P**SED OFF with Local HBS

[phendog]

Just received my new 15gal Spike Brewing System w/HERMS & 30A control panel and had my first opportunity to brew on it yesterday. Went to the local Home Brew USA, Janaf Center Norfolk VA, the day before and filled my grain bill = 23lbs for a 10gal batch of IPA:
- 85% 2Row
- 5% Crystal 60
- 5% Flaked Wheat
- 5% Flaked Oats
- 1/2lb Rice Hauls

For the past 2 years, my numbers have been spot on with what Beersmith outputs. Historically, my efficiency has been ~75%. With the new Spike Systems I anticipated a 5 - 8% increase.

On this recipe, Beersmith said my pre boil OG was going to be 1.047 but I only hit 1.033. My water to grain ratio was 1.5quarts p/lb and I held a constant 150deg recirculating mash for 75mins. Luckily, I had some DME on hand and was only 4 points off on my post boil.

NEVER again. Monster Mill or Barley Crusher on the way!!!

 

[waldoar15]

A Barley crusher was the first item I bought back when I first went AG. A refractometer was the 2nd.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Soooo, you brewed on a completely new system and your low efficiency is automatically the fault of your LHBS?

Maybe something went wrong on brew day that isn't as obvious? Maybe channeling? Maybe something else...

 

[Nagorg]

Are you sure you have BeerSmith dialed in for your new system? Specifically MLT dead-space and boil-off rate? Being off on those will directly affect your numbers... And new equipment requires a new equipment profile.

 

[Morrey]

Assuming the LHBS milled the grains for you? If so, having your own mill will allow you to control the crush for best consistency.

As previous responses indicate, a brand new system needs some time to get it dialed in and figured out. Efficiency numbers from your old system compared to the new system would most likely be different.

 

[eric19312]

LOL that is a lot of kit for not having invested in your own grain mill by now.

I'm with the others here...dialing in a news system and blame the one thing you presumably didn't change seems kinda odd.

For next batch you may want to collect some more data to see if your issue is on the conversion side or on the lautering side.

Best way to monitor conversion is to take gravity samples every 15 min or so during the mash. Use a refractometer and you only need a couple drops. You will be looking for your mash to hit 100% conversion...calculate it yourself or use this table:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...ng_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency
Doing that I learned that even though I am doing full recirculation during my mash I get efficiency bump if I give it a good stir it about 30 min into the mash. This worked better for me than the typical advice which will always be to focus on grain crush. The BIAB guys on here always talk about crushing nearly to flour to improve efficiency and may work fine for them but for me it just creates new problems (tendency to slow recirc/stuck sparge even with decent load of rice hulls).

If you are reaching or at least close to 100% conversion but still seeing low mash efficiency then your issue is lautering. Again my system I find a slower lautering gives me improved efficiency. I take 20 gallons to my brew kettle and if I sparge less than an hour to get there I will take an efficiency hit. On a modest grain bill I might just increase the bill 5% and take the hit to save 30 min but on a bigger bill my mash tun volume is limiting factor so I just have to go slow.

If its neither conversion nor lauter you are pretty much down to boil off rate. Again measurements and notes are your friend.

Anyway congratulations on the new system that looks like its going to be a lot of fun. Get a mill and a refractometer and get that thing dialed in. Happy Brewing!

 

[The_Bishop]

#1 - You brewed on a new system. You haven't gotten your process down, or learned the new system. This is not the LHBS's fault. There are tons of possibilities that could explain your problem, from volumes being off to grain bed channeling or possibly doughballs from a poor grain in.

#2 - You bought a system, but don't have your own grain mill? Also: The Barley crusher is a POS. Steer clear of it.

 

[MaxStout]

Looks like too may variables to be certain the source of the low efficiency. Could be any number of things above posters mentioned.

Get a mill. Avoid the Barley Crusher. See this thread discussing their customer service--lack, thereof. Get a Monster Mill, or Cereal Killer. The latter is $100, with hopper.

 

[mongoose33]

If you really want a Barley Crusher, I'll sell you mine for $75.

Look very carefully at all the different mill options. Read the reviews, esp. here on HBT. If I were doing it again, in that price range, I'd buy a Cereal Killer.

**********

If the Monster Mill is how you roll, a suggestion would be to get the best mill you can for your money, then motorize later if you can't afford it now. I bought one at the end of 2017; it's the 3-roller model. Mounted to a cart, attached to an All American Aleworks motor:

Now you know why I have a Barley Crusher for sale.

