Orval Dregs

[goodolarchie]

My most recent foray with Orval dregs was at the beginning of 2020, with a somewhat lackluster Belgian Golden Strong I brewed and was preparing to bottle, when I thought I would try bottling half the batch with sugar (carb drops), and dose the rest with Orval dregs without adding sugar, relying only on the further attenuation of Orval's brett / sacch.

The Blonde started just a squeak below 1.007, after one year the Orval-spiked bottles have settled at 1.003. There's no question as to which are the better beers. I get the classic musty, leathery funk and there are still some pear esters from the Duvel/McEwans primary that the blonde underwent. It is a perfect champagne-like pale ale that had a very similar hop bill as Orval, so it comes across almost like an Imperial version (at 8.3%)

In my case, the brett took the first batch from 1.010 to only 1.007 (OG was 1.057). I still have some bottles left and we are now past one year from bottling date, and all this time they did not show any signs of overcarbonation. So I guess the FG must have stayed pretty much there. By the way the beer is still fantastic and IMO it is only getting better...

So I too was surprised that I only achieved ~2.0 volumes of co2 by way of refermentation, because I was prepared for the beer to slowly reach 1.000, netting a perfect 3.5 volumes co2. I will continue to monitor these bottles (they are corked and caged), but in 10 months they have not budged from 1.003 at 60F in my cellar.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Just bear in mind that at least 30% of the English vocabulary is French... Maybe not so obvious in the States.

Yes I know, I'm just having a bit of fun with an old Steve Martin skit.
Pour votre sant'e.

 

[Birrofilo]

I did not react on that misinformation, the yeast strain in Lambic is definitely the Brettanomyces Bruxellensis and nothing else.

Truth be told, Brettanomyces bruxellensis is the "species". A strain is a sub-species. There are 4000 known domesticated strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, and 2000 known wild strains of Saccharomices cerevisiae, but all 6000 strains belong to the species Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

I would find unlikely that all Lambic yeasts are the same strain of Brettanomyces bruxellensis, also considering that there is a long tradition of use which certainly created the occasion of a differentiation.

Also without any polemic, the species is indicated by the Genus which is always capitalized, and the "specific epithet", the word which defines the species together with the Genus, which is always lowercase, as in the examples above. The Genus is sometimes abbreviated when it is obvious in the context (e.g. it is frequently written E. coli as an abbreviation for Escherichia coli). Good typographic "manners" would also like the species (the entire binomial name) to be written in Italic.

Just my two pedantic Eurocents, and please do tell me if there's anything wrong.

 

[Orval]

Truth be told, Brettanomyces bruxellensis is the "species". A strain is a sub-species. E. coli as an abbreviation for Escherichia coli). Good typographic "manners" would also like the species (the entire binomial name) to be written in Italic.
Just my two pedantic Eurocents, and please do tell me if there's anything wrong.

Sorry, my mistake, don't expect me to compete in that field, my mother tongue is French...
Can just confirm E.Coli is correct as an abbreviation for Escherichia coli...
Here a link to an Orval clone recipe: Recette : Clone de la célèbre bière trappiste belge de l'abbaye d'Orval
some of it translated here:
Type: All grain

Batch size: 19.99 l Brewer:

Volume at boiling point: 34.11l Assistant:

Boiling duration: 90 min Material: All Grain

End Boiling Volume: 22.75 l Efficiency: 72.00 %

Bottling Volume: 17.15 l Expected Efficiency: 79.8 %

Fermentation profile : Ale, Two Stage Note (from 0 to 50): 30.0

Tasting Note:

Ingrédients

Ingrédients Quantity Name Type N° % in Total

3.71 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 78.5 %

0.47 kg Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC) Grain 2 10.0 %

0.09 kg Caravienne Malt (43.3 EBC) Grain 3 1.9 %

0.45 kg Candi Sugar, Clear (1.0 EBC) Sugar 4 9.6 %

22.50 g Styrian Goldings [4.50 %] - Boiling 76.0 min Hop 5 12.8 IBUs

11.25 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.20 %] - Boiling 76.0 min Hop 6 4.5 IBUs

21.25 g S tyrian Goldings [4.50 %] - Boiling 45.0 min Hop 7 10.6 IBUs

10.00 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.20 %] - Boiling 45.0 min Hop 8 3.5 IBUs

1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml] Yeast 9 -

1.0 pkg Brettanomyces Bruxellensis (White Labs #WLP650) [50.28 ml] [Added as secondary] Yeast 10 -

63.75 g Styrian Goldings [4.50 %] - dry hopping 7.0 Days Jours Hop 11 0.0 IBUs

Beer profile

Estimated Initial Density: 1.054 SG Measured Initial Density:

Estimated Final Density: 1.008 SG Measured Final Density:

Estimated ABV: 6.0 % Measured ABV:

Bitterness: 31.5 IBUs Calories: 427.1 kcal/l

Estimated Colour: 17.8 EBC

Batch profile

Nom: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body Total Grain: 4.73 kg

Sparging Water Volume d'Eau de Rinçage: 27.24 l Grain Temperature : 22.2° C

Sparging Temperature: 75.6 C Tank Temperature: 22.2 °C

Adjusted T° Matériel: FALSE Wort pH : 5.20

Brewing Stages Stage Name Description Stage T° Stage Duration

Protein Rest Add 14.93 l Water at 53.0 C 50.0 C 30 mn

Saccharification Rise T° to 66.7 °C in 15 min 66.7 °C 45 mn

Mash Out Rise T° to 75.6 °C in 10 min 75.6 °C in 10 mn

Sparging Stages: Continuous Sparging with 27.24 l Water at 75.6 °C

Notes: Two step profile with a protein rest for mashes with unmodified grains or adjuncts. Temperature mash for use when mashing in a brew pot over a heat source such as the stove. Use heat to maintain desired temperature during the mash.

