
just wondering - and I'm not critiquing here... but water out of my tap is PH 8.0... I add 5.2PH stabilizer to the H2o and it comes down significantly. with a small addition to a pitcher of water I easily get that water to 5.8 with a small addition..

So, what exactly is the problem - and please dont' be militant in your response. I have a hot tub too and when the PH is to high I add a cap full of "PH Down" and it brings my PH to an acceptable range. ...and when I do this, it's a noticeable difference in the water softness and scaling is reduced.. So, why is the 5.2 product "snake oil" if it reduces the PH in the water (even if it's not exact)?

Would you rather brew with a solid 8.0 or a squishy 5.2?

I believe that AJ said that the 5.2 product buffers down to 5.7 so it is not surprising that it pulls the pH down to 5.8. It is snake oil in the sense that it is not bringing the mash pH down to ideal brewing ranges.
 
just wondering - and I'm not critiquing here... but water out of my tap is PH 8.0... I add 5.2PH stabilizer to the H2o and it comes down significantly. with a small addition to a pitcher of water I easily get that water to 5.8 with a small addition..

The product is a phosphate buffer designed to buffer to pH 5.9. If you add it to anything it will try to pull the pH toward's 5.9. That's what you are seeing when you add it to your tap water.

So, what exactly is the problem - and please dont' be militant in your response.
The problem is that we don't want mash pH's of 5.9. We want them around 5.5 - 5.6. The other problem is that if we are to have good buffering we need a buffer with good buffering capacity. Phosphate buffers do not have good buffering capacity at mash pH's.


I have a hot tub too and when the PH is to high I add a cap full of "PH Down" and it brings my PH to an acceptable range.
'pH Down' is simply some sort of acid. When you add acid to a system the pH falls. Adding just an acid does not buffer (try to hold pH). The pH just keeps going down. If you were to add citric acid to your mash it would just keep decreasing and decreasing in pH. If, however, you add a mix of citric acid salts in the correct states of deprotonation (two and three protons) you would be adding a buffer and the pH would tend to go to the design pH.

...and when I do this, it's a noticeable difference in the water softness and scaling is reduced.. So, why is the 5.2 product "snake oil" if it reduces the PH in the water (even if it's not exact)?
It hasn't sufficient buffering capacity and it is tuned for the wrong pH.

Would you rather brew with a solid 8.0 or a squishy 5.2?

A solid 5.5 which I can't get with the 5.2 product (and I certainly can't get 5.2 with it). It won't take my mash there. If I want to control pH with phosphate I'll use phosphoric acid.
 
I used to use it blindly before I took a cold, hard look at mash pH. Quit using it, converted to RO water, and used Bru'n Water and started making awesome beer. I had a drastic change in flavor and efficiency. Not worth it IMO
 
I believe that AJ said that the 5.2 product buffers down to 5.7 so it is not surprising that it pulls the pH down to 5.8. It is snake oil in the sense that it is not bringing the mash pH down to ideal brewing ranges.

Does anyone have a link to the thread that has all the information of the "study"?

I believe that the pH drop you are talking about was with distilled water. Distilled water has a higher pH than a mash would, so buffering capacity would be way off. Keep in mind that this product is a buffer not a pH adjuster. It is worded in the marketing that it is meant to "lock" in a pH, not adjust (unless I'm mistaken). Maybe I'm a broken record, but I think this product is highly misinterpreted. Has anyone tried using an acid like acidulated malt to bring the pH down to buffering capacity, then add the pH stabilizer, and let the mash sit for 3 hours or longer? (This could be good for overnight mashes, letting the temp drop, without worrying about the mash souring.) I'd be interested in the pH curve of that mash with the stabilizer versus no stabilizer.
 
Does anyone have a link to the thread that has all the information of the "study"?

I believe that the pH drop you are talking about was with distilled water. Distilled water has a higher pH than a mash would, so buffering capacity would be way off. Keep in mind that this product is a buffer not a pH adjuster. It is worded in the marketing that it is meant to "lock" in a pH, not adjust (unless I'm mistaken). Maybe I'm a broken record, but I think this product is highly misinterpreted. Has anyone tried using an acid like acidulated malt to bring the pH down to buffering capacity, then add the pH stabilizer, and let the mash sit for 3 hours or longer? (This could be good for overnight mashes, letting the temp drop, without worrying about the mash souring.) I'd be interested in the pH curve of that mash with the stabilizer versus no stabilizer.

