Oxidation Paranoia

[HappyWarrior]

just took a sample reading (been single-stage fermenting now for 12 days). The first time I put my autosiphon in to get some juice, I accidentally pulled out a bunch of trub.

I poured it back into the carboy, then took a clearer sample and drank it. Gravity was perfect.

My equipment was well cleaned and sanitized. Could pouring that small amount of beer back in, originally, be a big oxidation risk?

I’m a super stereotypical paranoid homebrewer...

 

[schematix]

Opening the carboy cap was enough to oxidize it. Air is 200,000 ppm O2. It's an absolute beast to protect against. Truth be told, nearly all home brew is oxidized. It's still drinkable in all but the worst cases.

 

[isomerization]

Opening the carboy cap was enough to oxidize it. Air is 200,000 ppm O2. It's an absolute beast to protect against. Truth be told, nearly all home brew is EXPOSED TO OXYGEN. It's still drinkable in all but the worst cases.

FTFY, no fear mongering needed.

 

[ancientmariner52]

We made beer for millenia before we knew oxygen existed. Minimizing o2 makes better, but casual contact doesn't cause bad beer.

Schematix is right, it'll be fine.

Be paranoid about sanitation. Everything else just works out.

 

[schematix]

FTFY, no fear mongering needed.

Fear mongering? Get off your high horse.

Exposing beer to oxygen, especially post fermentation, will start the process of oxidation. It's not instant, but that oxygen, ~20% of our atmosphere, is now in the fermenter head space, and will eventually diffuse into the wort, and then react with wort compounds. This isn't something I've just imagined to happen. This is a fact. The beer is going to change because of this. Whether or not it's an issue to the OP is up to the OP.

And like i said, it'll still be drinkable. It might even be good! But over days/weeks it's going to change due to the exposure. It might still be good even after that. I've personally consumed hundreds of gallons of oxidized home brew. It's a very difficult beast to conquer.

For now concentrate on basics. When ready to tackle oxidation, there are resources out there.

 

[ancientmariner52]

When I ship 100-car trains of unrefrigerated beer to my distributors all over the world, with no control over storage conditions or time til consumption, I obsess over oxygen. But since I only do that a couple of times a week, I don't pay it no mind.

It'll be fine.

Probably just stepped on some toes. It'll heal.

 

[AkTom]

I think you'll be fine. Dude, relax... if I'd live closer, I'd be be over in 2 weeks and we'd be drinking great beer.
Cheers

 

[day_trippr]

I have to relate that since our German brethren arrived with their high-fallutin' "LoDO" proselytizing - which totally made sense to me and to which I have been aspiring - the "truly enjoyable life span" of my beers has been significantly extended.

I've always been OC about cold-side O2 - purged kegs, CO2 pushes, even CO2 top-pressure during cold-crashing - but the hot-side had been totally ignored. Using a healthy sub-set of the LoDO hot-side technique the difference has been profound, and I need to thank them for that. Last spring I was doing Alchemist clones (Topper, Banger and Crusher) and by the time a keg kicked it was obvious that O2 had taken its toll. Color had darkened enough to notice and the hop presence from front to back was clearly attenuated.

This evening one of my sons came by and we were hitting a Treehouse Julius clone I did a full 8 weeks ago - this was the second keg from a two keg batch. It still pours with a beautiful light orange hue - no hint of darkening - and the "in your face" hop juice is all right there.

Indeed, my boys have been simultaneously crushing and boosting my ego of late by stating my recent batches have been the best ever.
Only took ~ 14 years and a bunch of Germans

Cheers!

 

[Horseflesh]

What's the subset of hot side techniques that you use?

 

[day_trippr]

Everything but chemicals and nitrogen
Pre-boiled strike and sparge liquor, underlet strike, capped mash with an immersed HERMs return, low boil, purged pumps and lines, etc.

Sorry about the barely related tangent, honestly I don't think a briefly popped fermentor cap is The End Of Days or anything...

Cheers!

 

[schematix]

I now practice low oxygen brewing to the greatest extent that i can. Prior to "LODO" i was about to give up the hobby because i couldn't get rid of some weird off putting flavors no matter what i did. Turns out, it was oxidation. I was ignorant of really how difficult it is to control.

