oxidation problems when dry hopping

[schematix]

I have read all about LODO brewing, which is mainly to keep the malt flavor and I do think it has merit. I was referencing a post about hop flavor dropping off, which again is different than a beer to the point of oxidation where the beer is noticeably darker and tastes bad. I keg in a closer co2 transfer but used to bottle with a bottling bucket and never had the problems described in the post. I don't think the OP was complaining about it not being award winning, just quality.

Oxidation can occur in various places in the process and has different effects.

I would contend there isn't much difference between 'award winning' and 'quality'. I've made some pretty tasty IPAs with tradition HB techniques. But the one thing they all had in common was the flavor rapidly deteriorated in the keg.

You can easily resolve this though by dry hopping during the late states of active fermentation (yeast will scavenge the O2 you introduce). Rack to the serving keg during active (restarted by adding priming sugar) fermentation. Seal it up and let it naturally carbonate. Monitor the pressure to ensure its not too high for the carbonation level you want. I guarantee you'll see changes in the longevity of the hops and it all has to do with reducing oxygen. In fact even if you're not dry hopping this is a really good technique to ensure low oxygen during packaging.

 

[whovous]

I've had that as well - tastes great in the bottling bucket, like crap out of the bottle/keg. Maybe it's the racking cane....

I just got a Catalyst fermenter that allows me to pull trub and yeast off the bottom without opening it, and it bottles off the bottom as well. I have an IPA that will be bottled tomorrow - I'll update the thread tomorrow and in a few weeks if I notice an improvement....

I used to use a bottle-filler, with the little rod that when pushed down, beer would come out. It always looked like it was oxygenating the beer, so I went back to using the clip. Not sure if that's the case...

I bottle from a Catalyst as well. I'd be interested to learn how you add and stir sugar prior to bottling.

 

[EricDP]

What does wet cardboard taste like? Is there a food-equivalent to compare? Sorry, I don't normally eat cardboard...

 

[shadar]

I must say that in almost every case I hear people coming up with complex reasons things didn't work, the answer is much simpler.

I don't do a single complex thing at all when I brew. Everything is ultra simple and I don't give two licks about oxygen. I just won 1 gold, silver and bronze in the last competition I entered and when I do blind beer tastings people tend to pick my beers as their favorites over much much fancier commercial beers. Really not saying this to brag but instead to emphasize that sweating the details tends to actually cause more problems than it fixes.

KISS, keep it simple stupid. Just brew a beer, ferment it, bottle/keg it, done. Stop messing with all this Internet forum complication you read on here all the time. If you are dry hopping try changing your method of dry hopping. It sounds like you have a much larger problem than oxidation if the beer is changing color and coming out horrible after a few weeks.

But as someone else said, the easiest test is to brew an identical beer and not dry hop it. If it doesn't have the same issue then your dry hopping method is to blame. If it has the same issue then you have a fundamental issue elsewhere.

 

[jekeane]

What does wet cardboard taste like? Is there a food-equivalent to compare? Sorry, I don't normally eat cardboard...

Tear off a corner or a cereal box and chew on it for 30 seconds. learning time over.

 

[schematix]

I don't do a single complex thing at all when I brew. Everything is ultra simple and I don't give two licks about oxygen. I just won 1 gold, silver and bronze in the last competition I entered and when I do blind beer tastings people tend to pick my beers as their favorites over much much fancier commercial beers. Really not saying this to brag but instead to emphasize that sweating the details tends to actually cause more problems than it fixes.

Winning in a competition doesn't say anything other than that a group of judges like your beer better than others that were submitted. If your competition is essentially doing the same high-oxygen process as you then i wouldn't expect significant differences in results.

I am a firm believer in the KISS method as well. That's why i dry hop with remaining extract and finish the fermentation in the serving keg. Same amount of effort, just applied in a slightly different sequence.

 

[fatherdan]

if you told me oxygen was going to make my beer have less ABV i'd be concerned....

im all for simple.

 

[schematix]

What does wet cardboard taste like? Is there a food-equivalent to compare? Sorry, I don't normally eat cardboard...

I don't know who came up with that description but i think it's an incredibly inaccurate way of describing oxidation.

Oxidation manifests itself as more of a dullness than a specific flavor.

 

[chudsonvt]

I think someone else mentioned it, but I really want to reiterate the importance of fresh hops.

