Organic vs. chemical fertilizer for hops

[Randar]

Saying that inorganic fertilizers are harmful to plants, the environment, and humans is completely absurd. These fertilizers can be superior for plant growth depending on the circumstance.

Just one example.

Fert run-off from factory farming across the Midwest causes huge algae blooms that are not natural and support invasive species population explosions in rivers like the Illinois, Missouri, and Mississippi rivers.

See: Carp, Asian.

Please, sell crazy elsewhere telling me it has no effect on the environment because it's a natural element and not a "chemical".

 

[bobbrews]

Just one example.

Nitrogen run-off from factory farming across the Midwest causes huge algae blooms that are not natural and support invasive species population explosions in rivers like the Illinois, Missouri, and Mississippi rivers.

See: Carp, Asian.

Please, sell crazy elsewhere telling me it has no effect on the environment because it's a natural element and not a "chemical".

Cherry-picking an example of a commercial farmer and hundreds/thousands of pounds of high-strength inorganic fertilizer plus pesticides has no relationship to the same methods of a small-scale, smart, inorganic container grower who fertilizes their container plants weekly with a diluted, low N-P-K solution. If the same farmer spread 1000 lbs. of fresh manure on his same plants, you would also have environmental repercussions. In closing... for the 100th time... inorganic ferts contain no actual chemicals. They simply supply elements N-P-K and the minors in a different form. The plants don't care what that form is, and if used the way it was intended to be used, they (like fresh manure) will present no harm to the environment.

 

[Randar]

Cherry-picking an example of a commercial farmer and hundreds/thousands of pounds of high-strength inorganic fertilizer plus pesticides has no relationship to the same methods of a small-scale, smart, inorganic container grower who fertilizes their container plants weekly with a diluted, low N-P-K solution. If the same farmer spread 1000 lbs. of fresh manure on his same plants, you would also have environmental repercussions. In closing... for the 100th time... inorganic ferts contain no actual chemicals. They simply supply elements N-P-K and the minors in a different form. The plants don't care what that form is, and if used the way it was intended to be used, they (like fresh manure) will present no harm to the environment.

You made an open-ended statement, not dissimilar from those you have cherry-picked to write snarky dissertations on in this thread (and others).

Seriously, RDWHAHB.

 

[bobbrews]

I'm sorry you find it to be snarky. I'm simply speaking the truth that certain people choose not to hear. You can make up your own minds, but choice is a wonderful thing and the facts are quite clear despite certain biases I've seen here.

These days, organic seems to be the buzzword. Organic produce, organic meat, organic skin care, organic cleaning products-it makes you wonder if companies are placing the word 'organic' before their product names as a marketing ploy rather than a health concern. In the same manner, "chemical" is also a polarizing word, but rightfully so for all the wrong reasons. I suggest not labeling all Inorganic Fertilizers as "Chemical" Fertilizers. --Fact: All inorganic fertilizers and inorganic fertilizer regimens are not created equal. There are still some fertilizers with actual chemicals in them today. But as long as you avoid using poor-name brand fertilizers unfriendly to USDA with actual chemicals, hi-salt ferts, pesticides, overfertilizing with extremely high level ferts like 40-60-30 in very strong concentrations, utilizing hormones, and other biogenetically engineered substances, AND you implement them in the correct, diluted manner, then your fine. Think of good inorganic fertilizer as a vitamin or nutritional supplement that you must take every day. There's nothing wrong with supplying a weekly, low dose of diluted 3-1-2, 6-2-4, or 9-3-6 inorganic fertilizer... especially if you're growing in containers with a potting mix like pine bark, peat, perlite, etc.

This is all made to be a big deal when it's actually not. Know the facts before you decide. The buzz surrounding the 'all-organic' idealogy as it pertains to plant growth is severely misinformed, especially on the internet.

 

[Pappers_]

My eggplant has nice girth to it, with a curve. Oh, and it's purple.

 

[bigljd]

My eggplant has nice girth to it, with a curve. Oh, and it's purple.

Mine's bigger, and I've got pictures to prove it

 

[jessox80]

As the Talking Heads put it, "There's a million ways to get things done/ There's a million ways to make things work out."
I only wish that this fertilizer argument happened out loud and next to my hops so they could bask in all of the carbon dioxide.

 

[udt89]

No offense but this thread is now useless. I

 

[Reno_eNVy]

No offense but this thread is now useless. I

Then why post on it five days after the last post?

 

[udt89]

So new people, like myself, that come here can read my post and know that I read all the posts and its not worth it.

