oxidation problems when dry hopping

[raymarkson]

The last three beers that I dry hopped seemed to have oxidation issues. I am assuming it's oxidation because what happened to the beers seemed to fit the descriptions of the oxidation that I've read about. The hop flavor is gone and it is replaced by a flavor that my palette perceives as wet cardboard. The color has also gone from brilliant gold to a dull brown. It never looks or taste this way during bottling! After two weeks in the bottle, though, it starts changing. After being in the bottle for five weeks or more, the flavor only gets worse and color gets more brown.

I've noticed that this oxidation, if that is what it is, only happens when I dry hop my beer. So, I started thinking that it may be how I'm dry hopping that may be the problem. After reading some suggestions on other threads, I tried dry hopping near the end of active fermentation so that the yeast may be able to consume the oxygen that I am introducing during dry hopping- it did not help because the beer still became oxidized. Also, I do just dump the hop pellets into the primary. Would it be better to put the hops into a secondary and rack the beer on top of them?

I am also aware that the fact that I bottle my beer instead of kegging it could be causing the problem since the beer at bottling is exposed to oxygen no matter how careful I am (and I am very careful when bottling). However, there seem to be many people that I read about in the threads on this forum that do not have oxidation issues when bottling so maybe there is something that I am still doing wrong. I don't know.

I think that I have resolved to not make anymore dry hopped beers until I start kegging.

Have any of the more experienced people in this forum had this problem and then solved it by kegging?

 

[Hudini56]

I had issues even with kegging. But for me it came down to -

First dry hop when there is still some slight active ferm going on (I see you made that change)
Limit time that ferm is open. I pop my lid just enough to get the hops in. And make the addition as quickly as possible - no gravity readings, or a quick grab for a refractometer reading.
No secondary - no unnecessary transfers needed - especially with a ipa and dry hopping.
Dry hopping time - 4 days - 5 days max. (my last double dry hop was 3 days first hopping, 4 days second an into keg - total of 12 days from kettle to keg)

I drilled out my primary ferm lid to hold a bung plug - so that way when I go to transfer (either it to keg, or bottling bucket, seconary etc) I can remove the bung and insert my siphon without introducing too much open air.

There is certainly a minor hiccup with bottling, you will inevitably introduce 02 in the process. But I dont think its something that will consume your hop aroma completely, or turn your cloudy golden beer to brown.

One of the other biggest improvements I have experienced with my IPA's (more so NEIPA since thats really all I do) is water adjustments. Making water adjustments has improved the aroma and color of my beers. And over time they hold up longer - Improving at week 2 or so, and holding their appearance and aroma strong for a longer period of time. Usually theyre gone before they start to change.

I know all this may not apply - but I was going through the same kind of thing with multiple batches, so I did the same as you, read, learned and asked the great people of HBT about it. These are some of the pointers I was given, and it definitely made a difference. I was ready to quit!

Cheers!

 

[Queequeg]

Do you use pellets or cones?

Pellets introduce a lot less O2 than cones

Do not use a secondary

Dry hop during active fermentation

Add sodium metabisulphate when you dry hop

When bottling use a gun connected to CO2 and purge the bottles.

Don't rack to a bottling bucket instead fit a tap to your fermenter and add priming sugar via the airlock

Fit a keg post to the top of other ferment and using a secondary regulator replace the fermenter headspace with CO2 as you bottle.

Do not cold crash

Use O2 PVC free caps.

However ultimately switching to kegging and dry hopping in the keg with through purging will make the biggest improvement

 

[flars]

Hop pellets break down into particles on the surface before they drop into the beer. Not much of a chance that they can introduce enough air into the beer to cause oxidation.

I would look at something you may have done differently during bottling the individual beers that results in perceived oxidation flavors.

 

[Hopper5000]

I would recommend purging with C02 right after you dry hop if you can. Dry hopping when there still is active fermentation could cause C02 scrubbing which would reduce it's effectiveness. Also some types of yeast can bind to hop compounds when they drop out which can reduce the effectiveness of the dry hopping.

 

[Weezy]

+1 on flars. I'd be very shocked if pellet hops added enough oxygen to give us cardboard. I suggest being brutally honest with yourself and take a nice bird eye look at every step of your cold's side brewing process.