On the hot side, I, just like day_trippr:
-Pre boiled mash water to reduce dissolved oxygen to near 0.
-Underlet the strike water to displace air from below.
-Small dose of sodium meta-bisulfite (10ppm) in mash water. That's like 1/3 tsp into 16G.
-CO2 purged lines and mash tun
-Capped mash. Recirc return line completely submerged.
-All fittings pressure tested for leaks to eliminate venturi effect.

If you do this you'll get nearly 0 mash aroma and the resulting wort is something you have to taste to believe. You'll know when you get it.


Cold side: (which i'd say is actually more important than hot side and applies regardless of if you do the hot side process)
-Closed fermentation. I use corny kegs. Sampling is easy... just attach a short cobra tap and pull the sample.
-Water purged kegs re-purged with fermentation gasses. Bottling is a no-go.
-Transfer is closed. No lids are opened or caps opened. Just connect purged hoses and go. (see link in my sig if you're curious)
-Rack to the serving keg BEFORE final gravity. That last few gravity points gives you natural carbonation and active scavenging of oxygen.

It's more work but i think it makes better, more stable beer. But it's important to have all the other brewing variables figured out before going down this route because it is more work and if you shortcut some things you're just going to be wasting your time.

 

[stz]

When a beer is considered oxidised is down to the brewer/drinker. Introducing oxygen is really easy and reduces the shelf life of your beer. Recently been having a 'wonderful' time canning beer. Turns out the slight suck on a cooling fermenter (ambient cooling at the tail end of fermentation, not active cooling) is enough to put 1.3ppm in the beer. Dry hopping 20g/L by gently opening a tank otherwise full of co2, with pellets opened and then immediately poured down a co2 purged pipe slipped down into the beer to avoid splashing put 80ppb in the beer. Transferring to a purged tank with the cap off to allow the gas to escape 350ppb. Some of our co2 cylinders were 60ppb!

We love 0ppb. We accept <200ppb though shelf life is less than 6 months. <100ppb 6 months. <50ppb 9 months to a year. Depends on the beer. Secondary fermentation is a wonderful thing if you bottle condition or naturally carbonate keg or cask. Spent quite a lot of money on an o2 meter so we can test everything at every stage to start getting a grip on it.

 

[Sbe2]

Another option/step would be to add CBC-1 a few points above FG, transfer to keg, and let the CBC-1 naturally carbonate the keg while it scavenges the remaining O2.

 

[RM-MN]

just took a sample reading (been single-stage fermenting now for 12 days). The first time I put my autosiphon in to get some juice, I accidentally pulled out a bunch of trub.

I poured it back into the carboy, then took a clearer sample and drank it. Gravity was perfect.

My equipment was well cleaned and sanitized. Could pouring that small amount of beer back in, originally, be a big oxidation risk?

I’m a super stereotypical paranoid homebrewer...

There are much bigger things to be paranoid about. Quit worrying about something that you cannot undo and make more beer.

 

[mongoose33]

As others have said, it'll be fine. Just drink it with alacrity!

I've been on a quest to eliminate O2 from the cold side as much as possible. I consider it a journey toward a destination I can never reach. But my beers do seem to last longer and retain the "pop" I want in the flavor, more than they used to.

I've done a little to reduce O2 on the hot side. I don't crush my grain until right before I dough in; I try to avoid splashing while doughing in; I try to avoid splashing while stirring the mash. I haven't boiled the strike water, haven't put on a mash cap, don't have an enclosed pumping system, can't underlet (at least not yet). But some of these things are on the horizon....

I believe in continuous quality improvement; I've gotten to where I can produce pretty good beer, sometimes even excellent beer. But now I see all these other things I can be doing, and I'm sure I'll continue to head in the direction of LODO brewing.

Sure wish Santa Clause would bring me a DO meter....

 

[ancientmariner52]

After sleeping on it, I awoke with new, deep insight into this and many other topics.

For a closed system containing two brewers:

Ancientmariner's 1st law:

If we both do it, it's standard common sense practice, and only beginners and fools would do otherwise.

Ancientmariner's 2nd law:

If only I do it, it's a revolutionary innovation, and you should be compelled to do it this way, by force if neccesary.