 

[afr0byte]

These days, organic seems to be the buzzword. Organic produce, organic meat, organic skin care, organic cleaning products-it makes you wonder if companies are placing the word 'organic' before their product names as a marketing ploy rather than a health concern. In the same manner, "chemical" is also a polarizing word, but rightfully so for all the wrong reasons. I suggest not labeling all Inorganic Fertilizers as "Chemical" Fertilizers. --Fact: All inorganic fertilizers and inorganic fertilizer regimens are not created equal. There are still some fertilizers with actual chemicals in them today. But as long as you avoid using poor-name brand fertilizers unfriendly to USDA with actual chemicals, hi-salt ferts, pesticides, overfertilizing with extremely high level ferts like 40-60-30 in very strong concentrations, utilizing hormones, and other biogenetically engineered substances, AND you implement them in the correct, diluted manner, then your fine. Think of good inorganic fertilizer as a vitamin or nutritional supplement that you must take every day. There's nothing wrong with supplying a weekly, low dose of diluted 3-1-2, 6-2-4, or 9-3-6 inorganic fertilizer... especially if you're growing in containers with a potting mix like pine bark, peat, perlite, etc.

This is all made to be a big deal when it's actually not. Know the facts before you decide. The buzz surrounding the 'all-organic' idealogy as it pertains to plant growth is severely misinformed, especially on the internet.

Uh, a company can't legally sell something as organic unless it meets specific USDA guidelines, so I don't know what you're talking about with companies just adding the word on.

Also, do you know what the word chemical means? All fertilizers (organic and "chemical") have chemicals in them.

 

[bobbrews]

I never said that companies are labeling non-organic goods as organic. I said that it was smart marketing by businesses to start the "organic" trend. We have seen this blow up in recent years. And very often, it does not matter whether something is grown organically or with artificial fertilizers... nutrients are nutrients... yet the consumer is being charged 3x the price for organic goods. I would be satisfied with pesticide free and hormone free... that is the real kicker. But as you said, everything contains some "chemicals"... even organic fertilizers. So in the very name, it is quite misleading to differentiate organic fertilizer vs. chemical fertilizer when both contain chemicals. Chemical compounds that occur in nature are not to be feared. It's like fats. Some fats are good for you, some bad. With chemicals, pesticides are bad for you, but N-P-K whether it is supplied by manure or a controlled fertilizer is not. The only exception would be those high value fertilizers like 50-50-50 that are applied in ridiculously high concentrations, which can burn plants and harm the environment.

 

[afr0byte]

I never said that companies are labeling non-organic goods as organic. I said that it was smart marketing by businesses to start the "organic" trend. Very often, it does not matter whether something is grown organically or not yet you're being charged 3x the price for organic goods. I would be satisfied with pesticide free. But as you said, everything contains some "chemicals"... even organic fertilizers. So in the very name, it is quite misleading to differentiate organic fertilizer vs. chemical fertilizer when both contain chemicals.

First, the point of organics aren't, primarily, to be better for you. The point, at least the point I've heard most often, is to be easier on/better for the environment.

Second, you're misinterpreting what I was saying (Perhaps I should have explained better.) Everything is made up of chemical compounds, thus everything has chemicals. I wasn't saying it's useless to differentiate between organic and non-organic. Having read this thread, it seems like you're doing the same thing you've done in water threads, you've found one source that you've personally declared as gospel. You've then declared that source as THE facts.

 

[bobbrews]

It's easy to take sides when you only practice one singular method. I use organic and chemical methods depending on the circumstance. Hops in containers are not organic friendly. Hops in ground are not chemical friendly. I've explained why numerous times in this thread. If you want to turn your head to the adequate reasoning then that is fine with me.

 

[afr0byte]

It's easy to take sides when you only practice one singular method. I use organic and chemical methods depending on the circumstance. Hops in containers are not organic friendly. Hops in ground are not chemical friendly. I've explained why numerous times in this thread. If you want to turn your head to the adequate reasoning then that is fine with me.

You're apparently very full of yourself, as you seem to consider everything you say as undisputed fact.

If hops in the ground are not chemical friendly then why are most hops grown with man-made/chemical fertilizers? Also, how come people on these forums have successfully, and organically, grown hops in containers? Plus, you never seemed to respond to comments about adding fast acting organic fertilizers (re: not knowing what you're adding). In addition, in any case, a person can get a soil test done to see if they're deficient in anything.

 

[bobbrews]

1) I'm sorry you see it that way. I'm not here to boast; just to provide an alternate viewpoint to mainstream thought.