I have brewed many IPAs and have had issues with the hop aroma and flavor fading very fast and even some scenarios where it was noticeably oxygenated after a short time. Obviously avoiding oxygen like the plague is needed. I drink my beer too quick to make it worth the extra effort of the whole LODO, but having my beer still taste great after a few weeks to a month is important. Many places that sell hops do not state their harvest season. However, I recently bought specifically 2016 hops and the resulting IPA has been noticeably better then all IPAs that I have brewed, to date. I have had a little aroma fade over the course of the past few weeks, but the bottle I opened last night still tasted great and its been just over a month since I kegged and force carbed.

 

[Stillraining]

Oxidation can occur in various places in the process and has different effects.

I would contend there isn't much difference between 'award winning' and 'quality'. I've made some pretty tasty IPAs with tradition HB techniques. But the one thing they all had in common was the flavor rapidly deteriorated in the keg.

You can easily resolve this though by dry hopping during the late states of active fermentation (yeast will scavenge the O2 you introduce). Rack to the serving keg during active (restarted by adding priming sugar) fermentation. Seal it up and let it naturally carbonate. Monitor the pressure to ensure its not too high for the carbonation level you want. I guarantee you'll see changes in the longevity of the hops and it all has to do with reducing oxygen. In fact even if you're not dry hopping this is a really good technique to ensure low oxygen during packaging.

You really need to stop using the term "Rack" unless you really are doing that....seems you tried to clarify to me that you actually dont do that but instead push transfer with Co2.
Rather that's been a previously fluid filled purged with Co2 or just a gas purge with CO2 you didn't specify, but I'm going to guess fluid as everything else is so anal....and if so its really not all that KISS now is it...so really which one is it that you do? Rack or Close transfer push? Please elaborate.

Also I never got my last question answered...You go to actually pretty great lengths to avoid oxygen and then you add oxygen for the fermentation? What difference does it make where the oxygen comes from rather that's agitating the wort prior to pitching or injecting it prior to pitching? Its still going to take the yeast the same amount of time to get going so the contact time is almost exactly the same...Actually measurably less with agitation method if you want to talk scientific specifics on the effectiveness of oxygenating by the two methods. Hence more oxidization by your method...I.E an oxygen stone.

Thanks! ... and I am looking forward to this experiment.

About the only thing we lack now is grinding and mashing our grains under Co2 purge.

I'm interested in helping the OP and others with an issue I dont seem to have...the only thing I can really put a finger on at this moment is the grain differences spoken about earlier with the NEIPA compared to a West Coast IPA...Besides skipping opening his bucket for a gravity reading as I previously suggested ..my next suggestion is to forgo those possible offending grains assumed to be more affected by oxidization and that might be discoloring your beer. Our/my beer is SMOOTH you dont need them.

 

[schematix]

You really need to stop using the term "Rack" unless you really are doing that....seems you tried to clarify to me that you actually dont do that but instead push transfer with Co2.
Rather that's been a previously fluid filled purged with Co2 or just a gas purge with CO2 you didn't specify, but I'm going to guess fluid as everything else is so anal....and if so its really not all that KISS now is it...so really which one is it that you do? Rack or Close transfer push? Please elaborate.

I use the terms interchangeably. I do a closed transfer via the closed loop fermentation process described in the link in my signature below.

Also I never got my last question answered...You go to actually pretty great lengths to avoid oxygen and then you add oxygen for the fermentation? What difference does it make where the oxygen comes from rather that's agitating the wort prior to pitching or injecting it prior to pitching? Its still going to take the yeast the same amount of time to get going so the contact time is almost exactly the same...Actually measurably less with agitation method if you want to talk scientific specifics on the effectiveness of oxygenating by the two methods. Hence more oxidization by your method...I.E an oxygen stone.

Great question. It's simply a matter of time and temperature. At the relatively cold temperature of fermentation the staling reactions are significantly slowed compared to mash temperatures. Also if you pitch active yeast and then oxygenate, the yeast will scavenge the O2 completely within a few hours.

About the only thing we lack now is grinding and mashing our grains under Co2 purge.

You can acheive something comparable by using malt conditioning and crushing immediately prior to usage, pre-boiling the mash water, immediately chilling to strike temp, using an oxygen scavenger such as sodium metabisulfate, mashing by slowly filling with water from below (pushes the air pockets up and out). The other trick is to use a "mash cap"... google it.