Ancientmariner's 3rd law:

If only you do it, it's clearly the result of a mental defect, and you should be locked up, away from decent people.

There is no elegant solution for the three-brewer problem.

What? Oh. I see. No, you won't need the straitjacket or cattle prods this time. I was just leaving anyway

 

[isomerization]

Fear mongering? Get off your high horse.

Exposing beer to oxygen, especially post fermentation, will start the process of oxidation. It's not instant, but that oxygen, ~20% of our atmosphere, is now in the fermenter head space, and will eventually diffuse into the wort, and then react with wort compounds. This isn't something I've just imagined to happen. This is a fact. The beer is going to change because of this. Whether or not it's an issue to the OP is up to the OP.

And like i said, it'll still be drinkable. It might even be good! But over days/weeks it's going to change due to the exposure. It might still be good even after that. I've personally consumed hundreds of gallons of oxidized home brew. It's a very difficult beast to conquer.

For now concentrate on basics. When ready to tackle oxidation, there are resources out there.

Your later posts would have been a lot more helpful to the OP than your first one. I think it's fairy well established that cold-side reductions are extremely beneficial (as others on this thread, and myself, agree). The hot side stuff is a mixed bag, but I'm sure some people find it beneficial.

To call all homebrew oxidized IS fear mongering. All homebrew is certainly exposed to oxygen, but past a threshold where detectable chemical events can be detected? I've never had anyone detect oxidation in my beers, so maybe I have rose colored glasses on about the general state of homebrewing...

 

[brewcat]

I'd be more concerned about infection. I'd also invest in a thief for future samples.

 

[schematix]

To call all homebrew oxidized IS fear mongering. All homebrew is certainly exposed to oxygen, but past a threshold where detectable chemical events can be detected? I've never had anyone detect oxidation in my beers, so maybe I have rose colored glasses on about the general state of homebrewing...

I don’t think it’s a flavor that most people know how to discern well because it’s always present in traditional home brew. You don’t know what it is until it’s not there.

Could be your tasters don’t know it either, or that you aren’t sensitive to it, or just don’t know it too.

 

[Die_Beerery]

ALL beer is oxidized. Any minute amount of o2 (10ppb) in beer (in fermentation there is none) is oxidation. It is a FACT. The real question is how much and how long do a I have.
I think your rose colored glasses comment is true. 99% of folks don’t understand oxidation. Cardboard and sherry are some of the LAST stages of oxidation. Hop aroma loss, malt flavor loss or general beer flavor altering events are eons before cardboard and sherry. So since no one here has ever had any oxidation with homebrew (which means hop aroma fade, beer quality degradation). You all should teach the big boys how to do it! [emoji12]

 

[isomerization]

I don’t think it’s a flavor that most people know how to discern well because it’s always present in traditional home brew. You don’t know what it is until it’s not there.

Could be your tasters don’t know it either, or that you aren’t sensitive to it, or just don’t know it too.

Maybe I'm just taking umbrage with the terminology, as it would be foolish to think homebrew is O2 free. When I see the term "oxidized" that means final. As in sherry/cardboard levels. Beer with "oxidation" is in progress towards being oxidized, how long it takes is the key. So when people make statements like all homebrew is oxidized, well that seems over the top to me.

It's also misguided (and insulting) to suggest an entire collection of people don't know what they're talking about AND you do.

ALL beer is oxidized. Any minute amount of o2 (10ppb) in beer (in fermentation there is none) is oxidation. It is a FACT. The real question is how much and how long do a I have.
I think your rose colored glasses comment is true. 99% of folks don’t understand oxidation. Cardboard and sherry are some of the LAST stages of oxidation. Hop aroma loss, malt flavor loss or general beer flavor altering events are eons before cardboard and sherry. So since no one here has ever had any oxidation with homebrew (which means hop aroma fade, beer quality degradation). You all should teach the big boys how to do it! [emoji12]

 

[Die_Beerery]

I think it’s bold to make your statements without proof.
Do you have a DO meter? Have you taken readings? We do. [emoji6]

 

[isomerization]

I think it’s bold to make your statements without proof.
Do you have a DO meter? Have you taken readings? We do. [emoji6]

Is it anymore bold than claiming someone else's beer is oxidized without having personally tasted it?

