Over carbing (why does it keep happening)

[Pyg]

I once grossly over carbed a batch and have been doing my best to never do it again.
Recently I bottled 4.2 gallons of a holiday ale.
Brewers friend calculator indicated For 2.2 should use 3.4 oz of prime sugar.
I measure the OZ by weight not by volume.

My beer usually ferments at 68 to 66
After about 6 weeks I got a lot of foam!
It is more annoying than anything as I have to pour 1/2 the glass, let it settle and pour the rest.
But I admit I am somewhat embarrassed to hand out bottles knowing that they foam over.

What am I doing wrong.
Or is this just homebrew in a bottle?

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[Singletrack]

A couple possibilities:

1. The beer wasn't completely fermented prior to bottling.
2. Too much priming sugar.

Can you convince us it isn't possibility no. 1? If so, then tell us what values you input into BF to get 3.4 oz. Temp?

 

[Pyg]

A couple possibilities:

1. The beer wasn't completely fermented prior to bottling.
2. Too much priming sugar.

Can you convince us it isn't possibility no. 1? If so, then tell us what values you input into BF to get 3.4 oz. Temp?

1-All my beers sit for 3 weeks in primary, last 3 days are cold crashed

2-66f, 2.4 carb level. 4.2 gallons of brew

The beers usually sit in my basement at 64 weeks. Wondering if I should start degassing before priming?

I tend to prime with dextrose.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1450321979.313638.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1450321994.277885.jpg

 

[Ungoliant]

Make sure you have *very* accurate readings for bottling volume and wort temp at time of bottling. Also, whatever's listed for your style, I'd go on the bottom end of the range.

Also, how long are you setting it in the fridge before you open it? 6+ hours can make a big difference. I've had gushers at room temp go to a nice, retained 1 inch thick head after about 24 hours in the fridge.

 

[Pyg]

Make sure you have *very* accurate readings for bottling volume and wort temp at time of bottling. Also, whatever's listed for your style, I'd go on the bottom end of the range.

Also, how long are you setting it in the fridge before you open it? 6+ hours can make a big difference. I've had gushers at room temp go to a nice, retained 1 inch thick head after about 24 hours in the fridge.

The above pic was a beer that had been in the fridge for over a week.

I had been told, when using the calculator that "temp of beer" was the temp the beer fermented at since there would be residual gas .

If that is incorrect that could solve a lot, since I tend to cold crash prior to bottling, the beer temp at time of bottle is closer to 44F

 

[Yooper]

The above pic was a beer that had been in the fridge for over a week.

I had been told, when using the calculator that "temp of beer" was the temp the beer fermented at since there would be residual gas .

If that is incorrect that could solve a lot, since I tend to cold crash prior to bottling, the beer temp at time of bottle is closer to 44F

No, the temperature you use in the calculator (although I would never use one) is the highest temperature the beer reached.

I hate those calculators, and never use them. They will have you make flat beer (check out the stout at 1.5 volumes) or bottle bombs (weizens at 4+ volumes).

But I'm old, and can't see the numbers. Can you tell me how many ounces of corn sugar you used, and the size of the batch? I generally would use .75 ounces for every finished gallon.

 

[Pyg]

No, the temperature you use in the calculator (although I would never use one) is the highest temperature the beer reached.



I hate those calculators, and never use them. They will have you make flat beer (check out the stout at 1.5 volumes) or bottle bombs (weizens at 4+ volumes).



But I'm old, and can't see the numbers. Can you tell me how many ounces of corn sugar you used, and the size of the batch? I generally would use .75 ounces for every finished gallon.

I use 3.4 oz of dextrose
For estimated 4.2 gallon of brew (it was 1/2 way between 4.5 and 4.0)

 

[Singletrack]

Generally, you should use the highest temp post-fermentation, which you did. However, your beer will absorb some CO2 during cold crashing, so the temp issue does not have an easy solution. I have found that it is best to back down on the volumes a bit based on experience. Still, I get more variation than I would like.

