Oxidation Risk During Sparging?

[doug293cz]

Ok folks you can talk about generalized groups of people, as long as you are respectful (you can disagree and still be respectful) but targeting individual posters in a denigrating way is a no-no. Many posts have been deleted (most were responses to offending posts.) Please don't make me have to clean up this thread again, or it may get closed.

Also, moving thread to LoDo forum.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[GHBWNY]

That is basically my experience. LoDo definitely makes a difference. I enjoyed the process - I like following strict processes and meeting or exceeding guidelines - but I just didn't like the beer as much (even though technically it's probably better beer).

"LODO makes a difference."

"I enjoyed the process."

"I like following strict processes..."

"Technically it's probably better beer."

"I just didn't like the beer as much."


So, LODO is a great process. It's just the doggone beer that's the problem!!!

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Boiling deoxygenates the wort I am no organic chemist but I would imagine that the reactions which require oxygen molecules that bond to compounds imparting flavor, could be impacted as oxygen leaves the wort through the boiling process. I’m only guessing but likely through the break if ionic of hydrogen bonds? Again. I’m no professional and purely speculating from what I learned in Orgo101.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Boiling deoxygenates the wort I am no organic chemist but I would imagine that the reactions which require oxygen molecules that bond to compounds imparting flavor, could be impacted as oxygen leaves the wort through the boiling process. I’m only guessing but likely through the break if ionic of hydrogen bonds? Again. I’m no professional and purely speculating from what I learned in Orgo101.

Boiling (or any other means of scavenging oxygen) doesn't reverse oxidation.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

So, LODO is a great process. It's just the doggone beer that's the problem!!!

Only to my tastes. I can see that others would prefer it.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Boiling (or any other means of scavenging oxygen) doesn't reverse oxidation.

That’s why I prefaced not being an organic chemist. But, wouldn’t it reduce the chances of oxidation by lowering oxygen content of the wort?

 

[RPh_Guy]

That’s why I prefaced not being an organic chemist. But, wouldn’t it reduce the chances of oxidation by lowering oxygen content of the wort?

Yes, low-oxygen brewing is accomplished by eliminating oxygen throughout the brewing and packaging process.
We remove oxygen from the strike water either through boiling or using yeast.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

So do you boil your sparge water before using it also

 

[RPh_Guy]

No sparge. Less oxygen.

 

[Boden]

After reading this thread from the start I have some thoughts.
(I have some* experience in complex chemistry)

Warning: Stream of consciousness ahead.

There’s no such thing as best, only preference exists.

That said

Reducing oxygen from all water used will have some effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules. Good or bad... depends on what you want to accomplish.

You could go so far as to mill the grains in a argon jacketed mill directly into degassed H2O.

You could roast the grains in a oxygen free oven. That would change some of the chemistry.


(Below is not about oxygen but in the same realm of modifying/ retaining flavors/ smells)

Keeping the “Boil” temp between 170-185F would help keep some of the more temperature sensitive flavonoids from evaporating away. But you might want those to go away... so depends.

Using a cool condenser plate over the mash and boil to capture and reintroduce aromatics would help keep flavors in the brew. But you might want those to go away... so depends.

Seems like I’m going to have to simultaneously brew (insert large number here) beers simultaneously in the lab only changing one variable for each recipe.
( Not going to happen. There are millions of variables possible )

Wait a moment... like all great complex chemistry equations the answer must be... It depends on just how far down the minutia hole you have time and money to go.



*= a lot

 

[Gnomebrewer]

After reading this thread from the start I have some thoughts.
(I have some* experience in complex chemistry)

Warning: Stream of consciousness ahead.

There’s no such thing as best, only preference exists.

That said

Reducing oxygen from all water used will have some effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules. Good or bad... depends on what you want to accomplish.

You could go so far as to mill the grains in a argon jacketed mill directly into degassed H2O.

You could roast the grains in a oxygen free oven. That would change some of the chemistry.


(Below is not about oxygen but in the same realm of modifying/ retaining flavors/ smells)

Keeping the “Boil” temp between 170-185F would help keep some of the more temperature sensitive flavonoids from evaporating away. But you might want those to go away... so depends.

Using a cool condenser plate over the mash and boil to capture and reintroduce aromatics would help keep flavors in the brew. But you might want those to go away... so depends.

Seems like I’m going to have to simultaneously brew (insert large number here) beers simultaneously in the lab only changing one variable for each recipe.
( Not going to happen. There are millions of variables possible )

Wait a moment... like all great complex chemistry equations the answer must be... It depends on just how far down the minutia hole you have time and money to go.



*= a lot

Welcome to HBT. That's not the typical first post!

