Permanent Funeral Clone

[Brian555]

I would like to get a thread going to try to clone this beer. For those of you who have been lucky enough to try it, and are huge IPA fans such as myself, it will be a fun challenge.

I am thinking a simple grain bill with mostly domestic 2-row and minimal crystal 20L addition and maybe some melanoiden as three Floyd's is known for using it.

For hop profile, this beer is clearly hop bursted, with 90% or all additions occurring 15 min or less in boil with massive dry hop. I pick up dominant grapefruit / tropical fruit with a healthy dose of dank/ skunky aromas with some earthiness in the finish.

What say you homebrew talk?

 

[mtnagel]

Great idea! I just had some on Monday and it was very good.

I don't know how to begin cloning a beer, but I got some tropical aromas, so I'm thinking a big Australian dry hop would be good. I also got a distinct marijuana smell, but I also had a cold, so my senses were off, but it sounds similar to what you got.

 

[Brian555]

For Hops I was thinking

Earthy - nugget
Skunky, Dank - CTZ
Fruity, Tropical - Citra or Amarillo(3F loves this one).

Also I can't shake the feeling that Nelson Sauvin may be involved here.

Also 1 lb. of dextrose per 5 gallons to dry it out and let the hops shine through and a 90 min boil to help achieve ABV and brightness.

 

[Brian555]

Buehler..........Buehler?

 

[mtnagel]

It took me 2 tries to get it. I'm pretty sure the majority of people on here haven't had it. I don't think you're going to get too much response. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I'm no cloning expert.

 

[droder1]

In an interview With nick of 3f in the homebrewers companion book he says they were phasing out Amarillo , he thought they have gone downhill.

 

[Brian555]

Ended up brewing this one yesterday. Also threw in some Chinook as well. Will let everyone know how I t turns out.

 

[yetiyawp]

I tried this in January on a trip to Chicago. It's an amazing beer. Although it's been awhile, I was thinking at the time it must be Galaxy (or maybe Citra). I'd be very interested in hearing how your experiment turns out. I'm new to brewing and want to give this clone a try soon.

 

[FriendOrDafoe]

Any update as to how this is coming along. PF was absolutely killer.

 

[Dotay]

Not sure how trustworthy this is but according to this it only uses Citra.

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/09/how-many-hop-varieties-are-in-best-ipas.html

Three Floyds - Permanent Funeral - 1*f (Citra)

 

[FriendOrDafoe]

That's what I've heard. They brewed an Imperial Zombie Dust.

 

[Dotay]

Anyone have an idea of what the malts would be in this beer? A buddy of mine is obsessed with it so I'd like to take a stab at it.

 

[mtnagel]

Drinking another one right now. Can someone smarter than me please clone this beer. It's so freaking good.

 

[madscientist451]

found this clone recipe on brewtoad:

5 gallon batch

19.0 lb 2-Row (US)
1.0 lb Caramel/Crystal 20L
Hops

Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
2.0 oz Citra (US) 90 min Boil Pellet 13.0%
1.0 oz Columbus (US) 90 min Boil Pellet 14.2%
2.0 oz Citra (US) 5 min Boil Pellet 13.0%
3.0 oz Citra (US) 4 days Dry Hop Leaf 13.0%
3.0 oz Citra (US) 4 days Dry Hop Pellet 13.0%
3.0 oz Citra (US) 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 13.0%
2.0 oz Centennial (US) 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 10.5%
Yeasts

Name Lab/Product Attenuation
American Ale Wyeast 1056 75.0%
Mash steps

Step Heat Source Target Temp Time
Saccharification Rest Infusion 153.0 °F 90 min

 

[Zeppman]

I've had it a few times, and also feel that its kind of an imperial version of Zombie Dust. I taste more then just citra, but not sure what it is.

 

[Bramstoker17]

It's definitely Citra heavy if not a single hop. I'd say very light on the caramel or specialty malts, a pound of crystal seems a bit heavy to me. For yeast, the Zombie clone here uses Wyeast 1968, so maybe that would be a good guess as I feel there's a bit more yeast character than normal American Ale yeast provides.