 

[TheHopfather]

@Stillraining - you should really read the LoDo PDF to see how it works. It is all about limiting oxygen at all stages, racking would be a CO2 push into a liquid purged keg.

LoDo was designed to replicate the steam purging of vessels used in big commercial breweries. The idea is to limit O2 pickup during all stages of brewing. Limiting O2 during the mash is supposed to help preserve malt flavors and aroma, when the technique was put out on the internet it was designed to be used in a Helles. That being said yeast still need oxygen during the growth phase. So the idea should be to pitch yeast and then oxygenate the wort. I forget where I saw it, but someone posted some research on the subject that shows the yeast will scavenge the added O2 in hours (might be the LoDo paper actually).

It is no secret that O2 is the enemy of beer, particularly hoppy beer. Going full LoDo may be extreme for most people, but you should be trying to limit O2 pickup on the cold side if nothing else. There is a reason commercial breweries spend so much money on low oxygen bottling lines.

 

[brew703]

I too bottle and I have never had an oxidation issue when bottling. I open the carboy two times, one to get a hydrometer reading around day 6 or 7 and one to add hops which are normally 2-3 oz (3 gal batches).

With that said, I did have oxidation issues with every NEIPA I brewed so I quit brewing that style until I can get a keg setup. Maybe with NEIPA's the massive dry hop amounts must have an effect and causing the oxidation.

 

[Stillraining]

OK Thanks for the clarifications...Brewing tomorrow ( I thought today was Saturday) I will keep you updated on my findings which will take 2 to 3 months for a fair comparison of both beers lasting properties. Don't know if I will get a O2 tank and stone by tomorrow but the other stuff is all ready at hand pretty much. Never had issues with yeast staring quickly using slurry so dont really think that one thing matters anyway.

 

[mrstone14]

I think someone else mentioned it, but I really want to reiterate the importance of fresh hops.

I have brewed many IPAs and have had issues with the hop aroma and flavor fading very fast and even some scenarios where it was noticeably oxygenated after a short time. Obviously avoiding oxygen like the plague is needed. I drink my beer too quick to make it worth the extra effort of the whole LODO, but having my beer still taste great after a few weeks to a month is important. Many places that sell hops do not state their harvest season. However, I recently bought specifically 2016 hops and the resulting IPA has been noticeably better then all IPAs that I have brewed, to date. I have had a little aroma fade over the course of the past few weeks, but the bottle I opened last night still tasted great and its been just over a month since I kegged and force carbed.

This was one of my suspicions too after my LHBS told me the are always on the hunt for breweries dumping their hops when they go out of business or similar methods of getting their hops, so who knows how old those suckers were. Just did my last batch with verified 2016 crop straight from Yakima Valley Hops, waiting to see how it turns out.

 

[Queequeg]

The aromatics that we love from late and dry hops are volatile and do not survive long. Stone's "enjoy by" series, with the date, is dated for that very reason. Hops subside...quickly... regardless of miniscule amounts of oxygen being present in a finished beer or not. This is no secret and you shouldn't have had to dig very deep to learn this.

If you keg and you're not drinking it very fast, you can always dry hop again.

When your IPA starts tasting like card board or soy sauce, then you've got oxygen problem.

It does happen so much quicker when oxidation is involved though, aroma can be wrecked without any noticeable cardboard flavors though.

Acid hydrolysis is other mechanism by which hop aroma is destroyed but that is much slower than oxidation.

If you are careful and introduce significant oxidation you can have a stable aroma for 6 weeks or so before I see a notable fall off.

If oxygen get in, the beer is have lost its aroma even before serving.

 

[Stillraining]

Yah I just dont find that...

I'm brewing at 10 am today and implementing as many of the Low O2 things as possible but our IPA's stay pretty darn fresh for 8 weeks then the nose does drop off like a hammer..but flavor and color are still good...color never changes flavor drops off with the nose but slower.
Like I said it will be 3 months for an update on this all...and if there is a noticeable lasting quality I will concede to the whole oxidization thing...but it not then all this is not worth the effort and monkeying around. And something else is affecting your beers.

FWIW I pre-crush and store my grains too so that is not the problem anyone is having with "quickly ruined" color changes or beer either IMO.

Anyway off to the races....Cheers!

 

[EricDP]

I don't know who came up with that description but i think it's an incredibly inaccurate way of describing oxidation.

Oxidation manifests itself as more of a dullness than a specific flavor.

OK, thanks. So the advice from jekeane to eat a cereal box won't help much then?