Numbers are important, but sensory perceptions trump them (in my experience). The same beers can be at 1.020 and have drastically different perceptions depending on many other variables. Could be that you have the (unfortunate?) blessing of being capable of detecting a much lower threshold?

 

[Die_Beerery]

All beer is oxidized. Seriously. Every. Single. One.

 

[Kee]

It is curious, if it's so important to keep dissolved oxygen levels at a minimum, that some bottled beers, especially high gravity beers, get better with age. I'm sure there are limits, but I rarely have any to sample older than 6-8 months.

 

[mongoose33]

All beer is oxidized. Seriously. Every. Single. One.

Makes sense. There's oxygen in contact w/ my malt, with my grist, I can't prevent complete isolation from oxygen during the mash, the strike water has oxygen in it.....

Today, I begin the LODO journey myself. I'm going to use my usual methods, i.e., continuous quality improvement, keep making incremental improvements to the process. I have a new mill/motor setup that will allow me to crush grain moments before dough-in, I'll preboil the strike water, use a mash cap, crushing grain at a low speed....

Hopefully there will be a discernable difference.

I've been wanting to ask someone who knows about pre-boiling the strike water--is there anything to be concerned with as to when I add amendments to the water? I typically have some CACL2, MgSO4, and some lactic acid in there. I know boiling (at least I think I do) alters temporary hardness....is that anything with which I should be concerned?

 

[55x11]

All beer is oxidized. Seriously. Every. Single. One.

Sorry but these categorical comments (while technically correct) is not very useful.

"Oxidized" in beer judging terminology means different than "beer has never been exposed to a single O2 molecule in it". "Oxidized" has a well-defined meaning - it means suffering from or exhibiting stale, flabby flavors (or lack of sharpness), change in color, aroma and general degradation that is associated with reactions due to the presence of oxygen.

Every beer has DMS, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, every beer is skunked and suffering from autolysis. Seriously. Every Single One. Every singer beer has at least one CO2 molecule that came from the final breath of Adolf Hitler (also statistically true once you run the numbers, but largely irrelevant in terms of defining the favor profile and its stability).

 

[whovous]

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/oxidize
VERB

• 1Combine chemically with oxygen

Note that the definition makes no mention of cardboard or sherry. All beer combines chemically with oxygen, hence all beer is oxidized.

 

[55x11]

just took a sample reading (been single-stage fermenting now for 12 days). The first time I put my autosiphon in to get some juice, I accidentally pulled out a bunch of trub.

I poured it back into the carboy, then took a clearer sample and drank it. Gravity was perfect.

My equipment was well cleaned and sanitized. Could pouring that small amount of beer back in, originally, be a big oxidation risk?

I’m a super stereotypical paranoid homebrewer...

My take on this - yes, you exposed the beer to some oxygen, but it happens every time you open a fermenter as well. Pouring the fermenting beer back into fermentor is bad practice in general - but mostly due to risks of contamination, especially if you didn't carefully sanitized the container/hydrometer). But in overall, grand scheme of things oxidation that you exposed your beer to during this process is not very large, and if the yeast is still active, it may help scrub some of that oxygen. I would generally try not to take too many samples or otherwise opening the fermenter once fermentation is done, but most people get a much bigger oxidation exposure during cold-crashing and transferring/packaging their beer.

 

[schematix]

But in overall, grand scheme of things oxidation that you exposed your beer to during this process is not very large, and if the yeast is still active, it may help scrub some of that oxygen.

This is a large exposure (although if we're talking grand scheme, it may not even be the greatest yet to occur!). A literal ounce of air is enough to fully oxidize 5 gallons. Think about that for a moment. It essentially implies that it's necessary to maintain closed vessels and also consider the permeability of any fittings/orings/bungs/etc.

OP was also 12 days into fermentation. In all likelihood there's no more scavenging occurring unless he had a sluggish fermentation.

I think this horse is dead. OP's beer is going to be oxidized, but short of changing out all his processes and equipment, there's nothing he can really do anyways. So he should drink it, enjoy, and brew again.