 

[Boden]

Welcome to HBT. That's not the typical first post!

Thank you, being that I am definitely not neurotypical that makes sense.

I could post something along the lines of
“help, I added yeast pre boil and it’s not doing anything in the fermenter!!!“
but I crossed that line ~40 years ago.

This subject (low oxygen brewing) seems quite interesting but I’m having a hard time figuring out what y’all are talking about. This thread seems like a game of move the goalposts.

Degassing the water pre introduction makes sense. It removes one potential reaction in the mash. Could be good or bad or irrelevant depending on what you want.

Parallel testing would answer if it mattered or not for one recipe.

Global statements would be pointless.

I like it here.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I could post something along the lines of
“help, I added yeast pre boil and it’s not doing anything in the fermenter!!!“

That made me laugh! You'd be surprised (or perhaps you wouldn't) what gets asked sometimes.

Unfortunately there was a lot of 'elitism' and 'belittling' from some of the low oxygen brewers (then termed LoDo) early on in it's development (and some now as well), which now means some conventional brewers react to any low oxygen brewers in the same way - assuming all of them are condescending - so it ends up being attack from both sides. It means that all (that I've seen anyway) LoDo threads end up quite heated. Rather than being seen as another technique that can be employed to get a different flavour profile, it's seen as a divisive issue. It's a shame, because it certainly does give a different beer to what is produced conventionally, whether better or worse (according to an individuals taste). As you said, oxygen in the water will have an effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules.

 

[Veets]

After reading this thread from the start I have some thoughts.
(I have some* experience in complex chemistry)

Warning: Stream of consciousness ahead.

There’s no such thing as best, only preference exists.

That said

Reducing oxygen from all water used will have some effect on flavonoids and other reactive molecules. Good or bad... depends on what you want to accomplish.

You could go so far as to mill the grains in a argon jacketed mill directly into degassed H2O.

You could roast the grains in a oxygen free oven. That would change some of the chemistry.


(Below is not about oxygen but in the same realm of modifying/ retaining flavors/ smells)

Keeping the “Boil” temp between 170-185F would help keep some of the more temperature sensitive flavonoids from evaporating away. But you might want those to go away... so depends.

Using a cool condenser plate over the mash and boil to capture and reintroduce aromatics would help keep flavors in the brew. But you might want those to go away... so depends.

Seems like I’m going to have to simultaneously brew (insert large number here) beers simultaneously in the lab only changing one variable for each recipe.
( Not going to happen. There are millions of variables possible )

Wait a moment... like all great complex chemistry equations the answer must be... It depends on just how far down the minutia hole you have time and money to go.

*= a lot

Now all you have to do is combine your chemistry knowledge with the brewing knowledge that's already out there.

Here's a list of references, if you're interested in reading:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

 

[Nubiwan]

Yah i get that people have preferences.

For example I hate sour beers. Every one I’ve ever had was an instant drain pour. But I don’t deny they exist because I don’t like them.

Off topic but yeah,sour beers, what's that about anyway? Someone tried a lager and lime (a popular drink in U.K. for years) and then years later, this!

Awful stuff, sour beer. I contend you can't like regular beer, if you regularly drink sours.

 

[Nubiwan]

Thank you, being that I am definitely not neurotypical that makes sense.

I could post something along the lines of
“help, I added yeast pre boil and it’s not doing anything in the fermenter!!!“
but I crossed that line ~40 years ago.

This subject (low oxygen brewing) seems quite interesting but I’m having a hard time figuring out what y’all are talking about. This thread seems like a game of move the goalposts.

Degassing the water pre introduction makes sense. It removes one potential reaction in the mash. Could be good or bad or irrelevant depending on what you want.

Parallel testing would answer if it mattered or not for one recipe.

Global statements would be pointless.

I like it here.

One word- Brulosphy. I'm gonna check see if they done any LODO XBmts. Or is it LoDO? LoDOL

 

[Nubiwan]

And here it is:

Good honest investigation of LODO v standard brewing techniques. I have used Brulosophy site experiments to verify much of my own brewing practices, and weed out some of the hocus pocus around what can be a pretty simple process.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/
Here is another discussion.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/the-infamous-low-oxygen-sensory-analysis/
I do BIAB. I also bottle. Not sure I can incorporate any useful LODO practices into my regime. I'd be intrigued to perhaps try pre boiling my water, but the LODO exponents seem to suggest you have to go the whole hog.

I might give my next batch a preboil for the hell of it, as the mash is surely where flavour is imparted from the grain. Can't hurt.