 

[Stillraining]

I will get flamed for this but there is way more going on then just oxidization. Or at least surface contact with the air kind of oxidization
I'm adding a picture here this IPA is 8 weeks old.. Looks the way it did at first pull and still tastes great and still has great flavor but it is starting to loose its awesome nose as they will.
So why am I posting this...because I'm a lazy sort of cowboy brewer that doesn't really worry to much about closed transfers and all that stuff.
I aerate vigorously on the hot side.. I dont purge my kegs when filling them from my buckets, I open my buckets to dry hop. I open my kegs to keg hop if so inclined. and I still have beer that looks and tastes great. ( I do naturally carbonate in the keg for 2 weeks so yeast probably eats up all oxygen and dry hop at 1 week so they do the same in the fermenter..that's it!)
If surface contact with the air was the death kneel to beer Id be a failure and we would be dumping 30 gal a month instead of running out with people asking for more. Something else has to be involved. And I do not have an answer for that... I'm starting to think oxidation has something to do with water chemistry and its contact with oxygen...but its just a theory.

So with that theory its quite possible oxygen is your and other peoples issue but not mine due to our water chemistry differences....something someone way smarter then me would have to look into.

Just saying for me its hard to believe inithe whole oxygen boggy monster stuff.

But I want to thank you...Its only 1: 30 here and you made me pull a beer for research purposes..

Carry on!

 

[bucketnative]

Just saying for me its hard to believe inithe whole oxygen boggy monster stuff.

But I want to thank you...Its only 1: 30 here and you made me pull a beer for research purposes..

Carry on!

I tend to agree with you that the oxidation of IPAs (in particular the NEIPAs) is a bit of boogie man. However, I do agree with OP that some people experience oxidation in their IPAs. I lean towards the oxidation issues being a combination of leaving the fermenter open too long or excessive oversampling of gravity to determine when to dry hop or bottle, rather than it being endemic to the style.

Some people have blamed the adjuncts that are popular in the NEIPA vein (oats, wheat...). However, I have brewed saisons and wits with similar grain bills to some of the NEIPAs, and I have yet to experience oxidation issues with those.

Some have blamed the dry-hopping process (bucket lid, pellets vs. cones etc...), but again, none of my dry-hopped saisons have suffered from oxidation.

I posited a test to see if anything some component of the IPAs made them more susceptible to oxidation: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=601423 Not saying I will do the test, but perhaps someone could do it if they wanted.

I just did my first NEIPA (dry-hopped at high krausen, followed by a traditional dry hop after fermentation complete), and I will be keeping a close eye; trying to spot the boogie man.

 

[Donal]

silly question, but have to ask.... how often did you check in on it while fermenting and smelled the glorious hop fragrance?

 

[Weezy]

Or it could just be poor practices by inexperienced but otherwise good intentioned new brewers.

 

[raymarkson]

Or it could just be poor practices by inexperienced but otherwise good intentioned new brewers.

I don't know if you're talking about me specifically, but I do not think that I have poor practices and I am not that inexperienced. Maybe I have not been brewing as long as you, and maybe others on this forum, but I have been brewing for more than 3 years at about two brews a month- sometimes more. For sure, that does not make me an expert, but I do have a good handle on what I'm doing and my practices are not "poor".
I am only thinking that it could be oxidation from the dry hopping. The flavor and darkening color seem to match the descriptions of oxidation. Also, I am only inferring that it is from dry hopping because it has only happened in the beers that I dry hopped and not any of my other beers (and I have made a lot of other beers) Could it be something else? Certainly! I am open to suggestions. That's why I made this post. However, i i am not recieving being told to "be honest with myself" and assuming that I have "poor practices" and that I am inexperienced as being very helpful.

 

[raymarkson]

silly question, but have to ask.... how often did you check in on it while fermenting and smelled the glorious hop fragrance?

I only open it to drop in the pellets and then the five days later to take a gravity reading. Then a day later I transfer it to the bottling bucket and it smells, tastes and looks wonderful, which is why two to three weeks later when I open a bottle it is so disappointing.

 

[Stillraining]

Ray...try skipping the hydrometer reading next time it really is not necessary...if you have krazen you had a good full fermentation...very little risk of not having a complete one and or having bottle bombs.

 

[Bauzer]

Have you taken a close look at your racking cane? If its cracked to **** you may be introducing oxygen during your transfers, which would be 2 fold (to bottling bucket and then to bottle).

Look for lots of tiny bubbles too. Could be a seal issue.

Just an idea.