I'm well out of my depth when it comes to the details so can't comment any further. I assume you know AJ has a lot of experience in the field and is the one doing the research?

Not sure why you want to make hard work out of a simple process - add flavour ions (if you want to), mash, measure pH, adjust with lactic / phosphoric and you're done. The 5.2 is adding an undesirable step that makes worse beer.
 
Due to its chemical makeup, the 5.2 product does have some use in the brewery. It can be used in those rare cases where you need to add alkalinity to the mash to bring the pH up (typically for mashes with a lot of roast or crystal in water with very low alkalinity). It is an otherwise useless product. Considering its one asset, you can replace 5.2 with baking soda for a lot less money.
 
As I mentioned in #13 I do recall someone here or in another forum reporting that he had called 5 Star and was told that this (preventing mash pH from going too low) was the intended purpose of this stuff and nothing else even though the phrase "lock in pH" or something very like it does appear on the label. But it isn't very effective even for this. Look at the phosphate charge curve (it's in the water book). It is virtually flat over the region of interest to brewers. That means it doesn't buffer, it isn't acidic and it isn't basic or appreciably so with respect to pH's between say 3.4 and 6 (between which proton deficit/surfeit is < 0.05 mEq/mmol). This is just another way of saying that a phosphate based mash pH adjuster isn't a very good idea. By contrast bicarbonate, with respect to pH 6, delivers 0.7 mEq/mmol and, going in the other direction, phosphoric acid delivers 1 mEq/mmol (or a bit more) WRT to any mash pH of interest.
 
The product is a phosphate buffer designed to buffer to pH 5.9. If you add it to anything it will try to pull the pH toward's 5.9. That's what you are seeing when you add it to your tap water.

The problem is that we don't want mash pH's of 5.9. We want them around 5.5 - 5.6. The other problem is that if we are to have good buffering we need a buffer with good buffering capacity. Phosphate buffers do not have good buffering capacity at mash pH's.


'pH Down' is simply some sort of acid. When you add acid to a system the pH falls. Adding just an acid does not buffer (try to hold pH). The pH just keeps going down. If you were to add citric acid to your mash it would just keep decreasing and decreasing in pH. If, however, you add a mix of citric acid salts in the correct states of deprotonation (two and three protons) you would be adding a buffer and the pH would tend to go to the design pH.

It hasn't sufficient buffering capacity and it is tuned for the wrong pH.



A solid 5.5 which I can't get with the 5.2 product (and I certainly can't get 5.2 with it). It won't take my mash there. If I want to control pH with phosphate I'll use phosphoric acid.


excellent explanation... thank you!
 
After mentioning the phosphate charge curve in #25 it occurred to me that this really is a good way of gaining insight as to why a phosphate buffer may or may not work at controlling mash pH so I've attached the curve here. This is really more for the OP and others who have asked 'why not' than it is to illustrate the point WRT #24. The red curve shows the charge on 1 mmol of phospho. Phosphoric acid, monbasic phosphate ion, dibasic phosphate ion and tribasic phosphate ion are all components of 'phospho' or, put another way, the number of millimoles of phospho in a mash is the sum of the number of millimoles of phosphorous in those species. The relative occurance of each of those species is a function of the pH. If you add some phosphoric acid to water and then start dropping in a strong base (such as NaOH) the OH- ions from that will absorb protons from the acid and water will form:

H3(PO4) + OH- ---> H2(PO4)- + H2O

If you had 1 mmol of phosphoric acid originally and added 1/2 mmol of NaOH its 1/2 mEq of OH would take the protons from half the phosphoric acid and form the monobasic phosphate ion which has a single charge. The phosphoric acid molecule, H3(PO4), has no charge whereas the monobasic ion has the single charge and thus, the effect of adding 1/2 mEq of strong base to 1 mmol of phosphoric acid is to decrease the charge on the 1 mmol of phospho from 0 to -1/2. Looking at the graph we see that charge of -1/2 corresponds to pH 2.12. This is the first pK of phosphoric acid. So having arrived at pH 2.12 we have a system which contains a half millimole of phosphoric acid and a half millimole of monobasic phosphate ion. Lets add another 0.2 mmol strong base (total 0.7). More phosphoric converts to the monobasic ion. Reading from the curve, -0.7 total charge means the pH shifts to about 2.5. Now add another 0.2 mEq of the base (total 0.9). That must shift the total charge to -0.9. There is no where else for the negative charge on the hydroxyl ions to go. For -0.9 mEq phospho charge the pH is about 3. Now another 0.2 for total -1.1. The corresponding pH is 6.3!

