Overwhelming grain taste - Help me diagnose my BIAB problems

[lobsterback]

I'm four 5 gallon batches into brewing, and each has turned out with the same strong, mostly offputting grainy taste and waxy, chalky texture left on the tounge for long after tasting. The initial mouthfeel and hop tastes are good, but the end and aftertaste always seem heavy, dark, and almost burnt with the texture I described above.

My setup is a 10 gal aluminum pot, Wilserbrewer polyester voile bag, heated on my gas stove (apartment, so no propane burner). It takes me about 50 mins to heat from 110F tap water supply to about 160 for mash in, and another 60 or so to get to a boil. The boil is continuous, but fairly weak as it looks like a roiling boil only in a 4inch square section of the pot.

From what I've read this sounds like a case of high tannin extraction. I plan to cease double milling grain. I also purchased a cheap 1000 W water bucket heater to submerse in the wort to bring it to a boil quicker, and hold a more vigorous boil.

I see a considerable amount of "flour" in the bottom of my kettle, probably 3/4" height of a dense phase that I leave in kettle (14 inch diameter kettle). I haven't read much about BIAB brewers needing to take any steps to filter or sparge their wort prior to the boil, to remove these fines that (from what I recall reading) have more potential for tannin extraction (due to high surface area/volume ratio?) during the boil.

What things should I consider for my next brew? Am I on track suspecting tannins?

Thanks all in advance.

For reference:

Brew 1: Lil' Sparky's Nut Brown mashed at 152F for 75 mins. No water treatment, just raw Pacific Northwest soft tapwater. Grain milled once.

Brew 2: Same recipe as above with a little modification, mashed at 154 for 75 mins. Grain double milled.
Water actively managed: 70 ppm Ca, 2 ppm Mg, 8 ppm Na, 0 ppm SO4, 117 ppm Cl, 15 ppm HCO3

Brew 3: All marris otter pale ale with willamette and fuggles.
Water in ppm: 75.2 Ca, 13.2 Mg, 8.0 Na 31.7 Cl, 170.5 SO4
pH measured on friend's pH probe: 5.65 - too high?

Brew 4: 10 lbs 2 row, 1 lb Caramunich, 8 oz Victory. Magnum 60min, Cascade and Citra flameout and dryhop
Water final, pH not measured:
Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2
80.5 16.5 8.0 36.2 190.3

 

[pricelessbrewing]

If it is tannins, and I'm not saying it is, crush won't really change anything.

Tannins are mostly a product of mash ph, you might need some more water chemistry. I would recommend getting a good, CALIBRATED ph meter from a friend or the local homebrew club, and testing your mash ph.

 

[Biscuits]

I am wondering if you're leaving the kettle on the burner while you're mashing? Questions I have are: 1. Are you leaving the burner on, even on the lowest setting while you're mashing to try and maintain temp? 2. How often are you stirring the mash?

I am thinking if you're mash temps are higher than you think because you are leaving the burner on and/or are not stirring enough to even the temp throughout the mash. Even if you are turning the burner off after hitting your strike temp, if you do not remove the kettle, the burner is still hot and will continue to heat. IMHO, before you invest in new equipment I would try and tweak your process just a bit and see what the results are. Simply removing your kettle/tun from the heat source while you mash might be the solution.

 

[theheroguy]

Your setup is almost functionally identical to mine the biggest difference is that I use propane burner. You should not have large amounts of flour in the kettle after pulling your bag out if that is getting scorched it could account for the burnt flavor. Tannin extraction occurs more readily at higher temps so a large amount of flour exposed to high temps could lead to tannin extraction esp if there is husk material in there. Your Ph around 5.65 is high you want to drop that down with lactic acid but that is more of a matching the ph to the style thing that is an acceptable mash ph. You can use the ph estimator at brewersfriend to get a good idea beforehand and adjust the mash after measuring.

 

[TexasWine]

A few questions.

