Paying for Beer Evaluation

[Phunhog]

It seems like there is always some disgruntled brewers over competition scores or more importantly feedback. What is the point of forking over 7 dollars an entry and getting pretty worthless feedback from someone who isn't even a BJCP judge? I know it is a volunteer judge so what do you expect...you get what you pay for.
Now I am not a BJCP judge so I can't do this but..I think it would be awesome if some high ranking judges would offer their services/ evaluation skills for hire. I don't know about you but I would pay 10-15 dollars to have my beer carefully evaluated by an experienced judge in a non-competition setting. Maybe even get a nice PDF scoresheet with all their legible comments. You could even provide them with a the recipe so that they can make recommendations based on it. Does anyone already provide this service?

 

[Bmorebrew]

I've never heard of anything like that and I don't see there being a big market for it. Like you say, you pay to enter a contest - which presumably you could win something from in the process as well as get feedback. I don't see why someone would pay money to have someone judge the same beer for nothing in return except for some score sheets. And for 10 to 15 dollars? Wow. What happens if you're not satisfied with the score or you disagree on certain things? Do you argue until they give you a fake 40 something score?

Most events I've seen usually have judges of mixed experience by design - ones that have done lots and lots of contests and some that have not. The ones that haven't need to start somewhere. If someone is so interested in what judges have to say about their beer, they wouldn't make or break a particular recipe on a single judge's scores. Or even a single batch. If you really wanted an objective opinion on your recipe and brewing ability, submit the same beer brewed multiple times to multiple contests and give weight to the positives and negatives that consistently show up on the sheet.

 

[Yooper]

If you've entered a poorly run competition, please contact the AHA right away so they can fix the issues. The instructions for judges are very clear:

(From the BJCP rules site):
As a judge, the product of your work is the scoresheet that is returned to the entrant. Entrants trust you to provide legible, accurate, and thorough evaluations of their entries. They have paid entry fees and possibly shipping costs to submit their entries. Keep in mind that your comments will not only affect the entrants’ impressions of you, but also of the competition and the competition organizers. Fill out scoresheets as you would have other judges fill out scoresheets for your own homebrew.

Judges’ comments must include:

Evaluations of the sensory aspects of the entry and how those aspects relate to the Style Guidelines.
Comments that are constructive and reflect knowledge of the brewing, fermenting, bottling, and handling processes.
Information on how to improve the entry as warranted.
Constructive feedback and encouragement for the entrant in all cases.

Judges’ comments must NOT include:

Assumptions about the brewing process or ingredients without qualifying statements such as “If you used…” or “Did you…?”
Derogatory, rude, and/or snide comments.

 

[Phunhog]

You are right about entering multiple contests...but at 7-10 dollars per contest plus shipping you could spend close to 40 dollars to get a consensus. I would rather get 1 evaluation from one of the top judges in the country then multiple score sheets from some guys who just took the BJCP exam. The other thing is that sometimes we all have beer that is ready "now". It may not make sense to wait a month or two for a well run comp to come along so they can judge your "past its' prime" beer. I don't brew for contests like some people do as far as timing my beer so it is at its' peak for the contest. I am just looking for honest, critical feedback from a skilled, experienced judge that will make my beer better.

 

[Airborneguy]

I have to say, as long as Phunhog doesn't attempt to turn this into an attempt to sell homebrew like most of his posts, I kind of like this idea. Unless something in the BJCP rules forbid it for judges (ie, they lose their certification if they start doing something like this), I'd say some judge will start doing it eventually. If the price was right, there's certainly homebrewers who would take advantage of this service. I would for certain styles that I brew, especially lagers.

As the OP pointed out, contests are just too inconsistent. Yooper, I actually did contact the AHA over a poorly run contest (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f209/east-coast-west-coast-brew-off-wtf-282964/) and was basically told that they couldn't do much. Gary Glass even pretty much told me that they would likely sanction the organizers in the future. That contest was my last straw as far as entering non-local comps. In the future, I'll only enter any that HBT holds or local once which don't require expensive shipping.

 

[wailingguitar]

It seems like there is always some disgruntled brewers over competition scores or more importantly feedback. What is the point of forking over 7 dollars an entry and getting pretty worthless feedback from someone who isn't even a BJCP judge? I know it is a volunteer judge so what do you expect...you get what you pay for.

I never took the certification exam, but as a professional brewer I, along with a number of my colleagues, have judged in sanctioned competitions. I have also met a couple BJCP certified judges who had technical knowledge, but couldn't make a decent beer to save their lives. While I have a lot of respect for the BJCP, I wouldn't say that it is necessary one way or the other for a quality judge.

 

[cardinalsfan]

I've never heard of anything like that and I don't see there being a big market for it. Like you say, you pay to enter a contest - which presumably you could win something from in the process as well as get feedback. I don't see why someone would pay money to have someone judge the same beer for nothing in return except for some score sheets. And for 10 to 15 dollars? Wow. What happens if you're not satisfied with the score or you disagree on certain things? Do you argue until they give you a fake 40 something score?

Most events I've seen usually have judges of mixed experience by design - ones that have done lots and lots of contests and some that have not. The ones that haven't need to start somewhere. If someone is so interested in what judges have to say about their beer, they wouldn't make or break a particular recipe on a single judge's scores. Or even a single batch. If you really wanted an objective opinion on your recipe and brewing ability, submit the same beer brewed multiple times to multiple contests and give weight to the positives and negatives that consistently show up on the sheet.

IIRC, there is actually someone you can send beer to who will evaluate it for a fee...gimme a sec to see if i can find him.

Found it!!

http://thebeerclinic.com/beerclinic.htm

it's $6 plus shipping and he is a certified BJCP judge.