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

Winning in a competition doesn't say anything other than that a group of judges like your beer better than others that were submitted. If your competition is essentially doing the same high-oxygen process as you then i wouldn't expect significant differences in results.

I am a firm believer in the KISS method as well. That's why i dry hop with remaining extract and finish the fermentation in the serving keg. Same amount of effort, just applied in a slightly different sequence.

I mean this guy, really? You have never tasted the beers mentioned or my beers either but you have the nerve to knock them, even going so far to say that the competitions he won must have had a bunch of bad beers. You act like your gods gift to brewing, get over yourself. Everyone else is trying to help the OP figure out why his beers are SEVERLY oxidizing, which again is probably not due to HSA but something off in his process and your just complicating things. You must learn to walk before you run. I just won best in show for my DIPA but I'm sure it must be because it was going up against garbage beers or had unqualified judges. I hope you entered the NHC because you obviously make the best beers in the world and should win in a landslide.

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

I don't know who came up with that description but i think it's an incredibly inaccurate way of describing oxidation.

Oxidation manifests itself as more of a dullness than a specific flavor.

Oxidized
Oxidation is probably the most common problem with beer including commercial beers. If the wort is exposed to oxygen at temperatures above 80°F, the beer will sooner or later develop wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors, depending on which compounds were oxidized. See the discussion of oxygen and the wort in Chapter 6 - Yeast.
(John Palmer- How to Brew). Must be an idiot or new to brewing.

 

[day_trippr]

...

 

[Weezy]

It does happen so much quicker when oxidation is involved though, aroma can be wrecked without any noticeable cardboard flavors though.

Acid hydrolysis is other mechanism by which hop aroma is destroyed but that is much slower than oxidation.

If you are careful and introduce significant oxidation you can have a stable aroma for 6 weeks or so before I see a notable fall off.

If oxygen get in, the beer is have lost its aroma even before serving.

We're talking cold side here. Where is oxygen getting in? The polyphenols contributed by post boil hop oils is what we like and what is hampered by natural degradation and occasion. Where are we letting oxygen in post kegging???

I really appreciate that you guys are embracing to the benefits of LODO brewing, but oxidation is not the panacea of all brewing woes.

 

[schematix]

I mean this guy, really? You have never tasted the beers mentioned or my beers either but you have the nerve to knock them, even going so far to say that the competitions he won must have had a bunch of bad beers. You act like your gods gift to brewing, get over yourself. Everyone else is trying to help the OP figure out why his beers are SEVERLY oxidizing, which again is probably not due to HSA but something off in his process and your just complicating things. You must learn to walk before you run. I just won best in show for my DIPA but I'm sure it must be because it was going up against garbage beers or had unqualified judges. I hope you entered the NHC because you obviously make the best beers in the world and should win in a landslide.

I didn't knock his beers. He was essentially arguing that his methods were more than sufficient because he's won medals in competition. I don't believe that is a logically sound conclusion.

My comment was that just because you won a medal doesn't actually mean much because a competition is only a contest among those that participated. It doesn't say anything about the caliber of the participants, or by extension, the absolute quality of winning entries. It's entirely possible to win a gold metal in a competition with a 30 point beer.... do you think a beer scoring 30 in a competition is really a great beer?

 

[Stillraining]

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water.
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free.
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast.
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so.
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick).

OK so how stuffed up is the process if I didn't have the sodium meta bisulfate? ( Thought I did but could not find it) I did every thing else by you instructions so far.

 

[schematix]

OK so how stuffed up is the process if I didn't have the sodium meta bisulfate? ( Thought I did but could not find it) I did every thing else by you instructions so far.

The SMB is your insurance...potassium metabisulfate (campden tablets) can be subbed at lower doses.

Could you smell your mash?

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

I didn't knock his beers. He was essentially arguing that his methods were more than sufficient because he's won medals in competition. I don't believe that is a logically sound conclusion.

My comment was that just because you won a medal doesn't actually mean much because a competition is only a contest among those that participated. It doesn't say anything about the caliber of the participants, or by extension, the absolute quality of winning entries. It's entirely possible to win a gold metal in a competition with a 30 point beer.... do you think a beer scoring 30 in a competition is really a great beer?

That's making lots of assumptions, doubt he would place high with a 30. Did you read the original post, they are not complaining about not winning competitions, the beer was going from gold to brown. You obviously don't get it so I'm done with this.