 

[Die_Beerery]

And here it is:

Good honest investigation of LODO v standard brewing techniques. I have used Brulosophy site experiments to verify much of my own brewing practices, and weed out some of the hocus pocus around what can be a pretty simple process.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

If you think thats a "good honest investigation"...... Yikes.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I do BIAB. I also bottle. Not sure I can incorporate any useful LODO practices into my regime. I'd be intrigued to perhaps try pre boiling my water, but the LODO exponents seem to suggest you have to go the whole hog.

I might give my next batch a preboil for the hell of it, as the mash is surely where flavour is imparted from the grain. Can't hurt.

If you're going to go to the effort of boiling your mash water, you might as well dose your mash with NaMETA (cheap and easy) and keep splashing to an absolute minimum to try to keep the benefits of the O2 free mash. IMO though, you'd be better off tightening up cold side processes first.

 

[w8av]

I want to add to this thread. I do not want to dis any of the LODO guys. They have a valid reason for what they are doing and I respect that.

However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.

I sparge here at home with a high tempertaure hose that lies on top of the mash bed and gravity feed sparge liquor into the mash tun that way (got the idea from a SABCO BrewMagic user. My efficiency numbers are good and I don't have any off flavors from hot side aeration (I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort). Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.

Just my $0.02 worth

 

[RPh_Guy]

They have a valid reason for what they are doing

Namely:

• Fresh grain flavors (only obtainable through low oxygen brewing)
• Unique flavors from biological acidification (only obtainable through low oxygen brewing)
• Longer flavor stability, including a more clean taste and more prominent hop flavor, if applicable.

I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort

... Well-accepted and well-studied brewing science as well as empirical results from a lot of brewers ranging from state-of-the-art macro breweries to us lowly home brewers clearly show that in fact oxygen does have a negative effect.

Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.

Oxidation damage occurs during the mash.

However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.

Very few small-scale US breweries produce low-oxygen beer. That's completely fine if that's the bar you set for yourself. However, there's no reason to twist the facts to suit that practice.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I personally asked Mitch Steele about HSA in a recent IPA webinar with him. Not only did he pick have me ask the question personally, he chose my question as the best and I walked away with 110lbs of hops.


This is just one of literal hundreds if not 1000's of people/prefessionals who don't discount HSA.

Here are also 3 blog articles discussing this..

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-and-hops/
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-malt-antioxidants/
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/flavour-stability-in-home-brewing/
This last on being guest written on my blog from this Gentleman:
https://ejdfoodsci.eu/phd-students/tuur-mertens/I think his credentials will speak for themselves.

"
Education background:
University Degree: Master Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2015-2016 – GPA: Cum Laude
University Degree: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2012-2015 – GPA: Cum Fructu
Academic Education: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2009-2012
Secondary Degree: Biotechnical Sciences – Scheppersinstitute Wetteren (Belgium) – 2003-2009 – GPA: Magna Cum Laude
Field of study for your BSc:
Bachelor of Science in Bioscience Engineering Technology
University of your BSc: Ghent University, Belgium

University 1 (employer):
Technische Universität Berlin, Germany "

 

[Nubiwan]

If you're going to go to the effort of boiling your mash water, you might as well dose your mash with NaMETA (cheap and easy) and keep splashing to an absolute minimum to try to keep the benefits of the O2 free mash. IMO though, you'd be better off tightening up cold side processes first.

Yes, it appears I may be "pissing into the wind", as they eloquently put it, by just preboiling, as I am limited to bottles, so cannot spund. Not sure if any steps I can take beyond reducing any agitation from the kettle into my fermentor. Bottling is simply another oxygen infusion for me.

Interesting to read that LODO beers don't travel very well.

 

[Nubiwan]

If you think thats a "good honest investigation"...... Yikes.

Why so? It's 2 independent reviews of LODO versus regular oxygenated beer, that rather imply - to me at least - that there is much merit in LODO process. That the tester felt his LODO process might have been flawed in the first experiment I listed, since the results in the second were so emphatic, and that his other anecdotal experience with LODO process has also been positive.

So why, is that not good? You suggesting LODO threads on HBT offer more mature, independent opinion? It's the reason I went to Brulosophy into the first instance.

 

[Nubiwan]

I personally asked Mitch Steele about HSA in a recent IPA webinar with him. Not only did he pick have me ask the question personally, he chose my question as the best and I walked away with 110lbs of hops.


This is just one of literal hundreds if not 1000's of people/prefessionals who don't discount HSA.

Here are also 3 blog articles discussing this..

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-and-hops/
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/low-oxygen-brewing-malt-antioxidants/
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/flavour-stability-in-home-brewing/
This last on being guest written on my blog from this Gentleman:
https://ejdfoodsci.eu/phd-students/tuur-mertens/I think his credentials will speak for themselves.

