Pale ale with (S04 yeast) fermentation temperature

[j-bon3]

Ok, so I am a new brewer, it's my second batch but I had a nasty experience the first time (but it's something I already enjoy and want to keep doing).

Now, I have read through many threads on the topic but would like to ask about my situation none the less (i'm guessing most newer brewers can be extremely paranoid).
I brewed over the weekend (a pale ale using the s04 yeast), I pitched around 70 and left to ferment in an ambient of around the same (one or two degrees higher and lower to account for day and night temp fluctuations). I had secured a small freezer to control temp but our fridge broke and I had to wait several days for the technician.

There was vigorous fermentation for for first 48 hours after which the kraussen dropped down. I was just too worried about fiddling with the carboy at first but after reading some threads thought it may be best to just move it to the mini chest freezer and keep it around 65 after 4 and a half days of a suggested three week fermentation (primary only)

Is this my best bet as I would still like to have a drinkable beer that is not too fruity (eastery) or have a harsh alcohol taste and some decent clarity (it's still quite murky at the moment)? Or is it too little too late for me? I have also seen some posts saying extra fermentation time can help with the eastery flavours ect.?

Sorry about the lengthy post, I just need a win as my wife is questioning this whole brewing hobby after the first fail- and she loves beer too!

 

[Miraculix]

Leave it at room temp, after two days fermentation it is almost done. It will clear very well as this is what 04 does.

It will be a bit estery but your cannot change this now. You probably like it anyway.

You don't need three weeks primary, you can bottle two days after final gravity has been reached which is approximately after 7 to ten 10 days.

 

[kh54s10]

You are on the right track. Temperature control is one of the best ways to make your beers better.

Fermentation is exothermic, meaning if ambient temperatures are around 70 degrees your beer could reach the 80s during fermentation. That is not good.

You will probably get a quite drinkable beer unless there was something else.

Any damage done by high temperature is there in the first few days and you can't really correct for it. Aging might help a little.

No need to ferment for 3 weeks. Fermentation is done in 5-7 usually and a couple more days to allow the yeast to finish what they do. I go 14 days to be sure. But often longer and sometimes much longer due to procrastination of bottling/kegging. I have not seen much difference between packaging on day 14 or day 48....

 

[j-bon3]

Leave it at room temp, after two days fermentation it is almost done. It will clear very well as this is what 04 does.

It will be a bit estery but your cannot change this now. You probably like it anyway.

You don't need three weeks primary, you can bottle two days after final gravity has been reached which is approximately after 7 to ten 10 days.

To be honest I'm a little nervous to take off the airlock for gravity measurements... That being said it's still quite murky... will this clear up when it is ready regardless of temperature??

 

[kh54s10]

To be honest I'm a little nervous to take off the airlock for gravity measurements... That being said it's still quite murky... will this clear up when it is ready regardless of temperature??

It should clear up some. Sometimes perfectly clear, but not always. A little haziness will not hurt anything but your perception of what it should look like.

Finings and cold crashing will speed and help the process of clearing. I would not suggest you do that for a while. Get your other brewing processes down first.

I would suggest that you go at least 14 days, your 3 week timetable won't hurt anything, just that it's usually unnecessary to go that long.
I would also suggest that at 12 (or longer) days take a gravity reading. On day 14 take another. If the numbers are the same, (the second reading is not lower) it is safe to bottle the beer. If the gravity is still dropping, make sure it stops before you bottle or you could get over carbonation to the point where you might get bottles exploding.

And RDWHAHB. Relax, Don't Worry Have A Homebrew. Or in you case probably a craft brew. Once you get over the jitters you should have a lot of fun brewing you own beer.

 

[couchsending]

S04 is a tough yeast to use unless you have very good temp control. You can’t rely on ambient temp with that yeast and definitely not 70* ambient. If ambient was 60 maybe.

SO4 can get rather odd above 68 IMHO. I try to keep it below 65 for the first 2-3 days and that’s controlled in a conical not ambient. If you don’t have temp control or don’t have a space that’s colder than 70 you’ll need to look for other yeasts to use.

Definitely don’t move it to somewhere colder now. The yeast produces almost all its flavor compounds in the first few days. Most likely you’ll have some higher alcohols and a rather estery beer. You don’t need to give that yeast much longer than 7-10 days. Three weeks won’t do you any good. Once it’s done, it’s done. It floccs pretty fast and once that happens you won’t get any additional benefits of having the beer on the yeast.