-When do you see this"flour" in the bottom of your kettle? I would be surprised if you can see it before the boil starts, and I suspect it's break material, not grain particles.
- When you say your water was actively managed, what does that mean? Do you have a water report for your tap water from which you started, making dilutions and salt additions to hit the water profile you wanted?
-Are you using hot tap water? Everything I've read indicates that is not best practice, even when cooking.
-How and when did you measure pH on that one batch? 5.65 is pushing the upper limit of acceptable mash pH.

 

[lobsterback]

The 5.65 pH was measured using a calibrated bulb-based pH probe - a raw reading at 5.8, or 5.65 when adjusted for ~150F mash temperature.

Once I reach my mash in temperature I turn the stovetop off. I then pour the grain in over the course of 2-3 minutes, stirring the entire time in order to completely wet the grain. Once completely added I continue to stir within the bag for an additional 2-3 minutes. I then cover the pot, wrap it in a Reflectix insulation sleeve, and recheck temperature every 15 minutes. I seem to loose about 1-2 F per 15 mins, and will turn the stove on low, stirring well, until the temperature I measure (at the surface) shows my intended mash temperature. My temperature measurement method is using a food-grade thermometer with about a 6" metal probe at multiple points on the surface, stirring with the paddle and also swirling the thermometer around.

I don't see the "flour" prior to the boil, so it very well could be break material. It is fluffy and usually golden/orange in color when seen through the residual wort.

I am using hot tap water to increase my initial temperature to minimize heating time to mash in. Why would this not be best practice?

Sounds like one of the biggest improvements I could make is a pH probe and careful monitoring of mash pH.

 

[daveMN]

Since you're using tap water, are your water numbers out of a calculator or test report results? Are you adding a Campden tablet to treat chlorine/ chloramine? Last one, does your tap water go through a water softener?

 

[oujens]

Most on here would advise you measure your pH at room temperature, even if your meter can adjust for the temperature. I think they also state you will shorten the life of your probe at those temps. Next time cool it down to room temp before taking a measurement to ensure an accurate reading. I set the sample glass in ice water and swirl if for a few minutes before taking a reading.

 

[TexasWine]

I am using hot tap water to increase my initial temperature to minimize heating time to mash in. Why would this not be best practice?

Info on hot water below.

"3. In all situations, drink or cook only with water that comes out of the tap cold. Water that comes out of the tap warm or hot can contain much higher levels of lead. Boiling this water will NOT reduce the amount of lead in your water."

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/tips/water.htm

Also, it's still not clear what you did to "actively manage" your water. Do you have a water analysis for your tap water? You listed the mineral profile you were aiming for. Did you achieve that by using your existing tap water analysis and dilute it with RO water, or did you do something else entirely?

 

[lobsterback]

Since you're using tap water, are your water numbers out of a calculator or test report results? Are you adding a Campden tablet to treat chlorine/ chloramine? Last one, does your tap water go through a water softener?

Water numbers are from thread here. Have been using rnm410's values in the last post. He's the friend who's pH probe I used.

No campden tablets added. Combination of gypsum, CaCl2 and epsom added to achieve final concentrations. The mineral concentrations in my original post were the final values after these additions - I should have been more clear about this. I said "actively managed" as a confusing way to say that I added these salts to bring the base water profile to the final concentrations.

No water softener. Straight from the tap to the kettle, with salts added while bringing to mash temperature and stirred thoroughly to dissolve and disperse.

 

[Biscuits]

Once I reach my mash in temperature I turn the stovetop off. I then pour the grain in over the course of 2-3 minutes, stirring the entire time in order to completely wet the grain. Once completely added I continue to stir within the bag for an additional 2-3 minutes. I then cover the pot, wrap it in a Reflectix insulation sleeve, and recheck temperature every 15 minutes. I seem to loose about 1-2 F per 15 mins, and will turn the stove on low, stirring well, until the temperature I measure (at the surface) shows my intended mash temperature. My temperature measurement method is using a food-grade thermometer with about a 6" metal probe at multiple points on the surface, stirring with the paddle and also swirling the thermometer around.

