Pellicle Photo Collection

[Billy-Klubb]

The pellicle on my Consecration clone looks like something out of an alien movie.

that looks like the terrain from some planet out of a Star Trek episode.

 

[stubbornman]

Supplication clone after adding cherries and oak.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Supplication clone after adding cherries and oak.

Beautiful! I pitched supplication and consecration dregs into separate 1gal experiments and got very active primary fermentation but no pellicle development so far. Not sure why...

 

[racs]

Hi all, Saw the pictures and it looks like a wild yeast to me and not necessarily Brett. I'm doing a Framboise attempt and I added Brett to my secondary fermentation and have no pellicle showing, but I know Brett is there just by the smell of it (its a funky animal smell). Although on other batches I have seen this pellicle in secondary fermentation and usually I just rack and its gone. What I have noticed about this pellicle is that it adds a light mineral taste to weizen which is not very noticeable after carbonation and no off-smells. To me Brett has a sweaty horse smell and its the same in wine and in beer. Hope this helps

 

[sweetcell]

Hi all, Saw the pictures and it looks like a wild yeast to me and not necessarily Brett.

sorry, which picture are you talking about? are you talking about your pellicle?

 

[TNGabe]

Beautiful! I pitched supplication and consecration dregs into separate 1gal experiments and got very active primary fermentation but no pellicle development so far. Not sure why...

Pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen. Active fermentation creates an anaerobic environment inside the fermentation vessel.

 

[racs]

I was talking mostly about the pics posted in this thread. I've seen that stuff in some of my batches (the white filmy stuff with bubbles that don't pop). I associate that stuff with wild yeast and not necessarily Brett or bacteria. Usually when working with bacteria what happens is that beer turns murky for a while until they die off. I agree with TNGabe pellicles or veils form in the presence of oxygen. When you are in primary fermentation there is enough CO2 and activity to keep those things from forming, but when you start secondary CO2 levels go down and you start seeing veil formation. When they start forming I give it a swirl to keep them from forming or rack the hell out of them and add CO2. Wild yeast are a gamble they can give your brew something good or something nasty. I depends on what you want for your brew. In any case they are really cool and scary to work with.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen. Active fermentation creates an anaerobic environment inside the fermentation vessel.

Makes perfect sense. So for a small experiment where there is already CO2 from fermentation should I just leave them be or rack for longer aging? Will I still get activity from whatever bugs were in the dregs even if I can't see evidence in pellicle form? I have done one Brett fermentation but no bacteria. And I saved those dregs in a sanitized container in the fridge for several months. I got very active fermentation but not sure exactly what is working in there.

 

[sweetcell]

Hi all, Saw the pictures and it looks like a wild yeast to me and not necessarily Brett.

I was talking mostly about the pics posted in this thread. I've seen that stuff in some of my batches (the white filmy stuff with bubbles that don't pop). I associate that stuff with wild yeast and not necessarily Brett or bacteria.

looks like your experience doesn't align with most of the folks here. the vast majority of pictures in this thread are of brews that contain brett and/or other bugs that were pitched on purpose. they are not wild yeasts.

my experience with wild yeast is that they don't form pellicles at all. i've haven't read a single thing that says that wild yeasts form pellicles. no more so than brewer's yeast (saccharomyces cerevisiae).

I'm doing a Framboise attempt and I added Brett to my secondary fermentation and have no pellicle showing, but I know Brett is there just by the smell of it (its a funky animal smell).

brett will form a pellicle in the presence of oxygen. the fact that you're not seeing a pellicle means you're doing a good job of keep oxygen out of your fermenter. if you want to see a pellicle, remove the bung for a few minutes, re-seal, and wait a few days.

i have two one-gallon jugs of saison to which i added brett. one formed a pellicle, the other didn't. i guess one had a better seal, or somehow managed to expel the oxygen while the other didn't.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Um, isn't Brett a type of wild yeast?

You guys mean native wild yeast?

Other than that little nitpick, I agree with sweetcell.

 

[TNGabe]

Um, isn't Brett a type of wild yeast?

You guys mean native wild yeast?

Other than that little nitpick, I agree with sweetcell.

If brett is a wild yeast than so is sacc, right?

Wild yeast is a largely meaningless term, is it not?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

If brett is a wild yeast than so is sacc, right?

Not necessarily.

S. cerevisiae is the domesticated brewer's yeast, while Brett is its distant (wild) cousin. This is also I.A.W. White Labs website.

Wild yeast is a largely meaningless term, is it not?

I wouldn't say that. It's somewhat relative. What's packaged and sold in some areas of the globe is wild in others.