 

[j-bon3]

It should clear up some. Sometimes perfectly clear, but not always. A little haziness will not hurt anything but your perception of what it should look like.

Finings and cold crashing will speed and help the process of clearing. I would not suggest you do that for a while. Get your other brewing processes down first.

I would suggest that you go at least 14 days, your 3 week timetable won't hurt anything, just that it's usually unnecessary to go that long.
I would also suggest that at 12 (or longer) days take a gravity reading. On day 14 take another. If the numbers are the same, (the second reading is not lower) it is safe to bottle the beer. If the gravity is still dropping, make sure it stops before you bottle or you could get over carbonation to the point where you might get bottles exploding.

And RDWHAHB. Relax, Don't Worry Have A Homebrew. Or in you case probably a craft brew. Once you get over the jitters you should have a lot of fun brewing you own beer.

Thanks so much guys... fingers crossed... will take the reading at 12 days and then at 14... Hopefully bottle it then and will update this thread when I bottle and when I taste again..

 

[j-bon3]

S04 is a tough yeast to use unless you have very good temp control. You can’t rely on ambient temp with that yeast and definitely not 70* ambient. If ambient was 60 maybe.

SO4 can get rather odd above 68 IMHO. I try to keep it below 65 for the first 2-3 days and that’s controlled in a conical not ambient. If you don’t have temp control or don’t have a space that’s colder than 70 you’ll need to look for other yeasts to use.

Definitely don’t move it to somewhere colder now. The yeast produces almost all its flavor compounds in the first few days. Most likely you’ll have some higher alcohols and a rather estery beer. You don’t need to give that yeast much longer than 7-10 days. Three weeks won’t do you any good. Once it’s done, it’s done. It floccs pretty fast and once that happens you won’t get any additional benefits of having the beer on the yeast.

Yes I find there is more pushback against s04 than people who actually like it online generally speaking... that being said most experienced brewers seem to agree on 10 days (which puts it midweek for me, 14 is the most convenient so probably that time frame)

Would a 7 day bottle conditioning be fine for me?

 

[kh54s10]

S04 is a tough yeast to use unless you have very good temp control. You can’t rely on ambient temp with that yeast and definitely not 70* ambient. If ambient was 60 maybe.

SO4 can get rather odd above 68 IMHO. I try to keep it below 65 for the first 2-3 days and that’s controlled in a conical not ambient. If you don’t have temp control or don’t have a space that’s colder than 70 you’ll need to look for other yeasts to use.

Definitely don’t move it to somewhere colder now. The yeast produces almost all its flavor compounds in the first few days. Most likely you’ll have some higher alcohols and a rather estery beer. You don’t need to give that yeast much longer than 7-10 days. Three weeks won’t do you any good. Once it’s done, it’s done. It floccs pretty fast and once that happens you won’t get any additional benefits of having the beer on the yeast.

I haven't found S-04 to be so unforgiving, though I have had pretty good temperature control for years. My first couple years I used a swamp cooler with ice bottles. The temperature fluctuated quite a bit then, but I got very good beers then using a large variety of yeasts, including S-04

 

[kh54s10]

Would a 7 day bottle conditioning be fine for me?

Not likely. The most accepted time frame for bottle conditioning is 3 weeks at 70 degrees. I have never tried a bottle at one week. At 2 weeks some are carbonated and some are not. ALL my beers have tasted better at 3 weeks or longer when bottle conditioned. Some of the bigger beers didn't get good carbonation for longer and some of them needed aging for many months to peak in flavor.

 

[Yooper]

I am one of the S04 lovers/haters. I love it for clear beer with a neutral flavor- at 64 degrees or less (fermentation temperature). At 68 degrees, it gets estery (but not as weirdly as nottingham), and above that, it gets foul-ish in aroma with the flavor to follow.

I've had some bottles carb up within 7 days with S04, but I'd only fridge one or two, and keep the rest at 70 degrees for at least another week or two.

 

[couchsending]

To me if So4 gets too warm it can get very lactic... almost a yogurt like aroma at times.

I recently made a beer with So4 and due to a power outage the temp spiked to 69/70 during very active fermentation and while the resulting beer wasn’t horrible, it did have a slightly harsh aspect to it that would t have been there if it had stayed at 64/65 for the first few days.

US05 is much more forgiving at high temps. Be-256 is even an option IMHO. According to Fermentis it produces roughly the same amount of “total superior alcohols” with half the ester production. Its POF- and floccs really well too.