 

[phendog]

To be clear, I am talking about 12 point miss on pre-boil gravity. 1.035 "vs" 1.047.
So because I have a new system and have not "dialed it in" yet, I lost 30% efficiency? Not buying it. Yes,... I'm blaming the crush or the weight of the grain bill was off. This isn't rocket science folks - 5% - 8% deviation from my old system I would buy, but not a 30% swing. Mash temp was correct, pre and post volumes were correct and I conducted a test boil for boil off rate prior to brew day, but that would not impact pre boil gravity and dont think I'm getting channeling with this recirc system.

 

[mongoose33]

To be clear, I am talking about 12 point miss on pre-boil gravity. 1.035 "vs" 1.047.
So because I have a new system and have not "dialed it in" yet, I lost 30% efficiency? Not buying it. Yes,... I'm blaming the crush or the weight of the grain bill was off. This isn't rocket science folks - 5% - 8% deviation from my old system I would buy, but not a 30% swing. Mash temp was correct, pre and post volumes were correct and I conducted a test boil for boil off rate prior to brew day, but that would not impact pre boil gravity and dont think I'm getting channeling with this recirc system.

Oh, I think you've likely hit the nail on the head. Before buying a new mill, perhaps you might find someone locally who has a mill through which you can double-crush your grain bill, then try it again. If it works well, then it's the LHBS.

FWIW, my son gets his grain crushed at his LHBS. He literally has intact kernels in his grist. He asked them to double-crush it, but they refused, giving some gobbledygook about needing to have a middle ground mill gap, avoiding stuck mashes and sparges, etc. All he wanted was a double crush, and they refused.

BTW, that MM3 with a motor attached? Hands-free 2-minute crushing of grain.

 

[phendog]

Thanks for the links and the advice. Leaning towards the Monster Mill

 

[FunkedOut]

Take a minute (or a few hours) to play with your new rig. (Nice setup, btw)
I’m a BIAB guy and a new kettle took me 3 brews to dial in on BS.

Any wort that is left behind in the mash tun dead space as well as hoses/pumps is wort that you have to make, that will be lost and show as lower efficiency.
Thus means you’re making more wort now so you need more grist than before.

I can’t offer any advice with lautering as I’ve never done it.

Logic would dictate that if you’ve grown accustomed to your shop’s mill and they’ve never shorted you on the grain bill, it’d be too much of a coincidence for them to change now exactly when you changed your rig.

Good luck and enjoy dialing it in!

 

[Morrey]

Thanks for the links and the advice. Leaning towards the Monster Mill

You'll have multiple members of HBT give a thumbs up if you select a Monster Mill. With a quality mill, you'll have total control of your grind which in turn should lead you to efficiency consistency. Plus you made a good point in that your grain weights may have been off from the LHBS. Not that they are cheating you on purpose, but it would be easy for the weights to have been off. If you run up some typical efficiency numbers, look how much lower you'd be if your base malt weight was off by one pound on the low side.

 

[mongoose33]

Take a minute (or a few hours) to play with your new rig. (Nice setup, btw)
I’m a BIAB guy and a new kettle took me 3 brews to dial in on BS.

Any wort that is left behind in the mash tun dead space as well as hoses/pumps is wort that you have to make, that will be lost and show as lower efficiency.
Thus means you’re making more wort now so you need more grist than before.

I can’t offer any advice with lautering as I’ve never done it.

Logic would dictate that if you’ve grown accustomed to your shop’s mill and they’ve never shorted you on the grain bill, it’d be too much of a coincidence for them to change now exactly when you changed your rig.

Good luck and enjoy dialing it in!

There's a lot of wisdom here ^.

When I switched over to BIAB from a mash tun, it took me...well, several tries before I could figure out how to dial in mash temps (I didn't account for the Hellfire burner continuing to add heat to the kettle, which I later included).

I'm trying to do Low Oxygen brewing. It's like I've regressed back to my first brew ever. Mistakes, forgetting things...and now I have a pump and that makes it all the more...interesting.

Brewed today; several goofs, none of them beer-threatening, but I was better in doing some things. It's just learning the new system.

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the links and the advice. Leaning towards the Monster Mill

You'll have multiple members of HBT give a thumbs up if you select a Monster Mill. With a quality mill, you'll have total control of your grind which in turn should lead you to efficiency consistency. Plus you made a good point in that your grain weights may have been off from the LHBS. Not that they are cheating you on purpose, but it would be easy for the weights to have been off. If you run up some typical efficiency numbers, look how much lower you'd be if your base malt weight was off by one pound on the low side.

@Morrey is like a drug pusher. First he hooked me with how convenient a MM3 is. Then he reeled me in with the quality of the crush. I finally succumbed with the low-speed crushing an Aleworks motor allows. He sent pics showing his setup. "Here, try one, what's the worst that can happen?"