Your original post said 2.2 volumes, and that sounded closer to my target. Apparently that was a typo, and you were actually shooting for 2.4 volumes. Maybe a bit high.

Also, I have an unfounded belief that priming sugar excites some yeasts in some beers, and they decide to chomp some more malt sugars before going dormant. I never repeat anything, so this is just a notion that I use as a get-outta-jail-free card, when needed. You're welcome to borrow it.

 

[bob1852]

I use 3.4 oz of dextrose
For estimated 4.2 gallon of brew (it was 1/2 way between 4.5 and 4.0)

How are you measuring 4 and 4.5 gallons? By the premarked lines on a bottling bucket?

If so, those are notoriously off.....way off in some cases...

 

[doug293cz]

Generally, you should use the highest temp post-fermentation, which you did. However, your beer will absorb some CO2 during cold crashing, so the temp issue does not have an easy solution. ...

The amount of CO2 that can be absorbed during cold crashing is less than 0.1 volume, and that would take 2 - 3 weeks of cold crashing to occur. You might get 0.05 volumes by cold crashing for a week. See my recent analysis of CO2 absorption during cold crashing here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7275311&postcount=15 (warning contains lots of math.)

Brew on

 

[aprichman]

I had an infection (I suspect it might have been some wild brett yeast but or a pediococcus bug) that would make my beers over carb and look EXACTLY like that. I was brewing almost every week at that point so I had 3-4 batches bottled before I noticed. At 6 weeks it wasn't so bad but at 10+ weeks some real off flavors started to develop so sadly I had to dump all of that beer

I bleach bombed all of my equipment/bottles and have been problem free for the last 5-6 months.

 

[andy6026]

4 things that may be helpful:

1) The measuring lines printed on the side of fermenter and bottling buckets are notoriously wrong. Be sure to make your own lines using a measuring cup and sharpie.

2) Cold crashing (refrigerating) your bottles before opening them for a minimum of 2-3 days will significantly help in keeping the carbonation in solution when you pour it into a glass. I don't know the science as to why (compared to the beer being at the same temperature for only an hour or so), but it worked for me.

3) Are you accurately taking into account the amount of trub that's displacing the beer? While many would advise you to rack the beer into the bottling bucket ON TOP of the priming sugar, I found I was able to get more accurate carbonation levels in my beer if I racked the beer first and then calculated my priming sugar requirements after knowing how much actual beer I had. Just be sure to gently stir the priming sugar well into the beer without oxidizing it.

4) While many advise not to use a secondary, I found that using a secondary reduced the amount of hop debris that would invariably get into my bottling bucket, and then into my bottles. Hop debris in the bottles can form a nucleation point for the carbonation to come out of solution when you pour it. Invariably, beer with floaters is much more likely to foam over.

...and last: if space and funds allow, you should move to kegging sooner rather than later. No more back-breaking bottling days, consistent carbonation, shorter waiting times between brew day and drinking, and no endless piles of bottles to clean up and rinse (and store) after your friends have visited. Kegging is a gift from the gods!

 

[sky4meplease]

I use Brewers Friend's priming calculator and always type in current temperature of beer and have had good results.
I cold crash and typically bottle at 40-45 degrees. Good measurements of temperature, volume and priming sugar weight are important of course.
Maybe pour a bottle into a hydrometer flask and check the gravity to see if it has changed dramatically since you bottled. That may let you know if you are still fermenting.

 

[mrdauber64]

Are you using the same, or similar, yeast every time? I've had beers brewed with WYeast 1968 that have restarted fermentation in the bottle due to the yeast dropping out too early. To prevent that from happening I have been increasing the fermentation temps to 72 degrees when I have 25% left. This has fixed my over carbonation issues.