 

[j-bon3]

I am one of the S04 lovers/haters. I love it for clear beer with a neutral flavor- at 64 degrees or less (fermentation temperature). At 68 degrees, it gets estery (but not as weirdly as nottingham), and above that, it gets foul-ish in aroma with the flavor to follow.

I've had some bottles carb up within 7 days with S04, but I'd only fridge one or two, and keep the rest at 70 degrees for at least another week or two.

Yes I think I'll start doing tasters from around 10 days onward and feel it out like you say... Hope the batch isn't too bad though...

 

[j-bon3]

To me if So4 gets too warm it can get very lactic... almost a yogurt like aroma at times.

I recently made a beer with So4 and due to a power outage the temp spiked to 69/70 during very active fermentation and while the resulting beer wasn’t horrible, it did have a slightly harsh aspect to it that would t have been there if it had stayed at 64/65 for the first few days.

US05 is much more forgiving at high temps. Be-256 is even an option IMHO. According to Fermentis it produces roughly the same amount of “total superior alcohols” with half the ester production. Its POF- and floccs really well too.

Oh yes I think I'll be trying out a different yeast next time (can't be sure about s04 until a proper go), although by next time I should have my temp control sorted out. Hoping to do something that only requires primary but is clean and crisp, but not bitter (without having to larger of course)... Any ideas on that?

 

[j-bon3]

Not likely. The most accepted time frame for bottle conditioning is 3 weeks at 70 degrees. I have never tried a bottle at one week. At 2 weeks some are carbonated and some are not. ALL my beers have tasted better at 3 weeks or longer when bottle conditioned. Some of the bigger beers didn't get good carbonation for longer and some of them needed aging for many months to peak in flavor.

I hadn't tried brewing in a while and my wife just got me one of those partial mash kits which did give some rough time frames (but it makes sense to give it as much time and just taste every few days). Having said that it's mostly me drinking so quite a bit of bottle conditioning could happen before I have enough fridge space...

 

[kh54s10]

I try a bottle at 2 weeks conditioning (sometimes). I would say that only a little over half of them are properly carbonated at that time. ALL have tasted better at 3 weeks or longer. IMO, any bottles taster before 2 weeks will only tell you how things progress while conditioning. As finished beers, all of those tasted before 2 weeks are just beers that you cannot have when the beer is truly ready.

Oh yes I think I'll be trying out a different yeast next time (can't be sure about s04 until a proper go), although by next time I should have my temp control sorted out. Hoping to do something that only requires primary but is clean and crisp, but not bitter (without having to larger of course)... Any ideas on that?

Don't give up totally on S-04. I use it frequently. I might not have the discerning palate that others do, I like the yeast. But I do control the temperature.

For yeasts that you can do only primary - that to me would be ANY yeast. I have only done a secondary on my first beer 8+ years ago, and one or two others where I added something that would not fit in the primary vessel I was using.

You only need to lager if you are making a lager.

 

[Miraculix]

+1
For not giving up on 04. It is my favourite stout yeast. I actually even made really nice stouts with it without temperature control, maybe the dark malts covered up some tartness. It was really fruity in a really good way, matched the dark malts very well.

One thing you will learn to love is that 04 clears so quickly and really sticks to the bottom of the bottle. That is such a big plus.

 

[j-bon3]

Hey guys so this is my ale after 2 weeks bottle conditioning, not one of the greats but still super happy with my first beer... Thanks for all the comments and support!

 

[yowzers]

That's a good first effort. The fact that you already have a way to control temperatures is going to help you make good beer very quickly. Most ale yeasts are going to benefit somewhat to quite a bit by controlling the temp to 64-65 F the first week.

 

[brewbama]

Let it continue to bottle condition and it should be crystal clear. Try one each week until it’s ready.

 

[sicktght311]

I use s04 a lot, especially for NEIPAs and I will agree with everything above. It’s a great yeast, but it requires strict temperature control. I use it at 64 degrees through most of fermentation and then let it rise to 68 at the end just to finish up. I’m grain to glass in 7-9 days with s04 and burst carbonation

 

[j-bon3]

Let it continue to bottle condition and it should be crystal clear. Try one each week until it’s ready.

Only one per week could be tough... But tasting how the flavor changes over time is very interesting!

 

[j-bon3]

That's a good first effort. The fact that you already have a way to control temperatures is going to help you make good beer very quickly. Most ale yeasts are going to benefit somewhat to quite a bit by controlling the temp to 64-65 F the first week.