 

[schematix]

That's making lots of assumptions, doubt he would place high with a 30. Did you read the original post, they are not complaining about not winning competitions, the beer was going from gold to brown. You obviously don't get it so I'm done with this.

Derp. The subject of the post in question was not directly in reference to the OP. We were talking about a related, but different post by someone else.

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

**** off schematix

 

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[Stillraining]

The SMB is your insurance...potassium metabisulfate (campden tablets) can be subbed at lower doses.

Could you smell your mash?

I had those...didn't know it would do the same. Yes I could smell it just fine. Well I might have to retract that as not 100% sure...I did not really try to smell it I only opened it twice to make sure the grains were covered mashing in and once again on 3 running's...There was 2 other mash tuns on either side so the smell could have been from them as well. Why?

 

[schematix]

I had those...didn't know it would do the same. Yes I could smell it just fine. Well I might have to retract that as not 100% sure...I did not really try to smell it I only opened it twice to make sure the grains were covered mashing in and once again on 3 running's...There was 2 other mash tuns on either side so the smell could have been from them as well. Why?

One of the best sensory identifiers to know that you've succeeded at a low oxygen mash is that it's odorless. For normal oxygen home brewers you know that mash smell very well, but in low oxygen its non-existent. The second is when you taste the unboiled wort sample you'll know you've done something different. It's unusually sweet, grainy and delicious. It's not unusual to drink the hydrometer sample and actually like it.

Always taste the unboiled wort sample in low oxygen brewing. It'll confirm everything for you. No need to triangle test anything. It's night and day obvious when you've succeeded.

 

[Stillraining]

I dont know if any of this LODO is helping the OP with Ideas on his discoloring issues with his beer or not but for him I say be open to everything till he figures it out. So I'm going to go ahead and ask you a couple more questions just so myself and or others can understand some of the nuance's better, tweaking this elaborate process to the home brew level.
I had read that article when it came out...I reread it last night. One thing that even the article was not clear on was multiple batch sparging.

So :
1) Is this process intended for multiple sparging processes.
2) Other then covering the top of the mash with a cap/sheat of oxygen impervious material are you not suppose to drain each sparge completely?
3) Because if you do your definitely nullifying the whole process.
4) And if you do your definitely going to be able to smell the grains in the resulting escaping steam from that grain bed, I dont care what science says otherwise.
5) Seem to me a floating sparge arm would need to be employed to constantly have a whetted cover of water or a grain free zone always on top of the grain bed. Much as you do in normal fly sparging, but in this case it would not be allowed to splash the water you so painstakingly devoided of said oxygen.
6) Thus batch sparging is not really an option with this method. At least not multiple times as I see it. As each sparge is basically draining that protection and then re-pushing induced oxygen back up out of the wort that we are supposed to be so carefully avoiding contact with. Considering the statements that damage is already done withing 30 sec to 1 min there is no way for myself or the OP to accomplish this.

Just seems that there are a lot of weak links in the chain for this to really work as described. To me it seems you go all the way or its counter productive.

 

[Queequeg]

We're talking cold side here. Where is oxygen getting in? The polyphenols contributed by post boil hop oils is what we like and what is hampered by natural degradation and occasion. Where are we letting oxygen in post kegging???

I really appreciate that you guys are embracing to the benefits of LODO brewing, but oxidation is not the panacea of all brewing woes.

I don't disagree that LODO is not a cure all, just that oxidation has by far the greatest impact of flavor stability especially in hoppy beers and that the levels of DO required are extremely low. Whilst other processes cause flavor instability they occur at a much slower rate, so much so that they don't usually manifest before the beer in completely drunk.

 

[Stillraining]

One of the best sensory identifiers to know that you've succeeded at a low oxygen mash is that it's odorless. For normal oxygen home brewers you know that mash smell very well, but in low oxygen its non-existent. The second is when you taste the unboiled wort sample you'll know you've done something different. It's unusually sweet, grainy and delicious. It's not unusual to drink the hydrometer sample and actually like it.

Always taste the unboiled wort sample in low oxygen brewing. It'll confirm everything for you. No need to triangle test anything. It's night and day obvious when you've succeeded.

Quoted you just to notify of above questions. Thanks

 

[schematix]

Sorry for the slow reply... painting and crown moulding project this weekend....