"
Education background:
University Degree: Master Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2015-2016 – GPA: Cum Laude
University Degree: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering Technology (Food Industry) – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2012-2015 – GPA: Cum Fructu
Academic Education: Bachelor Of Science In Bioscience Engineering – University Of Ghent (Belgium) – 2009-2012
Secondary Degree: Biotechnical Sciences – Scheppersinstitute Wetteren (Belgium) – 2003-2009 – GPA: Magna Cum Laude
Field of study for your BSc:
Bachelor of Science in Bioscience Engineering Technology
University of your BSc: Ghent University, Belgium

University 1 (employer):
Technische Universität Berlin, Germany "

Dont mean to derail the topic, but Interesting quote about the crystal in IPA's. What does he substitute crystal with in his IPA, I wonder? Anyone care to suggest? PM me to keep it off topic if you like.

 

[effeffe]

I want to add to this thread. I do not want to dis any of the LODO guys. They have a valid reason for what they are doing and I respect that.

However, most commercial breweries use a spray ball mounted a couple feet above the grain bed to sparge with and it works fine for them. The brewery I worked at for 6 years did that will no ill effects on the finished beer. As has been mentioned, the time you really need to worry about O2 is post fermentation and during packaging.

I sparge here at home with a high tempertaure hose that lies on top of the mash bed and gravity feed sparge liquor into the mash tun that way (got the idea from a SABCO BrewMagic user. My efficiency numbers are good and I don't have any off flavors from hot side aeration (I have seen numerous presentations on HSA and just about everyone agrees that hot side aeration doesn't really effect the wort). Besides, you are going to boil the wort anyway which will drive off any disolved O2.

Just my $0.02 worth

It's not much about introducing off-flavors but rather losing existing ones, and that's not something I can detect, unless I try the same recipe avoiding hot-side oxidation.

Detecting the absence of a flavor is impossible if one does not have that specific flavor in mind to begin with, and the way that flavor can be expressed though a specific process.

(besides, I wouldn't use "most commercial breweries" as a good reference if we're talking about craft breweries, but that's just me, and it probably depends on the geographical area anyway)

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am limited to bottles, so cannot spund.

FYI you can spund in bottles, and spunding is not an absolute requirement, even for bottling, just a big help.

Not sure if any steps I can take beyond reducing any agitation from the kettle into my fermentor.

Check out the low oxygen brewing website. The basic steps when mashing are to deoxygenate strike water, add water to grain from below (underlet), use active oxygen scavengers (sulfites + BrewTan B ± ascorbic acid), and use a mash cap.
The cold-side process also needs to be tight, of course.

Why so? It's 2 independent reviews of LODO versus regular oxygenated beer, that rather imply - to me at least - that there is much merit in LODO process. That the tester felt his LODO process might have been flawed in the first experiment I listed, since the results in the second were so emphatic, and that his other anecdotal experience with LODO process has also been positive.

So why, is that not good? You suggesting LODO threads on HBT offer more mature, independent opinion? It's the reason I went to Brulosophy into the first instance.

Brulosophy obviously did not execute the process correctly.

Quote from their write-up:
"I perceived a rather strong sulfur component in the LODO beer"

Beer should NOT have a strong sulfurous note and this fact completely invalidates their results. It's "experiments" like these that show how bad Brulosophy is at science.

Cheers

 

[Gnomebrewer]

"I perceived a rather strong sulfur component in the LODO beer"

Beer should NOT have a strong sulfurous note and this fact completely invalidates their results. It's "experiments" like these that show how bad Brulosophy is at science.

Cheers

Was that from back in the early LoDo days, when the recommended NaMeta dose was too high? I brewed my first LoDo beer (a pils) using that original recommended dose, and it ended up being a dumper (tasted like burnt match). I dropped the dose to about a third (IIRC) of what was recommended at the time and the following beers were WAY better. No sulphur.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Was that from back in the early LoDo days, when the recommended NaMeta dose was too high? I brewed my first LoDo beer (a pils) using that original recommended dose, and it ended up being a dumper (tasted like burnt match). I dropped the dose to about a third (IIRC) of what was recommended at the time and the following beers were WAY better. No sulphur.

Improper oxygenation of the beer is what causes this.

You must first oxygenate to expend all the sulfites, then you start at 0 and have to re-oxygenate the wort as normal. The dosage could be 10000ppm, you just have to oxygenate to expel all the sulfites and then oxygenate the wort as normal.

If you dropped to 1/3 and things were fine, that means you were only oxygenating a 1/3 of the way you should have been.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Improper oxygenation of the beer is what causes this.

It's arguing semantics, but no, improper oxygenation didn't cause it. Too much sulfite caused it, more oxygen may have fixed it.