For the first 0.2 mol increment (from pH 2.12) of base the pH shifted about 0.38. For the second it shifted about 0.5. For the third it shifted 3.3. Clearly the system is much more sensitive to base additions (it works the same way if we were to add strong acid) at pH 3 than it is at pH 2. By sensitive we mean that a small acid or base addition brings about a large change in pH. Where the curve is steep it means that a small pH shift requires a large acid or base addition. Where it is shallow it means that a small acid or base addition produces a large pH shift. As the phosphate system is flat over the range of mash pH it is clear that it is a poor buffer choice.

Someone asked why adding 5.2 to water at high pH would lower the pH. The blue curve shows the charge on 1 mmol of carbo (carbonic plus bicarbonate plus carbonate). Suppose we had water with 1 mmol carbo (about 50 ppm as CaCO3 alkalinity) at pH 8. The charge on the carbo system in 1 L of this water would be -1. Now suppose we add 1 mmol of 5.2 which is a mix of mono and dibasic ions set for pH 5.9. In distilled water its charge would be -1.05. Let us see what would happen if the alkalinity of the water dominated and the pH went to 8. The carbo would neither lose nor gain charge but the phospho would lose (negative charge increase) about 0.81 mEq. Conversely, if the 'buffer' were strong enough to pull the pH of the combined system to 5.9 it would neither gain nor lose charge but the carbo system would have to gain about 0.75 mEq. So clearly the pH will fall somewhere between 5.9 and 8. Examination of the chart shows that at pH 6.8 the carbo system will have gained charge of about 0.24 while the phospho system will have lost about 0.24. This, then, is where the pH will settle. Obviously, the final pH will depend on the relative amounts of phospho and carbo. At pH 6.4 it seems the carbo charge gain would be about 5 times the phospho loss so if we augment phospho by a factor of 5 we would expect the pH of this mix to be around 6.4.

It is exactly this line of reasoning that allows us to predict mash pH from knowledge of water, malt and salt/acid/base/buffer additions titration curves. It should also help illustrate why phosphate salts are not good candidates for mash pH adjustment (be they in the form of 'pH adjustors' or raw salts) but that phosphoric acid is.

Phos.jpg
 
I know without any extra info this is kind of a stretch, but here goes. I don't know anything about water chemistry and never bothered to learn because the water was always pretty solid at my old home. At this new location however all my hoppier beer come out weak at best. Not knowing any better I went out and bought some 5.2 and made a pale. The resulting beer was astringent and vinous and is going to be my first real dump after many years of brewing. I know without having all the information it's hard to rule out, but is 5.2 a likely cause of this?
Also is a city water report usually good to base future water adjustments on or should I really get my water tested? Here is the last report from 2013.
http://www.stalbansvt.com/vertical/sites/{6057F00C-4FBC-4942-B5A5-C142459B1038}/uploads/2013_CCR.pdf
BTW I'm buying John Palmer's Water tonight when I get home.
 
I know without having all the information it's hard to rule out, but is 5.2 a likely cause of this?

Probably not. If you have a mash that comes in at pH 5.7 or 5.8 the curve in the previous post makes it pretty plain that 5.2 won't do much of anything except add sodium to your brew.

Also is a city water report usually good to base future water adjustments on or should I really get my water tested?
If your water quality is pretty consistent then yes, a city report, provided that it give the information we need, can be good. If, OTOH, the report is a typical meet the EPA requirements for reporting only report it won't tell you what you need to know. Even if the report is complete (from the brewer's perspective) it can still be insufficient if your water parameters vary appreciably with season or as the supplier draws from different sources.
 
I know without any extra info this is kind of a stretch, but here goes. I don't know anything about water chemistry and never bothered to learn because the water was always pretty solid at my old home. At this new location however all my hoppier beer come out weak at best. Not knowing any better I went out and bought some 5.2 and made a pale. The resulting beer was astringent and vinous and is going to be my first real dump after many years of brewing. I know without having all the information it's hard to rule out, but is 5.2 a likely cause of this?
Also is a city water report usually good to base future water adjustments on or should I really get my water tested? Here is the last report from 2013.
http://www.stalbansvt.com/vertical/sites/{6057F00C-4FBC-4942-B5A5-C142459B1038}/uploads/2013_CCR.pdf
BTW I'm buying John Palmer's Water tonight when I get home.

I got a wards labs report and found it to be very close to the numbers I got from my city. (Irving TX). Pleasantly surprised.
 
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