Carbonatation and Storage

Carbonatation: CO2 Volume: 2.3

Pressure/Weight: Carbonatation Method:

Bottling T° : 7.2 C Aging Duration: 30.00 days

Aging: Ale, Two Stages Storage Temperature: 18.3 °C

 

[Birrofilo]

@Orval, thanks, finally a recipe as it should be given, with mash pH, sparging water, volume of carbonation, suggested aging time and temperature.

And thanks also for the link to that labrowar blogspot site, that's very interesting (I also read/speak French in fact).

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Some good info in this article from a visit in 1997...

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Inside_Orval

Naturally, I wanted to inquire about specifics, but feared that the notoriously private Trappist organization would stifle candor. I was wrong. My guide was quite open, revealing the details of ingredients, yeasts, mashing schedules, and boiling times. As we strolled near the fermentors and mill, my guide explained how, eight times per week, Orval’s famous ale is derived from a blend of three pale, aromatic Belgian-grown malts (Aleksi, Prisma, and a caramel; the specific blends vary from year to year), which create Orval’s vibrant orange color. The grains are mashed in at 145 °M (63 °C) and then ramped up to 162 °F (72 °C) for 60 minutes to complete the infusion mash cycle. Twenty minutes into the boil, two varieties of hops (Styrian Golding and Hallertau-Hersbrucker) are worked in. The addition of 350 kg of Belgian white candi sugar per batch pushes the original gravity from 1.040 to 1.052 (10 to 12.8 ° P).

After whirlpooling, the wort undergoes three separate fermentations. The primary fermentation is conducted in open, stainless steel vessels with a standard pale ale Saccharomyces strain at 57–71 °F (14–22 °C). This first fermentation lasts five to six days.

The beer is then transferred to horizontal stainless steel conditioning cylinders where it is dry hopped with whole hops and fermented for three weeks with a second batch of yeast at around 59 °F (15 °C). The slurry used for this fermentation is made up of as many as 10 different strains, including Brettanomyces.

The beer is then bottled with a small amount of dissolved candi sugar and fresh primary yeast to ensure a third fermentation, similar to the methode champagnoise used to make Champagne. Bottles are stored for five to six weeks at 59 °F (15 °C). Orval is neither filtered nor pasteurized. The final beer is 6.2% (v/v), though it has been known to ferment to unexpected levels in the bottle.

 

[Orval]

@Orval, thanks, finally a recipe as it should be given, with mash pH, sparging water, volume of carbonation, suggested aging time and temperature.

And thanks also for the link to that labrowar blogspot site, that's very interesting (I also read/speak French in fact).

It's my pleasure, in case I find other sites, I'll let it know.

 

[Orval]

Con piacere. It's my pleasure, in case I find other sites, I'll let it know.

well I made a mistake, how can we delete posts?

 

[monkeymath]

The only thing that surprised me is that I did not get the expected low to very-low FG.
By reading posts on forums I gathered that brett can easily take FG down to 1.000 or even below.
In my case, the brett took the first batch from 1.010 to only 1.007 (OG was 1.057). I still have some bottles left and we are now past one year from bottling date, and all this time they did not show any signs of overcarbonation. So I guess the FG must have stayed pretty much there. By the way the beer is still fantastic and IMO it is only getting better...

On the too few occasions where I used brett for a secondary fermentation, I had a very similar experience. The beer was transformed in the most wonderful way, but the gravity barely dropped.
It's not a problem per se, but I won't rely on any estimated final gravity. Just pitch brett, wait, then wait some more, then bottle with sugar as usual.

 

[guiocm]

Is the bottle too old to try and use?

I would bet the brett is alive and well in your bottle... I recently cultured the dregs from Ron and the beast Ryan (which is rather Orval-ish, and refermented with brett from Jolly Pumpkin). My bottle had a best by date in 2015.

if you can be very sanitary about it, a starter is a good idea. make it small and weak - like 200 ml of 1.020 wort. it can take a while, 2 weeks or more, for things to get going - hence the importance of sanitation, since you don't want any other critters setting up shop before the brett wakes up.

if you don't want to chance it, just pitch the dregs (and some of the beer!) and wait. if there is anything alive in there, it will find a way... could just take a while.

sweetcell's method is pretty much what I've done. 200mL of 1.020 wort, 300mL of 1.030 wort, decant and then 1.6L of 1.040 wort. All wort sterilized in the pressure cooker before inoculation.

It took 2-3 weeks to show fermentation signs, in the beginning, so don't despair if it takes a while!

On the too few occasions where I used brett for a secondary fermentation, I had a very similar experience. The beer was transformed in the most wonderful way, but the gravity barely dropped.
It's not a problem per se, but I won't rely on any estimated final gravity. Just pitch brett, wait, then wait some more, then bottle with sugar as usual.

Same here. No measurable drop of SG in the few cases I tried it.