Perhaps it could be argued as a matter of semantics, but in my (and others') opinion, there's domesticated brewer's yeast, then there are wilds, including Brett. You will notice that there are certain behaviors and characteristics common among Brett and other wild yeasts that don't encompass S. cerevisiae. Perhaps looking at it from a taxonomic perspective would illustrate the point better?

 

[TNGabe]

Not necessarily.

S. cerevisiae is the domesticated brewer's yeast, while Brett is its distant (wild) cousin. This is also I.A.W. White Labs website.


I wouldn't say that. It's somewhat relative. What's packaged and sold in some areas of the globe is wild in others.

Perhaps it could be argued as a matter of semantics, but in my (and others') opinion, there's domesticated brewer's yeast, then there are wilds, including Brett. You will notice that there are certain behaviors and characteristics common among Brett and other wild yeasts that don't encompass S. cerevisiae. Perhaps looking at it from a taxonomic perspective would illustrate the point better?

Heck, I don't even know what taxonomic means. I'm just looking at it from a dumbies perspectve. Is S. cerevisiae not found in nature? I just read the abstract, but this suggests so if I understand it.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Heck, I don't even know what taxonomic means. I'm just looking at it from a dumbies perspectve. Is S. cerevisiae not found in nature? I just read the abstract, but this suggests so if I understand it.

First, start here.

Second, sure S. cerevisiae the species is found in nature. In the same sense that wolves and wild cats are, but we own domesticated dogs and cats for pets. Meaning, man has domesticated a former "wild" species, with which we have bred many different sub species of yeast (i.e. we call them strains) that are now domesticated and isolated from most that are naturally occurring, however still under the same genus and species. Therefore "wild" could indicate a strain found naturally occurring in the grain fields of the Midwest that are remarkably similar to domesticated strains commercially available to both homebrewers and pro brewers alike. However, according to the taxonomic charts and observed characteristics, there could be some fundamental differences such as metabolism, attenuation, flavor contribution, whether or not it will produce a pellicle, etc.


Again, I'll concede that this could be a semantic issue, but there is plenty to support this, both brewing wise, and biologically speaking.

 

[TNGabe]

First, start here.

Second, sure S. cerevisiae the species is found in nature. In the same sense that wolves and wild cats are, but we own domesticated dogs and cats for pets. Meaning, man has domesticated a former "wild" species, with which we have bred many different sub species of yeast (i.e. we call them strains) that are now domesticated and isolated from most that are naturally occurring, however still under the same genus and species. Therefore "wild" could indicate a strain found naturally occurring in the grain fields of the Midwest that are remarkably similar to domesticated strains commercially available to both homebrewers and pro brewers alike. However, according to the taxonomic charts and observed characteristics, there could be some fundamental differences such as metabolism, attenuation, flavor contribution, whether or not it will produce a pellicle, etc.


Again, I'll concede that this could be a semantic issue, but there is plenty to support this, both brewing wise, and biologically speaking.

Quoting wikipedia is never good for credibility in my book. Let's call it semantics and be friends. I've been causing enough trouble bickering about the definition of things here lately.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Quoting wikipedia is never good for credibility in my book. Let's call it semantics and be friends. I've been causing enough trouble bickering about the definition of things here lately.

The Wiki article on taxonomy is accurate, I assure you. Taxonomy is essentially the classification of biological organisms based on shared characteristics. I can provide other sources if you're hesitant on the Wiki article.

I agree, though, let's not let this get between us, as we both love, brew, and drink the same thing ultimately. You'll either have to trust me on this one, or research this for yourself on your own time.

Cheers!

TB

 

[TNGabe]

The Wiki article on taxonomy is accurate, I assure you. Taxonomy is essentially the classification of biological organisms based on shared characteristics. I can provide other sources if you're hesitant on the Wiki article.

I agree, though, let's not let this get between us, as we both love, brew, and drink the same thing ultimately. You'll either have to trust me on this one, or research this for yourself on your own time.

Cheers!

TB

Internet sarcasm fails again!

On my part, that is, when I feigned ignorance of taxonomy.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Internet sarcasm fails again!

On my part, that is, when I feigned ignorance of taxonomy.

As long as you know.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Makes perfect sense. So for a small experiment where there is already CO2 from fermentation should I just leave them be or rack for longer aging? Will I still get activity from whatever bugs were in the dregs even if I can't see evidence in pellicle form? I have done one Brett fermentation but no bacteria. And I saved those dregs in a sanitized container in the fridge for several months. I got very active fermentation but not sure exactly what is working in there.

Sorry to bump myself, but it appears y'all have concluded your admittedly entertaining discussion! Just a couple questions regarding best practice here that I would love some feedback on.

