Orval Brett

[tagz]

I recently harvested some Orval bottle dregs. The first step was surprisingly active, with nice brett aromas. Is this the same strain as 5112? Has anyone used it in a 100% brett beer? What sort of flavors would be expected from a primary ferment?

 

[stpug]

I've used it in both a secondary and primary capacity. As secondary in an oxygen-deprived, lightly pressurized contatiner I get the typical brett brux characteristics of "barnyard" and/or "sweaty horse blanket" (neither of which is actually accurate). The end result is nothing short of miraculous for the beer in question.

As for primary, I recently did a hoppy wheat all brett brux (orval dregs pulled from secondary mentioned above) and the result is extremely clean and neutral. Not sour, not funky, not characteristic at all really - the wheat and hops shine brightly on this one.

In the end, I think I got pretty much what I expected from a secondary vs primary bretted beer.

Effectively it's the same as WY5112 and WLP650, but that's like saying that Westmalle dregs are the same as WY3787.

 

[tagz]

Good info. Thanks. Any other thoughts are welcome.

 

[trentm]

I recently harvested some Orval bottle dregs. The first step was surprisingly active, with nice brett aromas. Is this the same strain as 5112? Has anyone used it in a 100% brett beer? What sort of flavors would be expected from a primary ferment?

I am new to this section of the forum as I have recently became interested in using Brett and Bugs. Until now I have been a Sacc purist and use yeast I have isolated from a number of Belgian styles including Orval. I am now in the process of isolating the Brett from an Orval and looking forward to starting my adventure into wild brews. I am saying all this because I feel it is likely your first step has both Brett and Sacc so your primary may actually be more influenced by the Sacc (which is a great yeast). However, the Brett is there and my somewhat educated guess it will come through after the Sacc has done its work.

 

[lowtones84]

Yeah, I believe Orval dregs contain sacc as well as brett. So unless you isolate the brett somehow, you won't be getting a pure brett fermentation. Either way it's great practice. I used to bottle the last gallon of every single batch I made with orval dregs just to see how it would turn out in 3-6 months

 

[tagz]

Yeah, I figured that there'd be some sacc in there. But, I guess I assumed over time the brett (6 month in the bottle) would be more resilient than the primary strain. The aromas were also very bretty, so I figured that was the dominant yeast. In any case, based on stpugs feedback, I'll probably be using it in secondary only.

 

[smokinghole]

I am new to this section of the forum as I have recently became interested in using Brett and Bugs. Until now I have been a Sacc purist and use yeast I have isolated from a number of Belgian styles including Orval. I am now in the process of isolating the Brett from an Orval and looking forward to starting my adventure into wild brews. I am saying all this because I feel it is likely your first step has both Brett and Sacc so your primary may actually be more influenced by the Sacc (which is a great yeast). However, the Brett is there and my somewhat educated guess it will come through after the Sacc has done its work.

What exactly are you doing to isolate the brett? I know cupric sulfate disrupts typical brewing yeasts in most cases. However some belgian strains will grow on the medium that contains cupric sulfate so it's not a 100% way to weed brett out from a mix. All it takes is one sacch yeast and it can throw your culture way out of whack.

The mix of yeast in Orval has become one of my favorite bottling yeasts for funk.

 

[trentm]

What exactly are you doing to isolate the brett? I know cupric sulfate disrupts typical brewing yeasts in most cases. However some belgian strains will grow on the medium that contains cupric sulfate so it's not a 100% way to weed brett out from a mix. All it takes is one sacch yeast and it can throw your culture way out of whack.

The mix of yeast in Orval has become one of my favorite bottling yeasts for funk.

Here is my plan though this is my first attempt and am in the middle of process. First I added 2ml of the Orval dregs to 7 ml of 8 degree P wort in a 15ml centrifuge tube and allowed it to get going. Over the past 3 days I have dilution streaked from the tube to wort media plates to form single cell colonies. My hope is the Brett will be a little slower to grow on the media so I can select from the smaller colonies to find the Brett and transfer the putative Brett to a clean plate. I have tried this from my first isolation but at this point I am not sure I have the Brett. I will do the same thing today and tomorrow. My thinking is the last isolation (on the third day) will have the highest Brett to Sacc ratio as most of Sacc may have flocculated by then. That was yesterday and the initial culture had cleared with a lot of yeast at the bottom of the tube. In addition, today I am going to pour off the liquid from the original culture and dilution streak from the very top layer of the tiny yeast cake.

My hope is that the putative Brett colonies will have a different morphology as they mature that will allow for ID. Also I have a microscope and hope I can confirm the Brett though comparing cell morphology of the putative Brett with a known Sacc. And then of course the "proof is in the pudding", or I should know for sure through a trial fermentation.

 

[smokinghole]

You may be able to utilize a pH indicator to help out. Brett will produce some acetic acid when grown on an aerobic plate. Also to note there is likely more than one strain of Brett, based on my knowledge of Orval and what I was told by someone who picked it apart as his microbiology thesis, he found six distinct colony morphologies during his research. So id use a pH indicator and choose the colonies with the most acid production. I always got a change on WLD which Brett will grow in as well as it being differential for bacteria. The cyclohexamide, I think that's in wld, doesn't stop brett from growing.

 

[trentm]

Good information. Thanks

 

[tagz]

Very interesting stuff!