Its such a great beer!

 

[dlampen45]

Damn i wish i had an abundance of citra instead of cascade right now i love that beer and forgot all about it till now

 

[Brian555]

My Clone recipe so far, it is damn close

10 Gallon

33 lbs. US 2 Row Pale Malt
1 lb. Munich I
1 lb. Crystal 20L
3 lbs. Dextrose (ups abv without the body)

All Citra hops

60 min - 3 oz.
15 min - 3 oz.
10 min - 4 oz.
5 min - 3 oz
0 Min - 5 oz.

6 oz. Dry Hop - 7 Days

Use a hopback with 3 Oz. Cool to 180 degrees F, run through hopback for 20 min complete cool. WY1272 or WY1056 work great.


Damn close and very delicious. Be careful though, to much of this will make you miss work.

 

[mtnagel]

No dry hop?

It seems crazy to me that it's only citra because it seems more complex than that. But I've heard other say that.

 

[Brian555]

Sorry 6 oz. dry hop for 7 days. You can kick up as high as 8 oz. The hopback adds a lot hop flavor without the bitter astringency that adds more depth to the citra. Citra is capable of adding several tropical, dank and sometimes skunky flavor profiles. It is an interesting hop for sure.

The dextrose and hopback are the real keys here in my opinion.

 

[ruascott]

Sorry 6 oz. dry hop for 7 days. You can kick up as high as 8 oz. The hopback adds a lot hop flavor without the bitter astringency that adds more depth to the citra. Citra is capable of adding several tropical, dank and sometimes skunky flavor profiles. It is an interesting hop for sure.

The dextrose and hopback are the real keys here in my opinion.

Anyway this could be made with extract?

 

[ruascott]

My Clone recipe so far, it is damn close

10 Gallon

33 lbs. US 2 Row Pale Malt
1 lb. Munich I
1 lb. Crystal 20L
3 lbs. Dextrose (ups abv without the body)

All Citra hops

60 min - 3 oz.
15 min - 3 oz.
10 min - 4 oz.
5 min - 3 oz
0 Min - 5 oz.

6 oz. Dry Hop - 7 Days

Use a hopback with 3 Oz. Cool to 180 degrees F, run through hopback for 20 min complete cool. WY1272 or WY1056 work great.


Damn close and very delicious. Be careful though, to much of this will make you miss work.

So I'm going to try this recipe.....scaled down to a 2.5 gal batch....using the BIAB method. Don't have a hopback, so will just try it without. Hopefully can get something anywhere close to the real thing.

Can I just cut everything above into 1/4ths and roll with it? Was going to mash at 152 and pitch S-05, as that's what's on hand.

Just really an experiment, though at nearly $40/case an expensive one. But considering it's $13 / 22oz bomber in the store, it may be a steal if it comes out ok.

I've not tried this high gravity recipie before.
Any other recommendations?

Plan is to start with 4G water in my 30qt pot. Have 1G at 170 for sparging. My calculator says that's a pre boil of 4.5G, post boil of 3G into fermenter. Bottling 2.5G after trub loss.

Ferment at approx 65 with S05.

 

[IslandLizard]

Anyway this could be made with extract?

I don't see why not. But it is not for beginners. There's over $25 of hops in a 5 gallon batch.

You would need to be able to do a full boil or your hop extraction and utilization will be too low. For 5 gallons, you'll need an 8 gallon kettle or split over 2 smaller kettles.

Replace the 2-row and C20 with an equal gravity of Golden Light DME. You must mash the Munich, don't steep it.

After mashing the Munich and sparging it 2x, bring the volume to 6.5 gallons, and bring to boil. When it comes to a boil, turn flame off, add HALF of your DME and stir well to dissolve. Resume boil and add your first hops. That's you 90 minute point.

At the end of the 90' boil, let the pot stand for 30 minutes, stirring every few minutes. Add the rest of the DME and the dextrose, stir well to dissolve. Stir every few minutes for the next 15 minutes. Chill and rack to fermentor. Pitch the yeast* and aerate like there is no tomorrow, or use pure oxygen with a oxygenation stone.

