over attenuated dubbel

[jslande01]

3rd BIAB, tried to replicate Achel Bruin 7/8.

11 lbs 2-row pale (LHBS only had about a pound of Pils the day I was there)
.5 lbs chocolate
.5 lbs carapils
1 lb D45 syrup
2 lbs beet sugar

mashed at 152 for 90 min, 75 minute boil, added the D45 and beet sugar at 20 minutes left.

SG 1.070, FG ended up at 0.995 (was shooting for 1.010'ish)

Yeast... used the dregs from 2 bottles of Achel (carried back from Achel 2 weeks prior), did a 3 stage starter, 500ml of 1.020, 1000ml of 1.030, then 2000ml of 1.040 with a stirplate over the course of about 10 days. Cold crashed, poured off the liquid and pitched at 65 degrees. Temp ramped up to about 74 by the 3rd day, it was a very active ferment.

Too much sugar? too low mash temp? maybe an over-active secondary yeast in the bottles? Maybe all of the above?

Anyway, to fix it, maybe throw 500g of maltodextrin in when I keg it? I assume since the abv ended up around 10%, I'll probably need to let it rest for a few months.

 

[baldm79]

Honestly sounds like your techniques were pretty solid to me. In my experience usually there is some kind of error in my system to get an attenuation this high. Also a lot of Belgian's seem to have a very low f.g. I would definitely taste it before trying any kind of fix.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

How does it taste? At 0.995 it would be extremely dry. Check your hydrometer calibration in some distilled water. My hydrometer reads 0.004 low. A quick test estimates your OG at 1.082 at 70% efficiency. To come out at 1.070 brewhouse efficiency, that would be about 55% efficiency.

I expect your hydrometer is off by 0.010 or more.

 

[jslande01]

How does it taste? At 0.995 it would be extremely dry. Check your hydrometer calibration in some distilled water. My hydrometer reads 0.004 low. A quick test estimates your OG at 1.082 at 70% efficiency. To come out at 1.070 brewhouse efficiency, that would be about 55% efficiency.

I expect your hydrometer is off by 0.010 or more.

it was a bit light and "boozy" as expected with a young 10% beer. Since I'm doing BIAB with no lautering (I just squeeze the bag) I shoot for 65%, was expecting 1.075'ish with this batch.

I'll check my hydrometer tonight.

My first two BIAB batches have both been Belgian style blonde's, first one was pretty good, second one I will tap tonight, but all the numbers went pretty close to what I expected.

 

[jekeane]

There is a hydrometer calibration or refractometer math error somewhere in here. As mentioned above calibrate with distilled and check your hydrometer for hairline cracks that may be letting wort into the bulb. I have seen belle saison go below 1.000 once and that is it for saccharomyces strains My brett beers and ciders rarely get to .995.

That would be about 88% attenuation max for Belle Saison which is a beast strain is 83%

 

[jslande01]

There is a hydrometer calibration or refractometer math error somewhere in here. As mentioned above calibrate with distilled and check your hydrometer for hairline cracks that may be letting wort into the bulb. I have seen belle saison go below 1.000 once and that is it for saccharomyces strains My brett beers and ciders rarely get to .995.

I don't think that's the case, but I will check to make sure... I also started a batch of rhubarb wine last night and the SG I measured was what I was expecting.

 

[jekeane]

I don't think that's the case, but I will check to make sure... I also started a batch of rhubarb wine last night and the SG I measured was what I was expecting.

I would be concerned about having picked up something wild during stepping up starters or somewhere in the process with that fg if nothing is measuring off when calibrating.

Im not familiar with the Achel strain other than it was likely given to them initially by Westmalle. Maybe over the years they have evolved it into their house strain it has become a super atenuator or it picked up diastaticus.