 

[m00ps]

Im guessing you are not accounting for trub loss. I am lazy and just use graduation lines on the buckets and havent had issue. I did have this happen a few times early on though. If you read the liquid level at 4.25 gallons, you likely wont get any more than like 3.75 or so in the bottling bucket. You need to figure out how much usually stays behind as trub and subtract it from your bottling volume

 

[sniktaw]

While it probably isn't the issue, have you verified the accuracy of the scale you are measuring your sugar with? If it is off by very much, it could explain the problem and would be a simple fix.

 

[doug293cz]

I use Brewers Friend's priming calculator and always type in current temperature of beer and have had good results.
I cold crash and typically bottle at 40-45 degrees. ...

Using the cold crash temp in a priming calculator will get you less carbonation than you intended. If your highest temp at end of fermentation was say 68°F, the residual CO2 in the beer would be 0.75 volumes. Now if you wanted 2.5 volumes of carb in the bottled beer, you would need to add enough sugar to create 1.75 volumes of additional CO2. But if you tell the priming calculator that your beer is at 43°F, it will calculate that your beer contains 1.30 volumes of residual CO2, and only tell you to add enough sugar to create 1.20 additional volumes. Since your beer really only contained 0.75 volumes of residual carbonation, your actual finished carbonation would be 0.75 + 1.20 = 1.95 volumes. Significantly less than you intended (0.55 volumes less.)

Now you might say "the beer will absorb more CO2 from the headspace during cold crashing," thinking that it will absorb enough to overcome the discrepancy shown above. Not so. The maximum possible CO2 absorption during cold crashing can be calculated. If we assume 5.25 gal of beer in the fermenter and 1 gal of headspace, and cold crashing from 68°F to 43°F, the maximum level of carbonation the beer can reach is 0.82 volumes (see detailed analysis method here.) So, worst case carbonation level by putting 68°F in the priming calculator would be 0.82 + 1.75 = 2.57 (0.07 volumes over target.) But, it would take about 3 weeks of cold crashing for the CO2 in the beer to reach equilibrium with the CO2 in the headspace. For a couple of days of cold crashing you would likely be only about 0.02 volumes over target, an insignificant error.

If you like the lower level of carbonation you get by putting your cold crash temp into the calculator, that's fine. But, you are fooling yourself about the actual level of carbonation.

If you want reasonably accurate levels of carbonation, use your highest post fermentation temperature in the priming calculator.

Brew on

 

[Sailingeric]

What is in your recipe? Are you using a lot of Carafoam or something similar? I had a pale ale that did that and since I have cut back on my Carafoam by half and all is good.

 

[sky4meplease]

If you like the lower level of carbonation you get by putting your cold crash temp into the calculator, that's fine.

Since the OP is having trouble over carbonating his beer using his fermentation temp in the calculator maybe this is exactly what he should do.
Right or wrong, scientific or not it works using the cold crash temperature. I have used this calculator with the current temperature of the beer for roughly 30 batches and after a month in the bottle I can't say I have ever significantly over or under carbed a beer.
I too would be curious to see the recipe. OP said Holiday Ale. That makes me wonder if there is a lot of spice in this brew.

 

[specharka]

Could you post the recipe and your OG/FG? Also, what was your yeast pitch rate? I suspect that the beer did not attenuate before you bottled it -- time in fermenter is often not an accurate odometer for beer maturity.

Under-pitching yeast is the single most common source of problems for homebrewers. Take care of your yeasties, and they will take care of you.

 

[Pyg]

I have got so much information my head is spinning, but that is a good thing.
My process for bottling is to rack from the cold crash to a car boy. The car boy has lines on it which I measured and marked.
I have never double checked my scale, it is an old one left over from SWMBO's measure-food diet
Recipe is as follows

SG 1.068
Fg 1.014
1# Crystal 60L,
2 oz Black Malt
3.3# Light LME,
3# Light DME,
1# Honey
2 oz Cascade hop pellets (11 AAU) bittering hop 60 min..
1 oz Cinnamon Stick, 10 min
1 oz Sweet Orange Peel, 10 min
1 oz of Ginger Powderlast 10 min
½ oz Saaz pellets aroma hop last 5 min
1/4 cup dextrose (to up ABV)
Nottingham dry yeast..