I dont know if any of this LODO is helping the OP with Ideas on his discoloring issues with his beer or not but for him I say be open to everything till he figures it out. So I'm going to go ahead and ask you a couple more questions just so myself and or others can understand some of the nuance's better, tweaking this elaborate process to the home brew level.
I had read that article when it came out...I reread it last night. One thing that even the article was not clear on was multiple batch sparging.

So :
1) Is this process intended for multiple sparging processes.
2) Other then covering the top of the mash with a cap/sheat of oxygen impervious material are you not suppose to drain each sparge completely?
3) Because if you do your definitely nullifying the whole process.
4) And if you do your definitely going to be able to smell the grains in the resulting escaping steam from that grain bed, I dont care what science says otherwise.
5) Seem to me a floating sparge arm would need to be employed to constantly have a whetted cover of water or a grain free zone always on top of the grain bed. Much as you do in normal fly sparging, but in this case it would not be allowed to splash the water you so painstakingly devoided of said oxygen.
6) Thus batch sparging is not really an option with this method. At least not multiple times as I see it. As each sparge is basically draining that protection and then re-pushing induced oxygen back up out of the wort that we are supposed to be so carefully avoiding contact with. Considering the statements that damage is already done withing 30 sec to 1 min there is no way for myself or the OP to accomplish this.

Just seems that there are a lot of weak links in the chain for this to really work as described. To me it seems you go all the way or its counter productive.

Yah batch sparging is no good here. The best is a full volume no-sparge mash. Second best would be a traditional fly sparge. The sparge water needs to be treated like the mash water too but a lower sulfite level is ok since it's not exposed as long.

And you are correct this is a weak link process. If you go through all the effort on the hot side to prevent oxidation, but then skip on the cold side, you are just wasting your time.

Limiting oxidation on the hot side will give you a better grain flavor, but your cold side i think is actually more important for long term stability and flavor. Even if you ignore all the HSA stuff you will notice an improvement in your beer from low oxygen cold side processes.

 

[Stillraining]

Sort of what I figured...thanks

Well I'm out, for now anyway..Not worth it to me.....hope the OP figures out his issue.
And again my advice to him and all others that are having this issue "if" this is only happening to the so called NEIPA style is to ....Quit brewing them. The lines are so blurred anymore with IPA's anyway what difference does it make. Its supper easy to make a smooth IPA with out the offending grains that are seeming to point to causing this issue.

Carry on!

 

[PearlJam]

Does the guys who have oxidation issues closely monitor and manage their mash ph?

I am also having this issue and in the process of trying to figure it out. The current issue I am investigating is mash ph due to the lipoxygenase enzyme which is apparently a key part of oxidation. If the ph is too high it appears that the enzyme are more active.

My tap water that I normally use is ph 8.0

 

[Hudini56]

Going back to the beginning of the post, that was my big thing. Water adjustments are huge imo. Or at least for my situation. I think my home brewing world flipped up side down when I started making water adjustments. I'm interested in lodo.. but start small! My first batch with water adjustments after a ward water test was a HUGE improvement. And I was having all the same issues as the OP.

My pH is 7.5.. with adjustments via salts I can get to 5.3 or so using bru n water calculator.. worth every bit of the money time and effort.

It seems to be a bit overlooked.

Hopefully the OP takes a bit of all the info in this thread and gets some improvements.. seemed to get a little side tracked with the lodo convo. Which is great, but I don't think it's the OP's issue at this point.

 

[HopHead73]

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water.
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free.
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast.
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so.
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick).

Reviving an old thread.
I have issues with oxidation of my heavily dry hopped ales.
Am going to move my first hop addition sooner so there is more active yeast to scrub out the O2.
But, I am also researching more about doing a pressurized transfer from carboy to keg with a 2nd dry hop addition in the keg and have found many mention adding sugar to get the remaining active yeast going to scrub out any O2 introduced with the 2nd dry hop addition.

Your method is more of what I'm looking for.
Wondering after around how many days of fermentation do you transfer to the keg with sugar added?
It's been years since I bottled, so I'm assuming about 12 days there should still be enough yeast to start back up again.

 

[schematix]

Reviving an old thread.
Wondering after around how many days of fermentation do you transfer to the keg with sugar added?
It's been years since I bottled, so I'm assuming about 12 days there should still be enough yeast to start back up again.

It all depends on when the beer is done fermenting. I'm usually done fermenting, dry hopping, and into the final serving keg in around 7 days for moderate strength ale. My temperature control and pitching is really good though.