 

[Weezy]

I don't know if you're talking about me specifically, but I do not think that I have poor practices and I am not that inexperienced. Maybe I have not been brewing as long as you, and maybe others on this forum, but I have been brewing for more than 3 years at about two brews a month- sometimes more. For sure, that does not make me an expert, but I do have a good handle on what I'm doing and my practices are not "poor".
I am only thinking that it could be oxidation from the dry hopping. The flavor and darkening color seem to match the descriptions of oxidation. Also, I am only inferring that it is from dry hopping because it has only happened in the beers that I dry hopped and not any of my other beers (and I have made a lot of other beers) Could it be something else? Certainly! I am open to suggestions. That's why I made this post. However, i i am not recieving being told to "be honest with myself" and assuming that I have "poor practices" and that I am inexperienced as being very helpful.

No, not you, sorry. I don't know your skill level. Post count does not equal skill level. I was talking about bucketnatives post. You see, there always pop up posts by guys complaining about an off flavor (half the time they can't even describe the off flavor) and they go into exhaustive details about how they did everything perfectly but still get this off flavor. Then they start assuming really obscure causes since they're obviously doing everything perfectly. "I think the moon was out of phase. I've read that causes metallic tastes"

Just trying to high light that strong of flavors usually have a simple cause.

 

[Horseflesh]

When I started brewing hoppy beers I did notice that the kegged beer was not as good as the fermenter sample. When I tried filling a keg which was full of co2 instead of air, things seemed to improve.

There is a lot of voodoo and variability in this topic, but my own limited experience in eliminating o2 from packaging has been positive so far.

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

Do you use pellets or cones?

Pellets introduce a lot less O2 than cones

Do not use a secondary

Dry hop during active fermentation

Add sodium metabisulphate when you dry hop

When bottling use a gun connected to CO2 and purge the bottles.

Don't rack to a bottling bucket instead fit a tap to your fermenter and add priming sugar via the airlock

Fit a keg post to the top of other ferment and using a secondary regulator replace the fermenter headspace with CO2 as you bottle.

Do not cold crash

Use O2 PVC free caps.

However ultimately switching to kegging and dry hopping in the keg with through purging will make the biggest improvement

Seems like crazy overkill. I agree with no secondary, but I would definitely cold crash and use a bottling bucket to keep the trub down (minimize splashing). I doubt oxygen exposure is.your problem. I've kegged for e last couple years but bottled many batches and never had any not taste better after a few weeks in the bottle and never worried about exposure, I double dry hop most batches.

 

[Rockit]

Do not cold crash

??? How would that affect oxidation?

 

[Queequeg]

I have experienced oxidation of ipa just from the stuck back in an air lock from cold crashing.

I also think it's not appropriate to compare ipas's to other dry hopped styles mainly because loss of aroma is more perceivable in an ipa were you have used a dry hop 4 times the mass of a said on.

 

[Rockit]

I have experienced oxidation of ipa just from the stuck back in an air lock from cold crashing.

Interesting.
I would have thought the layer of co2 would have protected it.

 

[Horseflesh]

Unfortunately the CO2 "blanket" is kind of a myth. When your CO2 in the vessel is exposed to air, the gasses mix pretty easily.

 

[Hudini56]

Would adding sodium metabisulphate only apply to someone using water that contains chloramine/chlorine? Or is there a use in adding when dry hopping that I just am not aware of? Also if there is a use for it, how much are we talking?

 

[Queequeg]

It's an oxygen scavenger. Google lodo dry hop for articles about its use

 

[mrstone14]

I can't really add any words of wisdom to this post, but I do want to share that I am having similar issues with my hoppy beers. Been doing lots of IPAs with massive late additions, whirlpool, and dry hops, and I even keg my beers, but I find that after just a couple weeks, the hop aromas and flavors have substantially diminished from what they were when the beer went into the keg. Nothing more frustrating than having a killer beer turn into a mediocre beverage in such a short time.

In my searching around the forums and talking to others, oxygen might be the culprit and I will be trying some more advanced tricks to ensure as little exposure as possible. Pushing the beer with co2 to a fully purged keg is my only hope left in the oxygen struggle, so I will see how that goes. My other suspicions revolve around my extremely hard water and I've just gotten into really nailing down my pH with acid additions and might look into RO or distilled water and building up the profiles to my liking.