Oh yes i'm really looking forward to that temp control for my upcoming batch... looking at starting an Irish Red now already for St Patty's! Still have a few questions swirling around for that but i'll start a new thread to finalize that... Thanks for the encouragement though!!

 

[j-bon3]

I use s04 a lot, especially for NEIPAs and I will agree with everything above. It’s a great yeast, but it requires strict temperature control. I use it at 64 degrees through most of fermentation and then let it rise to 68 at the end just to finish up. I’m grain to glass in 7-9 days with s04 and burst carbonation

Woa that's so quick!! I need to get a few batches in a rotation and I think I can also start experimenting around a bit more.... And yes this S04 served me well... keen to give the 05 a try as well...

 

[sicktght311]

Most NEIPAs can be turned around really fast so long as fermentation is clean and vigorous and you are properly filtering out the suspended hop particles before they make their way to your keg. I ferment at 64 through the thermowell in my fermenter, not ambient. I usually brew on day one, dryhop day 2 or 3, dryhop again on day 4 or 5, cold crash 2 days after the last hop, then keg and carbonate. Its drink ready by day 8 or 9, but i find its perfect 3-4 days after kegging once everything finally settles. You're always bound to pick up some yeast during transfer even after cold crashing, so once that settles out its delicious

 

[wepeeler]

I use s04 a lot, especially for NEIPAs and I will agree with everything above. It’s a great yeast, but it requires strict temperature control. I use it at 64 degrees through most of fermentation and then let it rise to 68 at the end just to finish up. I’m grain to glass in 7-9 days with s04 and burst carbonation

I used it for my last neipa and ferm temp went up to 75. Had zero off flavors or harsh alcohol. I would guess maybe some off flavors are covered up by the amount of hops I used. Or they just aren't there. I can usually pick out off flavors immediately.

 

[j-bon3]

Most NEIPAs can be turned around really fast so long as fermentation is clean and vigorous and you are properly filtering out the suspended hop particles before they make their way to your keg. I ferment at 64 through the thermowell in my fermenter, not ambient. I usually brew on day one, dryhop day 2 or 3, dryhop again on day 4 or 5, cold crash 2 days after the last hop, then keg and carbonate. Its drink ready by day 8 or 9, but i find its perfect 3-4 days after kegging once everything finally settles. You're always bound to pick up some yeast during transfer even after cold crashing, so once that settles out its delicious

Sorry for the delayed reply work was crazy this past month, would love to have a look at your IPA recipe as i'm planning on getting a keg setup in a month or so. I figured it would serve me nicely as a go to for when I need to get something in my glass asap! Would you say dry hopping is crucial to brewing this way as I haven't tried it yet as I prefer easy and balanced to stronger hoppy, bitter, spicy and fruity flavours??

 

[kh54s10]

Sorry for the delayed reply work was crazy this past month, would love to have a look at your IPA recipe as i'm planning on getting a keg setup in a month or so. I figured it would serve me nicely as a go to for when I need to get something in my glass asap! Would you say dry hopping is crucial to brewing this way as I haven't tried it yet as I prefer easy and balanced to stronger hoppy, bitter, spicy and fruity flavours??

I would put off trying to brew a NEIPA for a while. They are very susceptible to oxidation. You should do closed transfers for those. Get your processes down on less intense recipes first.

I have yet to find a commercial one that I like. And since I don't have the equipment yet for closed transfers, I haven't tried to brew one.

 

[sicktght311]

Yeah honestly as recommended above, first get some time with kegging, closed transfers, and dryhopping under your belt before you go the NEIPA route. They are unforgiving when it comes to oxidation and you need to be extremely oxygen free from the minute you start fermentation to the minute it comes out of the tap, if you want to keep it juicy and hoppy. Dryhopping is a must with this style, as thats where the NEIPA flavor mostly comes from. Heavy late kettle additions in whirlpool, and heavy dryhopping with select hops.

Checklist for a successful NEIPA
1) Good yeast with fruity esters
2) Good dryhopping schedule (DH, DDH, or TDH)
3) Complete avoidance of oxygen ingress during dryhop, but most importantly as fermentation is ending. THe first dryhop is much less succeptible since the yeast will eat any oxygen you introduce
4) Cold crash under positive co2 pressure
5) transfer to keg in a completely closed co2 system. Absolutely no siphons, no bottling, no gravity transfers, no open kegs. CO2 at the top of the fermenter, out the racking arm, into the liquid port a co2 purged keg with the gas port vented into a bucket of sanitizer.
6) Purge the headspace a couple times after transfer
7) DRINK FRESH