2) Because most hops are grown commercially in several acres and bulk growth is cheaper and easier to manage with synthethic fertilizers.

3) I responded to your comments in full, and provided evidence as to why I believe against a 100% organic idealogy for all cases, but my retorts go over your head because you're so set in your beliefs.

4) Organic ferts take time to work since the soil microbes feed the plant. In containers, soil tilth/structure and biology is much less productive than in-ground growth. A closed container structure of compacted organic manure and thick, wet compact soil is not the way to achieve a fast-growing, healthy plant with everything it needs at the exact time it requires those nutrients. So if you want to guarantee the plant is receiving everything it needs with no deficiency or overabundance, then growing your plant in a light, airy well-draining soil mixture (or no soil at all - hydro/aeroponics) with a weak solution of weekly synthetic fertilizer in containers is the way to go.

Good day. That's all I care to say on the matter to someone with such a closed mind. Continue to grow as you have been for all I care.

 

[afr0byte]

1) I'm sorry you see it that way. I'm not here to boast; just to provide an alternate viewpoint to mainstream thought.

2) Because most hops are grown commercially in several acres and bulk growth is cheaper and easier to manage with synthethic fertilizers.

3) I responded to your comments in full, and provided evidence as to why I believe against a 100% organic idealogy for all cases, but my retorts go over your head because you're so set in your beliefs.

4) Organic ferts take time to work since the soil microbes feed the plant. In containers, soil tilth/structure and biology is much less productive than in-ground growth. A closed container structure of compacted organic manure and thick, wet compact soil is not the way to achieve a fast-growing, healthy plant with everything it needs at the exact time it requires those nutrients. So if you want to guarantee the plant is receiving everything it needs with no deficiency or overabundance, then growing your plant in a light, airy well-draining soil mixture (or no soil at all - hydro/aeroponics) with a weak solution of weekly synthetic fertilizer in containers is the way to go.

Good day. That's all I care to say on the matter to someone with such a closed mind. Continue to grow as you have been for all I care.

First, I never said there was anything wrong with chemical fertilizers. I never picked a side. So, I'm not sure how you decided I was so set in my ways. I'm simply calling you out on your statements that organically grown potted plants aren't a good idea. Someone in this thread posted pictures showing that you can definitely use organic methods to grow container plants.

1) It's funny how you display the traits I was commenting on in a post stating that you're just providing an alternative view point.

2) It's certainly cheaper to use chemical fertilizers. However, the point is that they get awesome growth in beds that are fed with chemicals. Yet, you say chemical fertilizers aren't "chemical friendly". I've not heard of organically grown hops (commercial producers produce those too) producing better yields or bigger hops. Can you provide me evidence of chemical fertilizers not being friendly to hops?

3) The primary evidence I've seen you post is from one guy's posts on gardenweb. Just like with some of the water threads, you're taking one source as gospel. Also, see above on me not being set in my beliefs.

4) You can achieve an organic soil that is light an airy, so you're misguided if you think otherwise. Also, there are organic fertilizers that are readily available that don't require breaking down (See compost tea, for example.).

 

[bobbrews]

That's because in all my years of gardening, it has proven to be the best advice. I've seen amazing results from following gardenwebs methods for both in-ground and container gardening. It makes absolute sense and it's not my problem you fail to see it. I suggest you read up on it some more if you want to learn. And compost teas feed the soil, not the plant. They are in no way comparable to a regular dose of weak, synthetic fertilizer with all the minors. If there is no bioculture in the soil, that compost tea is doing nothing. Try adding your compost tea to a hydroponic or aeroponic system and then get back to me with your results.

P.S - I don't see that you have listed even one source for the mindset that you believe. Not one. So don't tell me that I have to provide 3 or 4 more.

 

[bigljd]

All hail the mighty bobbrews - we are all ignorant mortals who should tremble in the presence of his greatness.
You're wasting your time trying have an intelligent conversation with bob, afrobyte. He is incapable of being wrong, and if you suggest he may be wrong, you are instantly labeled as uneducated or ignorant. He's just a troll that never goes away.

 

[afr0byte]

All hail the mighty bobbrews - we are all ignorant mortals who should tremble in the presence of his greatness.
You're wasting your time trying have an intelligent conversation with bob, afrobyte. He is incapable of being wrong, and if you suggest he may be wrong, you are instantly labeled as uneducated or ignorant. He's just a troll that never goes away.