Again, I know this isn't offering any real advice, but just adds to the evidence that these issues are not just a "myth", they really do affect us brewers, or at least some of us. Hopefully you are able to make some progress, keep at it!

 

[PuppetmanInBC]

I only open it to drop in the pellets and then the five days later to take a gravity reading. Then a day later I transfer it to the bottling bucket and it smells, tastes and looks wonderful, which is why two to three weeks later when I open a bottle it is so disappointing.

I've had that as well - tastes great in the bottling bucket, like crap out of the bottle/keg. Maybe it's the racking cane....

I just got a Catalyst fermenter that allows me to pull trub and yeast off the bottom without opening it, and it bottles off the bottom as well. I have an IPA that will be bottled tomorrow - I'll update the thread tomorrow and in a few weeks if I notice an improvement....

I used to use a bottle-filler, with the little rod that when pushed down, beer would come out. It always looked like it was oxygenating the beer, so I went back to using the clip. Not sure if that's the case...

 

[PuppetmanInBC]

My other suspicions revolve around my extremely hard water and I've just gotten into really nailing down my pH with acid additions and might look into RO or distilled water and building up the profiles to my liking. !

We have super soft water (a bit of magnesium, a bit of calcium), as we're on a well. I've done the water calculation, and now add gypsum, espom salts, a very small amount of table salt, and citric acid, to improve my water. I'd read that some of the additions will make the hops stand out more....

 

[Weezy]

I can't really add any words of wisdom to this post, but I do want to share that I am having similar issues with my hoppy beers. Been doing lots of IPAs with massive late additions, whirlpool, and dry hops, and I even keg my beers, but I find that after just a couple weeks, the hop aromas and flavors have substantially diminished from what they were when the beer went into the keg. Nothing more frustrating than having a killer beer turn into a mediocre beverage in such a short time.

In my searching around the forums and talking to others, oxygen might be the culprit and I will be trying some more advanced tricks to ensure as little exposure as possible. Pushing the beer with co2 to a fully purged keg is my only hope left in the oxygen struggle, so I will see how that goes. My other suspicions revolve around my extremely hard water and I've just gotten into really nailing down my pH with acid additions and might look into RO or distilled water and building up the profiles to my liking.

Again, I know this isn't offering any real advice, but just adds to the evidence that these issues are not just a "myth", they really do affect us brewers, or at least some of us. Hopefully you are able to make some progress, keep at it!

The aromatics that we love from late and dry hops are volatile and do not survive long. Stone's "enjoy by" series, with the date, is dated for that very reason. Hops subside...quickly... regardless of miniscule amounts of oxygen being present in a finished beer or not. This is no secret and you shouldn't have had to dig very deep to learn this.

If you keg and you're not drinking it very fast, you can always dry hop again.

When your IPA starts tasting like card board or soy sauce, then you've got oxygen problem.

 

[Hudini56]

It's an oxygen scavenger. Google lodo dry hop for articles about its use

Some really good information to be read there. Was very interested in the tap water being 5-7ppm of DO, didnt know that. So inevitably oxygen is being introduced into the mash early on in the brew process. And then carried over throughout the brew day, however, I would imagine the boil would drive off DO (from what time I spent reading boiling water for 20min or so will drive DO down to .5ppm I believe is what I read)

Either way, some information out there worth reading - Thanks for the tip!

 

[LJvermonster]

So I brew NEIPAs only, and I keg and the last 4 beers I dry hopped I opened the fermenter bucket put the hops in (both dumping the pellets in and also, the last time, using a stainess mesh hop container). Everytime I dry hop, day one, the beer tastes AMAZING. Then, 1-2 days later it completely changes. It has a sharp almost tangy flavor, the hop aroma and taste is gone, but it doesn't taste like wet carboard at all. I've santized everything, used new lines, and it has always happened.

My very last beer, I decided NOT to dry hop to see if this is really affecting me beers, and the beer came out INCREDIBLE. Best to date by far. Problem with it though, it doesn't have the beautiful aroma a NEIPA has. I did some reading and saw that if you are using hops that are older that have been opened and closed a lot, exposed to air, it could be causing extra oxygen to get into the hops. I do vacuum seal my hops in mason jars but I have used some old-ish (2015 hops) as dry hop so maybe that's the issue?

I have another beer fermenting that I am not going to dry hop because of the quality of my last one. The taste is magical, just wish there was stronger aroma.