 

[xico]

Sounds like a potential diastaticus contamination. In the two years I've been analyzing liquid yeast from the duopoly I'm shocked at how many "pure" cultures are mixed. So much so that if I run genetic work from a slurry out the pack I waste my time without isolating the 2-3 cultures in the pack. When you are handling bottle dregs you are now mixing in bottle conditioned yeast (which might be different from primary), and any contaminating organisms that made it into the glass through packaging.

I'm surprised other breweries haven't had the problems Left Hand has and I'm even more shocked that the yeast moguls don't have tighter quality analysis protocol to catch it. Breweries in Europe take diastaticus very seriously but we seem to only now be catching on in the Americas.

A very high attenuation in a beer in a shorter period of time than Brett often screams diastaticus. Some commercial strains are of this variant. 3711 French Saison from wyeast is a very popular strain that is well known for hitting your final numbers in a matter of a couple weeks.

I wouldn't add anything to it to change the mouthfeel personally. If I were to add body I don't think I would opt for maltodextrin. If it is diastaticus it may be able to metabolize it too. If you boil some oats for 10 minutes and strain off the grain the starches in solution will add mouthfeel without adding accessible carbohydrates for a wild Sacch.

 

[popsicleian]

I visited Achel last summer, and that is such a phenomenal beer. Between the D45 syrup and the table sugar, that seems like way too much simple sugar to me. I don't have it in front of me, but if I remember correctly from Brew Like a Monk, that beer only uses pils, a little bit of chocolate, and candi sugar/syrup. I'd recommend dropping the Carapils and all of the table sugar. I know they use the Westmalle yeast, so you might be better off with a fresh pack of that rather than taking the chance that they're using a separate bottling strain.

 

[jslande01]

Checked my hydrometer, in distilled water I'm at 0.998.

So actually, I mis-read my FG, it is actually 0.999, not 0.995, but still, I've never had a beer go lower than 1.008 and was expecting something closer to 1.010-1.015 for this particular brew.

I'll see how this ends up, but yeah, I'll probably re-brew with no table sugar and pitch straight Westmalle yeast.

 

[jekeane]

At that gravity and assuming there are no wild type off flavors I would be wiling to bet you picked up a diastaticus strain. They may use it in their bottling process for refermentation.

 

[Calder]

12 lbs grain, 1 lb syrup, and 2 lbs sugar. I'm assuming 5 gallons.

Taking just the sugar and syrup alone, your OG would have been 1.025, so the grains only gave you 45 points or 1.045 on their own.

You have a lot of simple sugar that on it's own would ferment down to somewhere around 0.990. This offsets the grain attenuation. To end up with about 0.997, the grain would have had to go from 1.045 to 1.007, or about 65% attenuation.

These numbers are all rough, but I don't think it unreasonable to have gotten such a low FG with that yeast, I'm actually surprised it is not much lower, but I haven't done all the math, and it may be as expected. You don't have any contamination (or at least contamination that is driving fermentation).

I love dry Belgians. I have had a number end below 1.000, and I love them. The dryness really helps to bring out the yeast flavors. I wouldn't do anything to it.

2 comments:

1) That is a lot of sugar, but not really out of place for the beer that you were trying to make. It is a lot of sugar for a 1.070 beer; basically 35% of your total sugars.

2) You need to figure out what the problem is with the mash. 12 lbs to get 45 points in 5 gallons; that is 225 points total, or 19 points per lb. With a potential of 36 points per lb, you got 52% overall efficiency. Or if that is what your system gives you, use more grain.

I suspecting you had more than 5 gallons (maybe 5.5), because the yeast attenuation is low on the malt sugars, and 52% overall efficiency is really bad.

 

[jslande01]

Well, the results are in, and I think it turned out quite well. The dryness is actually quite close to what I remember of the Achel 7 (that was only on tap at the Abbey). First beer I've made that doesn't "stick to my teeth".

Going to try a blonde, but with straight Westmalle yeast rather than dregs. Will shoot for something in the 5.5-6.5% range before I try another Tripel. I haven't had good luck with Tripel's doing extract (off flavors, lack of carbonation, infection), haven't tried with with the BIAB yet.