It sounds like you debunk'd my theory. Unless the thermometer is way off, but that is unlikely.

The only other potential issue I see is that maybe you're not generating a vigorous enough boil and the break material is settling on the bottom and burning. I am just shooting from the hip now though.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Just a note, when taking a pH reading, you must wait for the sample to cool to room temp. Don't take hot and adjust. It's not accurate

 

[lobsterback]

After reconsulting my notes I realized that the sample measured for pH was cooled - not taken hot, so I'm more inclined to believe the 5.65.

So for my next batch it sounds like I need to monitor my mash pH better and potentially add acid if above the 5.2-5.4 range. Any recommendations for meters?

I'll also single crush my grain, and begin with unheated tap water per best practice. I do also twist the bag and press it gently against my mash paddle when withdrawing the bag at the end of mash, and have read of suspicion of tannin issues from this practice.

Does my slow temperature increase to boil hold any bearing on increased tannin concentration? When is tannin extraction at its peak - during the boil right?

 

[flars]

You can rule out the hot tap water as part of the problem by letting a glass of the tap water cool to room temperature and then taste it.

My hot tap water tastes terrible. Leaves a very heavy mineral taste in the mouth.

 

[doug293cz]

The 5.65 pH was measured using a calibrated bulb-based pH probe - a raw reading at 5.8, or 5.65 when adjusted for ~150F mash temperature.

...

Mash pH reading should be taken at room temp. pH readings taken at mash temps are typically about 0.35 pH lower than the room temp mash pH. This is different than the pH reading temperature correction. All of the mash pH recommendations are for pH readings taken on room temperature mashes. So, if your mash pH at mash temp was 5.65, then the room temp pH would have been ~6.0. This is too high, and puts you in tannin extraction territory.

Edit: Never mind.

After reconsulting my notes I realized that the sample measured for pH was cooled - not taken hot, so I'm more inclined to believe the 5.65.

So for my next batch it sounds like I need to monitor my mash pH better and potentially add acid if above the 5.2-5.4 range. Any recommendations for meters?

I'll also single crush my grain, and begin with unheated tap water per best practice. I do also twist the bag and press it gently against my mash paddle when withdrawing the bag at the end of mash, and have read of suspicion of tannin issues from this practice.

Does my slow temperature increase to boil hold any bearing on increased tannin concentration? When is tannin extraction at its peak - during the boil right?

Don't worry about squeezing. Squeezing doesn't extract tannins (old wives tale); high pH causes tannin extraction. There are commercial breweries that use hydraulic filter presses to extract wort from the mash, and they squeeze much harder than you can. If squeezing extracted tannins, these breweries wouldn't sell much beer.

Brew on

 

[Magnus314]

Okay, I skimmed the other posts, so ignore me if I'm way off. But raw tap water most likely has at least some chlorine/chloramines.

To make matters worse, it's seasonal, and springtime is the worst season in some areas.

 

[PsychoBiter]

I suggest your next brew that you use RO water from the store and do the appropriate mineral additions to get the PH to match up with your grain bill. I was able to get the water analysis from the store that I buy my water and go from there. It will take the water factor out of why you are getting the poor results.

 

[lobsterback]

UPDATE: Was out of town for a week and tried my beer last night. It is LOVELY! The difference in taste is amazing, and I have no clue what might have caused it. All hints of the bitter waxy finish are gone.

The last time I tasted the keg had been sitting undisturbed for at least 2 days, so I don't believe the change is a matter of material settling out of solution.

The hop back with 1 oz Cascade pellets and 1 oz Citra loose leaf hops is still in the keg, and it has been sitting at about 15 psig since I left it. The hop aroma has definitely evolved in the week, but is nothing overpowering.

Notes - I did overcarb when force carbing (rookie move forgetting to drop the regulator down after a 50 psig blast to seat the o-ring), to the point that it still foams quite severely unless depress the popit to allow the CO2 to leave solution prior to pouring.