* You will need to make a 3-4 liter starter a few days ahead if you're using liquid yeast (WY1968). If you're using US-05 you need to properly rehydrate 2 packages before pitching.

Temperature control during fermentation is paramount. You want to ferment at the low range of the yeast for a week, perhaps longer. Ramp up slowly 5 degrees and let it finish up.

Cold crash for a few days until clear enough, bring back to room temps and dry hop a week before packaging. Prevent exposure to air and possible oxidation during the every step after fermentation starts.

 

[ruascott]

I don't see why not. But it is not for beginners. There's over $25 of hops in a 5 gallon batch.

You would need to be able to do a full boil or your hop extraction and utilization will be too low. For 5 gallons, you'll need an 8 gallon kettle or split over 2 smaller kettles.

Replace the 2-row and C20 with an equal gravity of Golden Light DME. You must mash the Munich, don't steep it.

After mashing the Munich and sparging it 2x, bring the volume to 6.5 gallons, and bring to boil. When it comes to a boil, turn flame off, add HALF of your DME and stir well to dissolve. Resume boil and add your first hops. That's you 90 minute point.

At the end of the 90' boil, let the pot stand for 30 minutes, stirring every few minutes. Add the rest of the DME and the dextrose, stir well to dissolve. Stir every few minutes for the next 15 minutes. Chill and rack to fermentor. Pitch the yeast* and aerate like there is no tomorrow, or use pure oxygen with a oxygenation stone.

* You will need to make a 3-4 liter starter a few days ahead if you're using liquid yeast (WY1968). If you're using US-05 you need to properly rehydrate 2 packages before pitching.

Temperature control during fermentation is paramount. You want to ferment at the low range of the yeast for a week, perhaps longer. Ramp up slowly 5 degrees and let it finish up.

Cold crash for a few days until clear enough, bring back to room temps and dry hop a week before packaging. Prevent exposure to air and possible oxidation during the every step after fermentation starts.

Thanks for the reply....as I posted a bit ago, I'm going to do a mini mash (BIAB), just trying a 2.5G batch first.

Will 1 packet of US05 be adequate for the small batch?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the reply....as I posted a bit ago, I'm going to do a mini mash (BIAB), just trying a 2.5G batch first.

Will 1 packet of US05 be adequate for the small batch?

Looks like our last messages just crossed.
I just stumbled upon this thread. The beer looks and "sounds" yummy.

(Light) Munich is self-convertible, but barely, so adding a few pounds of 2-row will be better. How big of a partial mash can you do? I'd do the largest possible, even use 2 pots/coolers/containers if you have them. More grain, less extract is better, more fermentable. Put it in BeerSmith and toy around for the best balance.

1 package of US-05 is enough for a 2.5 gallon batch, as long as you re-hydrate, and oxygenate or aerate really, really well. You don't want this to stall at 1.022.

If you have a smaller, 3.5 gallon bucket/fermentor I'd use that. Large headspace is not to your advantage. Instead of removing the lid, take samples through the grommet hole with a 1/4" piece of tubing and suck some out, in a sanitary fashion of course, no flow back.

The only disadvantage of US-05/WLP001/WY1056, aside from the very West Coast flavor profile, is it's a lousy flocculator. WY1272 is a bit better, moderate flocculator and seems to accentuate juiciness which goes well with Citra (and Centennial, Cascade, etc.). Don't know about WY1968 being the top choice here. I use it for American Porters (and ESBs) and it works wonderfully there.

 

[ruascott]

Looks like our last messages just crossed.
I just stumbled upon this thread. The beer looks and "sounds" yummy.

(Light) Munich is self-convertible, but barely, so adding a few pounds of 2-row will be better. How big of a partial mash can you do? I'd do the largest possible, even use 2 pots/coolers/containers if you have them. More grain, less extract is better, more fermentable. Put it in BeerSmith and toy around for the best balance.

1 package of US-05 is enough for a 2.5 gallon batch, as long as you re-hydrate, and oxygenate or aerate really, really well. You don't want this to stall at 1.022.