Yeah, for sure. He apparently fails to see that he continually does the same thing. He takes one source and uses it as gospel. He did something similar in a couple of water chemistry threads. I looked at the gardenweb forums. It's a wicked hive mind over there. Someone posted in the organic section asking for advice on an organic potting mix, and people were posting suggesting the same guys potting mix that uses chemical fertilizer. They apparently don't understand the point of organic gardening. It's very well possible that hops might not grow as well in organic potting mix, in a container, but that's not the point. They certainly can grow well, as people on this forum have proven. Plus, the primary point of organic gardening is to be friendly to the earth.

 

[bobbrews]

I dispute both of your highly narrow arguments which do not hold water for "each and every" type of situation, then I'm labeled as a troll. Okay... continue to live your lives thinking that there is only one way of doing things. No sweat off my back, just don't try to convince everyone else that your way is the only way.

Plus, the primary point of organic gardening is to be friendly to the earth.

This isn't a problem with low concentration non-organic fertilizers used in controlled amounts in confined containers (which was my whole point). If you think it is, then you need to get your head checked. What you're arguing against is high concentration chemical fertilizers, and other harmful chemicals like pesticides (usually used by the acre) that can cause runoff.

My whole attempt was to allow you to understand that it's not simply a matter of Inorganic vs. Organic in every circumstance. Both can be good depending on the situation.

 

[afr0byte]

I dispute both of your arguments that don't hold water for "each and every" type of situation and I'm labeled as a troll. Okay... continue to live your lives thinking that there's only one way of doing things. No sweat off my back, just don't try to convince everyone else that your way is the only way.



This isn't a problem with low concentration non-organic fertilizers used in controlled amounts in confined containers (which was my whole point). If you think it is, then you need to get your head checked. What you're arguing against is high concentration chemical fertilizers (usually used by the acre) that cause runoff.

First, you seem to be touting your way as the best/only way. Second, it's not just the run off the organic gardeners want to steer clear of, so your point is invalid. They want to stick clear of the extra refining that goes along with chemical fertilizers, for one. Also, organic gardeners like to use organic methods because it's a good way to reduce, reuse, and recycle.

 

[bobbrews]

Go get a degree in Environmental Science and then come back to me. Until then, your points, which you are trying to stress so much, are invalid.

There is never only ONE way of doing things.

 

[afr0byte]

Go get a degree in Environmental Science and then come back to me. Until then, your points, which you are trying to stress so much, are invalid.

There is never only ONE way of doing things.

I never said there was only one way. Where did I say that?

EDIT: Also, it doesn't logically follow that my points are invalid simply because I don't have an environmental science degree.

 

[jfrank85]

Squash this please, I'm tired if getting notifications over a pissing match.

 

[2BeerSpeer]

squash this please, i'm tired if getting notifications over a pissing match.

+1!!!

 

[Navy_Chief]

Can we get a moderator to shut this down and possibly delete it, this is destroying pages of search results with needless arguing with no useful information posted....

 

[blefferd]

The use of inorganic fertilizers does have an effect on the environment. Take a look at the state of Florida, they are trying to ban the use of it for your yards. At least severely limit it's use and the contents of it.

That being said, I use both inorganic and organic methods in my garden and yard. It's kinda hard to spread 100 lbs of composted cow manure on your yard and expect it to look nice!

Like it was said above both have there uses and ideal applications, and if used properly inorganic fertilizer will cause little harm to the environment.

The way I see it if you grow it at home and don't use chemical pesticides or use organic/natural methods to control pests, the fertilizer does not really matter. Nitrogen is nitrogen weather it comes in granular form or from composted cow etc manure.

Healthy soil full of microbes is the key for organic, but if you live in an area that is not blessed with rich black soil it's going to take a lot of time, effort, resources and research to get it up to par using organic amendments.

Potted plants do require a lot closer attention when it comes to watering and fertilizer applications. I can see where a weekly low dose of fertilizer would be almost required if you wanted it to come even close to competing with the same plant that was in the ground getting its nutrients from good rich organic soil.

 

[blefferd]

Oh one more thing, commercial hop growers probably use inorganic/chemical fertilizers because of the size and scale of there operation. Hundreds of the same plant in one area competing for the same food is going to suck up all the nutrients in an area very fast. Hop growers don't have the luxury of plant rotation like a normal farmer does or allowing a field to grow over for a season or to to all nutrients back in the soil.

So I can see why they would use a chemical/inorganic fertilizer to amend the soil

 

[JamieDonnell102]

It's best to add organic compost to your soil since they're healthier and won't harm your land as much as chemical ones. Bone meal, shredded leaves and crops are what i often used for compost. You can add some urine for nitrogen and banana for phosphorus. But please, make sure that they're all clean.