I dumped yeast in dry, around 80F, leave in primary for 3 weeks

 

[Singletrack]

I have got so much information my head is spinning... The car boy has lines on it which I measured and marked.

Not good enough Pyg! As long as we've got you spinning, you should know that measuring cups are also notoriously wrong. So how did you measure carboy volume?

Apparently, cooking requires no better accuracy than "a dash of this and a handful of that into a butt-sized volume of whatever." As you may know, butt sizes vary -- mostly over-sized, but that is getting off topic. IME, weight scales are far more accurate than volume markings on typical cooking or brewing stuff, so you should mark your carboy volumes based on weight. Unfortunately, no one knows what a gallon of water weighs, so this is impossible.

No, that's not right. Water at 77 F weighs 8.32 lb per gal. I must have figured this once during the summer, when my water was 77 F. (@doug293cz may provide the formula or chart for water density vs. temperature in a few minutes.)

In any event, given all this info, would it make sense to just back off on the target carbonation volume a bit until you arrive at the values that work for you? I see nothing wrong with what you are doing. There is great info in this thread, but little or nothing that would change what you are already doing.

 

[Pyg]

Not good enough Pyg! As long as we've got you spinning, you should know that measuring cups are also notoriously wrong. So how did you measure carboy volume?

Apparently, cooking requires no better accuracy than "a dash of this and a handful of that into a butt-sized volume of whatever." As you may know, butt sizes vary -- mostly over-sized, but that is getting off topic. IME, weight scales are far more accurate than volume markings on typical cooking or brewing stuff, so you should mark your carboy volumes based on weight. Unfortunately, no one knows what a gallon of water weighs, so this is impossible.

No, that's not right. Water at 77 F weighs 8.32 lb per gal. I must have figured this once during the summer, when my water was 77 F. (@doug293cz may provide the formula or chart for water density vs. temperature in a few minutes.)

In any event, given all this info, would it make sense to just back off on the target carbonation volume a bit until you arrive at the values that work for you? I see nothing wrong with what you are doing. There is great info in this thread, but little or nothing that would change what you are already doing.

Ok, this is starting to become work, thinkin and way too much math!
But all kidding aside, I used a 1 quart measuring cup to measure and mark off a 2 gallon bucket at gallon and half gallon intervals .
I then used the bucket to fill my carboy and Mark off gallon.
I then used the water in 1 carboy to compare in Another carboy & it was close.

One thing I have found since starting wine & beer makin is that no measuring cup-bucket is correct. They all seem to be off.

I guess I can weigh the water by 1 gallon and then use that to figure out how many gallons of beer I have?
Would it make a difference if I splash racked to get rid of some co2?

I just don't want to over carb

 

[sky4meplease]

Have you had this same trouble with beers that don't have spice in them?
I don't have any experience brewing beer with spice but the few I have consumed seemed to always have huge head and a lot of carbonation (very foamy).

 

[WrQth]

Might you just be pouring too aggressively?

 

[madscientist451]

I've had problems with over carbing when bottling that I attributed to less than full attenuation. Your beer recipe shows that your beer "finished" at 1.014, I believe your priming sugar addition caused your yeast to kick back in and it chewed up fermentables beyond the priming sugar. Honey usually needs a staggered yeast nutrient addition to fully ferment, and I see you used a pound of honey. If you like this beer and are going to re-brew, I would do it the same and try adding 1/2 the priming sugar. If my theory of low attenuation is correct, you could also try a different yeast, make a starter, controlling temperature during fermentation with a gradual step up and staggered yeast nutrient addition to help ferment the honey.

 

[Pyg]

And then my next batch was slightly under carbed.
Just can't win!
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[ShizuokaBrad]

As others have suggested, it would be a good idea to check your measurements again. Also, amount of time in primary isn't a substitute for taking gravity readings to figure out when a beer is finished.

One last point, how much headspace in the bottles? Too much or too little can effect carbonation levels.