Oxygen infusion confusion

[mmead]

I hear a big high gravity beer needs daily O2 for a couple of weeks after primary fermentation. Then I hear about those who are using secondary fermenters to use caution siphoning to avoid getting 02 bubbles into the wort. Please straighten me out. I do 9% ales.

 

[Trokair]

You want O2 in before you begin fermentation because the yeast need it to grow. You DON'T want O2 after fermentation is going or you will oxodize the beer and make it taste like cardboard. That includes siphoning to a "secondary" which is actually mis-labeled and should be called a brite tank as fermentation doesn't occur in it.

Basically if you are getting proper fermentation and good tasting beer from your 9% ales you are already doing it right. Congrats

 

[Golddiggie]

I hear a big high gravity beer needs daily O2 for a couple of weeks after primary fermentation. Then I hear about those who are using secondary fermenters to use caution siphoning to avoid getting 02 bubbles into the wort. Please straighten me out. I do 9% ales.

Where did you hear all that?? While you DO need to use more O2 for bigger brews (above 8% IMO/IME) you don't want to do it daily for a couple of weeks. Most often, you hit it with more O2 12-18 hours after fermentation starts, and that's about it. SOME yeast, like WLP099 wants more O2 IF you're going above 16% ABV in a batch.

IF you're using a pure O2 infusion system, and have a flow meter regulator on your tank, then you can figure out the approximate ppm of O2 in the wort. OR get an actual dissolved oxygen meter and take actual readings.

For my bigger brews, I give them 1.5-2Lpm of O2 for 90-120 seconds the first time (just before pitching my starter slurry). Then 1-1.5LpM for 30-90 seconds 12-18 hours later. This is through an O2 stone (William's Brewing Supply's stone on the stainless wand).

I also seriously avoid any potential oxidation steps when transferring. I'm able to easily do this since I started fermenting (and aging) in adapted sanke kegs. I have a gas ball lock post on the kegs, with liquid posts fitted to TC caps that go over the valve opening on the kegs. I simply seal the keg, put some CO2 in there (vent some), then fill the serving kegs (3 gallon corny kegs) via their liquid post. The serving kegs are also purged of air before filling, having a blanket of CO2 in the bottom. With no tubing going into the keg, that gets touched, there's far less chance of contamination, infection, or oxidation.

 

[Trokair]

SOME yeast, like WLP099 wants more O2 IF you're going above 16% ABV in a batch.

What beer are you brewing that is 16%????

And how long did you age it? I'd love to try something that large

 

[Golddiggie]

I've made a 12% wee heavy, that's been aging for several months (made/brewed December 17, 2011) so far. That's been my biggest brew to date. But, next weekend (27th/28th) I'll be brewing my TripSix recipe, that could be on target for 17% or better. I'll be giving it more nutrient in the boil, more O2 before pitching the starter slurry, and then hitting it with more O2 during the first few days it ferments. I've planned to let it run about 3 months in primary. Then age it with wood (haven't decided 100% which wood I'll use but it's going to be either oak or cherry) for 2-4 months before sampling and deciding what to do next. IF it's getting closer to being finished, at that point (looking at about 6-8 months from start) I'll transfer to two 2.5 gallon corny kegs and let it rest there for a while. I'll carbonate it so that it's on tap come the holiday season next year. I'll probably start that process a month ahead of when I want to serve/drink it. That way, I KNOW it will be fully carbonated to the level I want. I'm planning to carbonate it towards the lower end of the scale (~1.6 CO2 volumes). I might even carbonate it in the basement (in the upper 50's right now) with one of my 'spare' regulators and CO2 tanks/bottles.

My only concern is that the yeast attenuates too far and the brew becomes too thin. I've already adjusted my mash temp to try and compensate for the yeast and how it performs. Just hope it's enough.