 

[Yooper]

I've had people from this forum send me beer to judge for them. Not for a fee, of course, but just to fill out the scoresheet and give two honest evals. (Bob is the other judge).

I'm sure you could do that with another member of the forum that is an experienced beer judge.

Judging beer sounds like a great "job" but it really can be work. You don't get to say, "I like this" or "I don't like that". You really take about 10-15 minutes per beer (even bad ones) and analyze them and fill out the scoresheets according to the style guidelines. I've had some wonderful beers, but I've had a few not-so-good ones.

And while I didn't enjoy that bad ones, those are the ones that helped the brewer the most. I mean, "astringency noted on the finish- check water chemistry and/or sparge temperatures" is a helpful tidbit. So is, "mouthfeel is a bit too thin for a barley wine. Consider increasing base malt and increasing mash temperature". Judging is not all that easy, and they all do their best.

 

[fletchsj]

Make friends with respected judges, pro brewers, LHBS owners etc. NHC is a great place for this as well as other competitions, brewfests, club meetings etc. Ask these people to critique your beer using BJCP guidelines. I have a number of friends who do that for me. I ask for harsh judgment and don't hold it against them. I offer the same for them.

 

[Phunhog]

IIRC, there is actually someone you can send beer to who will evaluate it for a fee...gimme a sec to see if i can find him.

Found it!!

http://thebeerclinic.com/beerclinic.htm

it's $6 plus shipping and he is a certified BJCP judge.

Thanks!!:rockin: That is exactly what I am looking for!

 

[bruin_ale]

Fletch has the right idea, why go to the hassle of paying and sending your beer? Sure, not everybody has a homebrew club nearby - but alot of us do. My club has quite a few ranked BJCP judges, one of them actually organizes a comp for another bay area club. He's got access to many more judges than that, some of which are grand masters. If you live in BFE, I guess sending it to someone and paying may be the only option - but if you have access to a homebrew club you should take advantage of that resource.

 

[Phunhog]

I do belong to my local HBC but we are pretty informal. A few guys have taken the BJCP class but no one is an active judge that I know of. There is a really good HBC about an hour away but by the time you figure in gas it is cheaper to just mail in the beers.

 

[Pappers_]

IIRC, there is actually someone you can send beer to who will evaluate it for a fee...gimme a sec to see if i can find him.

Found it!!

http://thebeerclinic.com/beerclinic.htm

it's $6 plus shipping and he is a certified BJCP judge.

I know Marty Nachel (who runs this service). He attends my homebrew club's meetings occasionally and I attended a beer sensory class he ran. I can recommend him.

 

[Denny]

If you've entered a poorly run competition, please contact the AHA right away so they can fix the issues.

Actually, you should contact the comp organizer or the BJCP. Other than NHC, the AHA doesn't have anything to do with comps.

 

[Denny]

You are right about entering multiple contests...but at 7-10 dollars per contest plus shipping you could spend close to 40 dollars to get a consensus. I would rather get 1 evaluation from one of the top judges in the country then multiple score sheets from some guys who just took the BJCP exam. The other thing is that sometimes we all have beer that is ready "now". It may not make sense to wait a month or two for a well run comp to come along so they can judge your "past its' prime" beer. I don't brew for contests like some people do as far as timing my beer so it is at its' peak for the contest. I am just looking for honest, critical feedback from a skilled, experienced judge that will make my beer better.

while there are some great judges out there, I'd much rather have multiple opinions than a single one.

 

[Yooper]

Actually, you should contact the comp organizer or the BJCP. Other than NHC, the AHA doesn't have anything to do with comps.

Denny's right- I mispoke. I certainly meant the BJCP, and not the AHA. Sorry for the confusion!

But....If you entered a contest and paid for your entry and are unhappy with the feedback you received, you should definitely contact the BJCP and the competition organizers. Any inappropriately completed score sheets should be brought to the attention of the organizers and the BJCP.

 

[slym2none]

Only $40!!! "What a bargain!"

 

[berrywise]

Only $40!!! "What a bargain!"

Shipping, packaging, cost of ones time. I don't see how that is outrageous. Do you work for minimum wage?

 

[slym2none]

Do you work for minimum wage?

Lots of people do. Nice try at an insult.

 

[iijakii]

Send me beer and I'll review for free. As long as it's not a fvcking saison.

 

[berrywise]

Lots of people do. Nice try at an insult.

Insult? It was a question.

 

[slym2none]

Ok.

What I make per hour is not the issue. $40 seems like a lot, esp. when there was a place that did the same thing for $6, you just had to ship it yourself.

 

[berrywise]

Ok.

What I make per hour is not the issue. $40 seems like a lot, esp. when there was a place that did the same thing for $6, you just had to ship it yourself.

Six dollars is not even minimum wage unless they are doing multiple bottles at a time which I doubt they will be. I'd argue that if someone were charging six dollars for this service they were doing it out of the kindness of their own heart and not to make a profit. This person appears to be looking to offer a service, that they feel people must want, and make some money doing so.

Forty dollars may prove to be too much but I think if you factor in a minimal amount of overhead such as website, packaging and most importantly cost of ones time I bet they are not going to get rich off this.

Okay I must admit while typing this I started to laugh at why I'm even defending this. I guess I've just been in positions where people have expected me to work for less than what I feel I'm worth and I've had to say no. There is always someone else who will do it for cheaper, you just never know the results you are going to get (No offense to the poster before me

 

[slym2none]

I didn't know it took an hour to judge a single beer.



My opinion is, at $40 per, they won't be in business long.

 

[1977Brewer]

I didn't know it took an hour to judge a single beer.



My opinion is, at $40 per, they won't be in business long.

I've been known to judge a whole six pack in that time. Or, I've been told I judged them. Should have taken notes. And food.