If you have a smaller, 3.5 gallon bucket/fermentor I'd use that. Large headspace is not to your advantage. Instead of removing the lid, take samples through the grommet hole with a 1/4" piece of tubing and suck some out, in a sanitary fashion of course, no flow back.

The only disadvantage of US-05/WLP001/WY1056, aside from the very West Coast flavor profile, is it's a lousy flocculator. WY1272 is a bit better, moderate flocculator and seems to accentuate juiciness which goes well with Citra (and Centennial, Cascade, etc.). Don't know about WY1968 being the top choice here. I use it for American Porters (and ESBs) and it works wonderfully there.

I have had the real one 3 times, and it's tremendous. I started brewing because I wanted to make beers similar to this...ones that are either ridiculously hard to get, or ridiculously priced (usually both).

I'm attempting to do this with no extract. I took the recipe on the last page and just had the local shop put together a grain bill 1/4th what was listed.

I've got a 30qt pot and will attempt to mash the entire approx 9lbs of grain in a paint strainer in approx 4G of strike water, right in the kettle. Then move bag into colander, and sparge over top with ladle, to get to a pre boil of just over 4G.

Not sure if this should be a 60 or 90 min boil. I used brewers friend and got approx 9.5 abv and 94 IBU using my schedule...a little less than the real deal, but close.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good idea to do a smaller batch the proper way. Let the bag drip and squeeze it after lifting it out. With higher gravity brews, a dunk in a bucket with a gallon or so of hot water and a good stir will be a more effective sparge than pouring water over the top. Like a batch sparge.

On these super high hopped beers a stirred hopstand or whirlpool for 30-60 minutes sliding from 190-170 degrees is no luxury. It takes a craft brewery at least that time to transfer and whirlpool. All that time the hops are exposed to hot wort and extracting. It leaves a longer lasting flavor.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

 

[ruascott]

Good idea to do a smaller batch the proper way. Let the bag drip and squeeze it after lifting it out. With higher gravity brews, a dunk in a bucket with a gallon or so of hot water and a good stir will be a more effective sparge than pouring water over the top. Like a batch sparge.

On these super high hopped beers a stirred hopstand or whirlpool for 30-60 minutes sliding from 190-170 degrees is no luxury. It takes a craft brewery at least that time to transfer and whirlpool. All that time the hops are exposed to hot wort and extracting. It leaves a longer lasting flavor.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Ok, Finally got around to brewing this up today. Shot for a 3 gal batch into fermenter, expecting 2.5G finished product with the massive trub.


First BIAB effort ever....started with 4G strike water at 162F. Mashed for 60ish mins at 152-154.

Bag went into 5G bucket and was sparged with 1G 170F water (dunk sparge). Waited 10 mins, then moved to strainer back over the sparge pot and got a bit more wort. Pre-boil gravity was roughly 1.044.

Figured out that my online BIAB calculator way overshot the grain absorption ratio, therefore I had too much strike water to start. Decided to boil off for about 20M before starting hops to try to get closer to the target gravity.


My hop schedule was

.75oz 60M
.25oz 15M
1oz 10M

1oz at flameout.....20m hopstand
1oz at 180F....10m hopstand

Also added 1lb dextrose at 10M (a bit higher than recipe called for, but I knew my efficiency was low).

Ended up at roughly 1.082 OG and right at 3G into the carboy. Pitched US-05 at 68F (and placed in 64F basement).

If all works out would be about 90IBU and 8.5ABV....short of a PF clone, but not bad for first try.

Plan to let primary for 3 weeks, adding 2oz dry hop for the last week. Will let you know in a month how it turns out from my new Christmas keg.

 

[ruascott]

Good idea to do a smaller batch the proper way. Let the bag drip and squeeze it after lifting it out. With higher gravity brews, a dunk in a bucket with a gallon or so of hot water and a good stir will be a more effective sparge than pouring water over the top. Like a batch sparge.

On these super high hopped beers a stirred hopstand or whirlpool for 30-60 minutes sliding from 190-170 degrees is no luxury. It takes a craft brewery at least that time to transfer and whirlpool. All that time the hops are exposed to hot wort and extracting. It leaves a longer lasting flavor.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Just to update....