 

[Trokair]

I see the update that you made to the recipe and it looks like quite a project. I'm actually going to be brewing my first Barleywine in the spring so it can be ready for the fall. That will be my largest beer yet although I have been eyeing a Wee Heavy as well. Maybe I'll switch. I've got 2 months to decide.

It looks like you are adding the #4 of honey after the boil. Is that the taste you are shooting for? Why not add it like a late addition extract to the boil? I wouldn't think you could trust the honey to be sterile.

 

[Golddiggie]

The honey addition is for two things. Some flavor (maybe) and to boost the OG of the batch.

I NEVER boil honey. I've made mead without heating the honey above 100-110F and they've come out great. I've also added honey to my wee heavy recipe/batch and it has had zero issues (added it as fermentation was slowing way down).

The thoughts that you need honey to be sterile is a carry-over from the panic years. I'll sanitize the container used to measure it, and any tools used on it, but that's about it.

BTW, I'm using RAW honey here. At most, it's been filtered (cold) a bit to remove bee parts. Otherwise, it's as pure/untouched as you can get without having your own bee hives. That's something I've thought about doing before, and might once I get my own house (and have the land to do it).

 

[mmead]

So is it basically, the higher the gravity, the longer the yeast must perform and they will need infusions of O2 for as long as they are working. A certain planned attenuation and FG is sought, and when it arrives, stop the oxygen-- a point that ought to arrive in no more than a .....week? Is that roughly it?

 

[Golddiggie]

So is it basically, the higher the gravity, the longer the yeast must perform and they will need infusions of O2 for as long as they are working. A certain planned attenuation and FG is sought, and when it arrives, stop the oxygen-- a point that ought to arrive in no more than a .....week? Is that roughly it?

No... Infuse with pure O2 before pitching the yeast to the needed levels for the yeast early on. Then, for bigger beers, once more at 12-18 HOURS from pitching.

White Labs 099 is different in how it performs, and needs O2...

"Aerate very heavily, 4 times as much as with a normal gravity beer. Less oxygen dissolves into solution at high gravity. Aerate intermittently during first 5 days of fermentation (30sec-1min)."

That's for HIGH ABV batches, such as over 16%.

I would NOT do that with any other strain. Every other strain gets O2 before pitch, and then no more than 18 hours from pitch for the second (and final) O2 infusion.

 

[F250]

The honey addition is for two things. Some flavor (maybe) and to boost the OG of the batch.

I NEVER boil honey. I've made mead without heating the honey above 100-110F and they've come out great. I've also added honey to my wee heavy recipe/batch and it has had zero issues (added it as fermentation was slowing way down).

The thoughts that you need honey to be sterile is a carry-over from the panic years. I'll sanitize the container used to measure it, and any tools used on it, but that's about it.

BTW, I'm using RAW honey here. At most, it's been filtered (cold) a bit to remove bee parts. Otherwise, it's as pure/untouched as you can get without having your own bee hives. That's something I've thought about doing before, and might once I get my own house (and have the land to do it).

Doesn't honey have some antibacterial properties?



Rick

 

[Golddiggie]

Doesn't honey have some antibacterial properties?



Rick

Yup. I've personally used it to pull infections out (infected toes mostly) before. Garlic kills infections too, but it can easily burn you (literally). I had a blister from using too much (or too much, too strong) garlic before.

Remember, they've found honey in tombs (thousands of years old) that was perfectly usable. It was more concentrated, since more water had left it. But it had NOT spoiled or gone bad in any way.

 

[F250]

Yup. I've personally used it to pull infections out (infected toes mostly) before. Garlic kills infections too, but it can easily burn you (literally). I had a blister from using too much (or too much, too strong) garlic before.

Remember, they've found honey in tombs (thousands of years old) that was perfectly usable. It was more concentrated, since more water had left it. But it had NOT spoiled or gone bad in any way.

Yes, I seem to remember reading about honey found in Egypt I believe that was quite old yet still edible. Also, IIRC, the Romans used honey on wounds to fight infection.



Rick