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

I agree with weezy, hop flavor always drops off, which is why I keg hop after dry hopping. The beer oxidizing and hop flavor dropping off are 2 different things. Never had a beer turn to **** and I don't worry too much about oxygen, I do worry about sanitation, pitch rates and ferm temp.

 

[mrstone14]

Hops don't fade in a week though. I'm talking two weeks fermenting, then a couple days force carb. Tastes great then, but a week later, not even recognizable. I'm not talking about just a normal IPA either, Enjoy By is an overly bitter, malty mess in my opinion. But if you are going for a citrus and tropical hop bomb, these flavors fade significantly quicker than any commercial versions I've had that are similar. (Modern times, pure project, many others with that NEIPA style or great hop profile like Karl Strauss mosaic). So to me it's a much more complicated issue than my beer being old. I'm just trying to find the source of the issue.

 

[Stillraining]

The beer oxidizing and hop flavor dropping off are 2 different things. Never had a beer turn to **** and I don't worry too much about oxygen, I do worry about sanitation, pitch rates and ferm temp.

^^^^this.........but.... the OP is having his turn to **** so he has to figure that out. Wish I could be more help.

 

[schematix]

The beer oxidizing and hop flavor dropping off are 2 different things. Never had a beer turn to **** and I don't worry too much about oxygen, I do worry about sanitation, pitch rates and ferm temp.

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water.
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free.
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast.
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so.
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick).

 

[Stillraining]

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water. How much for 10Gal?
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free. Do you use a pump or gravity to fill?
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast. This is a trick right?...Oxygen is bad after all..Right?...just sayin
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so. Do you stir or not?
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick). Why not close transfer with CO2 if all this matters? Seems counter productive

.


Your on...I'm going to take this challenge and see what difference it makes. Please answer red lines....Thanks

 

[schematix]

Your on...I'm going to take this challenge ans see what difference it makes. Please answer red lines.

1. use 50-100ppm SMB, depending upon your oxygen egress
2. You could underlet by gravity if your HLT was above your MLT.
3. No don't stir... it'll be fine.
4. I left that step out as a detail..... you want to do a closer transfer to, but an active fermentation is more important because active yeast will scavenge virtually all oxygen.

I highly recommend reading the following:
Fundamentals: http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles-v2.pdf - it says german brewing but its the same principles.

Ongoing: http://www.********************/

 

[Stillraining]

Your answer beat one of my questions ...sorry Can you get that one too. And please explain your #1 answer for us little people. Thanks

 

[Stillraining]

I had actually read that article before....passed it off as voodoo...but challenge is on!...brewing tomorrow and will implement most if not all procedures....may lack the chemical, will have to check in the wine room.

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

Loss of hop flavor is primarily due to oxidation.

I made a low oxygen IPA about 5 months ago and its still friggin' amazing (life changing actually). I've made a lot of IPAs before, but never one low oxygen, and never had one worth a crap after even a month. It's a decent amount more work and can take some more equipment, but low oxygen brewing is what you want to get to the next level.

The process is roughly:
1. Pre boil mash water for 5 minutes.
2. Immediately chill to strike temp and add sodium meta bisulfate to the mash water.
3. Underlet the mash (fill from below). Mash as usual but ensure if you recirc that all connecions are leak free.
4. Boil gently
5. Oxygenate and pitch plenty of healthy yeast.
6. Dry hop with gravity points remaining (*this is the part 1 of the trick)
7. When ready to keg add priming sugar to primary. Wait for fermentation to restart 1 hour or so.
8. Rack to serving keg and seal. Monitor pressure. About 2 weeks later chill and you're ready to go. (*this is part 2 of the trick).

I have read all about LODO brewing, which is mainly to keep the malt flavor and I do think it has merit. I was referencing a post about hop flavor dropping off, which again is different than a beer to the point of oxidation where the beer is noticeably darker and tastes bad. I keg in a closer co2 transfer but used to bottle with a bottling bucket and never had the problems described in the post. I don't think the OP was complaining about it not being award winning, just quality.

 

[Stillraining]

I'm with Ya wild_Cat...but I have to try this thing. I keep an open mind and am teachable regardless of what the wife tells other people..

 

[f_stepanski]

Why not brew your IPA as normal and skip dry hopping all together. If your beer ends up oxygenated then the problem may not be in your dry hopping process. Or brew a beer you normally do not dry hop & add a dry hop step. Just a couple troubleshooting steps to consider.....