I'm hesitant to buy in 100% that my process is suited to producing a great beer, but this definitely gives me hope. I'll be implementing several of your suggestions in my next brew in a week or two.

 

[1MadScientist]

Brew 3: All marris otter pale ale with willamette and fuggles.
Water in ppm: 75.2 Ca, 13.2 Mg, 8.0 Na 31.7 Cl, 170.5 SO4
pH measured on friend's pH probe: 5.65 - too high?

Looking at this one here. Fuggles is a near noble hop and it looks to be sensitive to a high so4 ratio (any thing over 100 ppm). This brew was at 1:5.4 ratio is that right? Very bitter range.

Wouldn't a balanced ratio work better?

http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/11/the-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-and-beer-bitterness/

 

[lobsterback]

Looking at this one here. Fuggles is a near noble hop and it looks to be sensitive to a high so4 ratio (any thing over 100 ppm). This brew was at 1:5.4 ratio is that right? Very bitter range.

Wouldn't a balanced ratio work better?

http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/11/the-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-and-beer-bitterness/

Interesting, I hadn't read that about noble hop varieties. I used the same so4 ratio for the 4th batch of magnum/cascade/cotta that turned out well but of course none are noble and magnum and citrus have a significsntly higher alpha content

What would be the taste consequence of using too high of a so4/cl ratio? Undesirable bitterness?

 

[1MadScientist]

Interesting, I hadn't read that about noble hop varieties. I used the same so4 ratio for the 4th batch of magnum/cascade/cotta that turned out well but of course none are noble and magnum and citrus have a significantly higher alpha content

What would be the taste consequence of using too high of a so4/cl ratio? Undesirable bitterness?

Maybe others could chime in here. I have never used that "high" of a ratio before. It is hard to tell what your IBU# and bitterness to gravity ratio's were and don't know if bitterness or so4/cl ratio has anything to do with your original first post and title subject line. I was just spit balling.

 

[lobsterback]

Update - as I continue my my homebrew green-ness

Brewed a brown ale today and the wort sample I tasted was incredibly toasty to the point of tasting very burnt. I checked the kettle for signs of burned grain - nothing.

've become suspicious that the issue might light in my water and treatment. I'm in Washington, and my water profile looks like:
5ppm Ca / 2ppm Mg / 8ppm Na / 15 ppm HCO3 / 0.8ppm Cl

I have not been adding bicarbonate to my mash at all, rather with the last two brews since my original post I have added 1-2 mL of 75wt% phosphoric acid to hit a mash pH of 5.3-5.5.

Most threads I read regarding brown ales encourage bicarbonate addition as the roasted and crystal malts used will drop pH low. That has not been my experience - with this latest batch (recipe below) I still found that I had to add 2 mL of 75% phosphoric to reach 5.3 pH (at 65F) about 10 mins into the mash. I continued to measure pH through the mash and it did not appreciably change from 5.3. The pH probe was calibrated at 4.01 and 7 pH about 1 hour prior to use.

The OG into the fermentor came to 1.050 when targeting 1.059. Would a consequence of low pH be incomplete conversion? This might be indication that my pH measurement is incorrect.

We'll see if the yeast clean it up, but that first taste of wort was pretty alarming and has caused me to further question my method. The next brew will be without water modifications at all to take this variable out of the equation - likely a pilsner considering my local water.

5.5 lbs 2 row
5.5 lbs Maris Otter
1 lb Victory
1 lb crystal
0.5 lb Chocolate 350
0.5 lb flaked oats

 

[passedpawn]

I briefly got into water additions. I made an english beer, maybe an ESB can't remember, and a friend said it was very "minerally". Sure enough, he was right. I stopped screwing with the water and everything's been fine since.

I don't doubt for a minute that water modifications can take a beer from good to great. But I suggest getting to good first. For me, that was good enough.