I know that many people have budget constraints, and I will never make light of that. I'm an empty-nester, and can do some things now that 20 years ago would have been financially impossible. But these mills are unsurpassed, IMO. I always prefer to get high quality; rarely have I regretted that.

There are many ways to motorize that mill. A 1/2" Harbor Freight drill is one approach. There are a couple of motor options out there, including the one I chose.

Either way, good luck, report back on your choices so we can learn why you did what you did. And look out for Morrey.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Buy yourself a mill. Mine was sitting here in a box for months waiting for me to finish building the rest of my elec. BIAB rig. A friend who brews told me early on that a solid grain mill and controlling your crush is absolutely critical to achieving consistency so it was the first thing I bought. I really don't understand the corona mill crowd, other than that they don't mind a lot of flour in their grist. To me that's not really a controlled crush, just consistently pulverized grain. Incidentally, I have a cereal killer set to the tightest gap and consistently hit 75% efficiency. After a dozen successful batches I wouldn't dare brew without it.

 

[Morrey]

Lordy, I should be on Monster Mills' payroll! Seriously, I have had 3 mills and this MM3 is w/o doubt the one to buy if you need a great mill.

 

[Punx Clever]

Just received my new 15gal Spike Brewing System w/HERMS & 30A control panel and had my first opportunity to brew on it yesterday. Went to the local Home Brew USA, Janaf Center Norfolk VA, the day before and filled my grain bill = 23lbs for a 10gal batch of IPA:
- 85% 2Row
- 5% Crystal 60
- 5% Flaked Wheat
- 5% Flaked Oats
- 1/2lb Rice Hauls

For the past 2 years, my numbers have been spot on with what Beersmith outputs. Historically, my efficiency has been ~75%. With the new Spike Systems I anticipated a 5 - 8% increase.

On this recipe, Beersmith said my pre boil OG was going to be 1.047 but I only hit 1.033. My water to grain ratio was 1.5quarts p/lb and I held a constant 150deg recirculating mash for 75mins. Luckily, I had some DME on hand and was only 4 points off on my post boil.

NEVER again. Monster Mill or Barley Crusher on the way!!!

HomeBrew USA has been going downhill for the past year or so (out of stock on 2-row, us-05, etc)... I've heard something about the owner being diagnosed with cancer... I've switched to Brew and Bottle in Newport News.

That being said... I agree with the others:
1) brand new system and you blame poor efficiency on the milling?
2) you bought a spike system but don't mill your own yet?

 

[madscientist451]

Get a mill, its well worth it. Buy your base malts by the sack, your specialty malts in 5 or 10 lb lots from on line suppliers. Then, if anything goes wrong, you'll know who to blame.

 

[NewBrewDog]

I like my Barley Crusher. It was my first new piece of brewing equipment. It took me two batches of extract brewing to get bored and start all grain. Two all grain batches later I had ordered my mill and started buying grain in bulk.

For some reason the first time I went up to 10 gal batches I was way low on my OG. I never figured out why. I think with new equipment it’s easy to overlook or forget things that become habit and you take for granted.

 

[whovous]

I like my Barley Crusher. It was my first new piece of brewing equipment. It took me two batches of extract brewing to get bored and start all grain. Two all grain batches later I had ordered my mill and started buying grain in bulk.

For some reason the first time I went up to 10 gal batches I was way low on my OG. I never figured out why. I think with new equipment it’s easy to overlook or forget things that become habit and you take for granted.

I like my Barley Crusher too, but if I'd invested all that money in that Spike system, I suspect I'd pony up for the Monster mill as well.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I found after switching to my recirculating herms setup that a courser crush and conditioning the grain actually raised my efficiency and allowed the mash to flow much better

 

[kh54s10]

I would guess that the crush from the LHBS might have been part of the problem, but you have not dialed in the new system, also a contributing factor. You apparently did not inspect the grind. (your fault, not the LHBS). So don't say that it is the LHBS! Get a mill, if not because of the LHBS, it will make your brews consistent. Consistent good, mediocre or bad, depending on......

 

[Steveruch]

Have you had your LHBS mill your grains for batches done on your previous setup? If so and you got better efficiency then it's not their fault.

 

[wyowolf]

I went from always hitting or exceeding my numbers to never meeting them after i got my Colorado Brew Systems unit. I just got a grain mill and am going to crush it pretty fine. I did fix the mesh basket issue, and that did help some as well...

 

[Horseflesh]

For complete conversion I have to do a 90 min mash on my CBS, which I assume is due to my LHBS crush. Good luck with your new mill!