I just kegged this beer tonight. Not only my first AG batch, also my first kegging.

I let this beer ferment at 64f for 1 week, moved it up to 70f for a 2nd week. Dry hopped it for 6 days, then cold crashed it for 48 hours. Then into the keg, right at 3 weeks. It finished at roughly 1.01 FG. Which puts me at roughly 9.5% (real deal is 10.5%)

This beer smelled so good, I had to sample it....even flat. I plugged in my lines and drew about an 8oz pour. It is divine...even flat. I'm gonna try hard to keep my hands off of this until next weekend....but gonna be really hard. Really hard to believe this is 9.5%, it is really smooth, dangerously so. Makes me think my readings were off it is so smooth.

Time to start planning a full 5G batch, though with the hefty grain bill, not sure how I can pull it off with my current equipment.

Make this beer!

 

[ruascott]

Have had a couple days of testing this fully carbed. It's very good, but it is not a PF clone. My feeling is the grain bill is too light. The real deal is just a bit darker, and a bit more sweet/malty backbone.

I think I'm going to take the ZD recipe on here, and up it to IIPA strength for the next shot. I have a feeling that is closer to proper grain bill.

This is a very tasty beer as is...and is very citra forward, but not a lot else. Does drink incredibly smooth for a 9.5%.

 

[jaybagley]

I don't know if anyone was successful, but this is my recipe attempt. Let me know what you think

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.78 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 10.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 200.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
17 lbs 0.3 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.3 %
1 lbs 11.2 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.7 %
12.2 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.5 %
12.2 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.5 %
12.2 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.5 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6 4.5 %
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 7 109.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 25.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 9 23.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 10 19.6 IBUs
3.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 11 22.2 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 22 lbs 0.1 oz

 

[Bramstoker17]

I don't know if anyone was successful, but this is my recipe attempt. Let me know what you think

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.78 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 10.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 200.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
17 lbs 0.3 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.3 %
1 lbs 11.2 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.7 %
12.2 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.5 %
12.2 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.5 %
12.2 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.5 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6 4.5 %
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 7 109.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 25.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 9 23.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 10 19.6 IBUs
3.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 11 22.2 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 22 lbs 0.1 oz

It looks good! That being said, there are a few changes I'd make if I was to brew this. First, 10 SRM seems a bit dark from what I recall of this beer. I'd say more like 8 or so. I'd cut down substantially on the C60, maybe down to 4 or 5 ounces.

I have no inside knowledge of their hop schedule, but I'd take the 60, 45, and 30 and move them all to 15 minutes or less. I know this beer is supposedly all Citra, but I'd hate using 4 ounces at 90 of such a great flavor and aroma hop when none of that will show up in the beer, just its bitterness. Why not go for a couple ounces of something like Warrior? It's cheaper per ounce with a cleaner bitterness, and it frees up more of that delicious Citra to use late in the boil or dry hop. Speaking of dry hop, I'd kick it up an ounce or two.

Again, just my opinions! You'll still get a great beer brewed as is

 

[ruascott]

I don't know if anyone was successful, but this is my recipe attempt. Let me know what you think

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.78 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 10.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 200.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
17 lbs 0.3 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.3 %
1 lbs 11.2 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.7 %
12.2 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.5 %
12.2 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.5 %
12.2 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.5 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6 4.5 %
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 7 109.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 25.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 9 23.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 10 19.6 IBUs
3.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 11 22.2 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 22 lbs 0.1 oz

That looks more like ZD, and PF isn't really an imperial ZD. The melanoiden is very unique and really only fits the ZD recipe.


Ok, so I've made a LOT of beer since last year when I was posting on this thread.

If you want PF, use Brian's recipe, but use WY1968. It'll be really close. I wouldn't waste the citra for the bittering, and I'd move almost all of the Citra to the end of the boil and then maybe a couple hopstands. Leave the rest the same.

Still one of the best beers I've made, and I barely knew what I was doing at the time, and had total ghetto equipment ($40 turkey fryer and a $1 paint strainer bag.)

I plan to do 5g of this in the next month.