 

[bottlebomber]

I agree, though, let's not let this get between us, as we both love, brew, and drink the same thing ultimately.

Wait, are you guys domestic partners?

 

[jeepinjeepin]

To add to the wild yeast discussion, a soon to open brewery somewhat near me, say 2 hours down the interstate, has been collecting wild yeast samples from a fruit orchard to hopefully use to ferment a beer using the same fruit. They lucked out and ran across a microbiologist that specializes in yeast. They have a nice partnership and all now. This guy tells me that this biologist has thousands of yeast cultures from different areas that she has traveled. It's crazy to think that they are so diverse. Only a small subset produce ethanol or flavor compounds that we enjoy in beer.

 

[smokinghole]

Saying wild yeast is so vague. That would encompass so many species other than just brettanomyces and saccharomyces. I wouldn't consider the cultured strains of Brett "wild" anymore because you are pitching from a known tube. There at obviously wild types of both saccharomyces and brettanomyces and other yeasts. Some will form pellicles and some won't, it just depends on what you have. Oxygen is obviously a factor of formation too.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Saying wild yeast is so vague. That would encompass so many species other than just brettanomyces and saccharomyces.

Indeed, it would.

I wouldn't consider the cultured strains of Brett "wild" anymore because you are pitching from a known tube.

I disagree, and I've explained why. If you take nothing else from what I've explained, just try to focus more on the difference between "cultured" and "domesticated" yeast. We'll just have to leave it there I guess.

 

[agodfrey11]

In my home brewery wild yeast means anything that wasn't purposely put into my beer but is there now. If I pitch a vial of Brett, it wouldn't be wild IMO.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

In my home brewery wild yeast means anything that wasn't purposely put into my beer but is there now. If I pitch a vial of Brett, it wouldn't be wild IMO.

Really? That's your criteria? Well, thanks for your opinion.

 

[mutedog]

I'd say wild yeast is yeast that was obtained from some non laboratory source.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I'd say wild yeast is yeast that was obtained from some non laboratory source.

So a lion is no longer wild when it is caged? Capturing a wild organism makes it domesticated? Does an organism have be in the wild to be wild?

I think what you guys are still confusing is the difference between cultured and domesticated. Naturally occurring and native.

With Brett, you're buying cultured wild yeast that is native to other regions of the globe that developed independently of human selection. Unlike domesticated brewer's yeasts, which are selected and bred for specific characteristics and are now noticeably different than their wild ancestors.

I'm enjoying this debate, but perhaps it is derailing the thread too much. PM me if anyone wants to continue this.

TB

 

[GruNdeL]

Hi all, first time poster and had to share my pellicles. Also this great thread needs more pics!

The first two are top down into a natural cider in two different one gallon jugs. Picked up the cider fresh squeezed off the presses at a local orchard, no pasteurization. Capped with an airlock and they've been sitting since just after Thanksgiving 2012. Interestingly it made two different looking pellicles but they taste the same/similar (maybe I'm not that discerning).

The last one is an older pic of an experiment that I've been running. Started as a brown ale and I threw in some cherries and blackberries and some dregs from Weyerbacher Rapture. It was my first pellicle.

 

[ardyexfor]

I finally have something interesting enough to post here. I pitched a handful of grains into a simple sugar solution and then stepped it up by pitching into an apple juice/wort mixture that wasn't souring up much after a wyeast lacto pitch. You can read more in my own thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/bunk-lacto-399532/

24 HRs after pitching:



7 HRs later:





Still trying to figure out what it is...

 

[racs]

Brett from a tube or from environment makes a different. If you added Brett to your culture you expect certain things to happen. I've seen all of those veil formations without adding Brett. There is ton of wild/native yeast in grain. And yes, the term wild is vague. But, it is the only term I like using when I'm not sure what strain is causing the veil. The only thing I know in my experience is either you like the flavors that they add to your beer or not. I don't like it so I rack once its starts showing. Even if you don't add bacteria, it is there, same as wild yeast. Bacteria to do its work has to have temperature. Lactobacillus, Pediococcus, Oenococcus thet go to work at temps above 20 C. If you want them you keep temp up, if not you keep temp down. When you rack, you remove all the yeast at the bottom (some of it is great quality, and the other stuff is dead) but you don't get all of it or all the bacteria since a lot stuff remains in suspension. So, if you add nutrients or raise temps you might ignite fermentation again (with less vigor) or malolactic transformation. It depends on what you want and what you have in your beer. As I said before working with wild/native strains of anything is a gamble. That's what makes brewing so fun.