Organic vs. chemical fertilizer for hops

[bobbrews]

Where I disagree with you and the author is in the opinion that you cannot control what is going on in a container using organics. I call bullsh*t, because using completely organic nutes you can control the nutrient contents in the container soil.

"Chemical fertilizers are available for immediate uptake while organic fertilizers must be acted on by passing through the gut of micro-organisms to break them down into usable elemental form. Since microorganism populations are affected by cultural conditions like moisture/air levels in the soil, soil pH, fertility levels, temperature, etc., they tend to follow a boom/bust cycle in container culture, which has an impact on the reliability and timing of delivery of nutrients supplied in organic form. Nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains cannot be relied upon to be available when the plant needs them. This is particularly an issue with the immobile nutrients that must be present in the nutrient stream at all times for the plant to grow normally.

Our job, because you cannot depend on an adequate supply of nutrients from the organic component of a container soil, is to provide a solution of dissolved nutrients in a concentration high enough to supply nutrients in the adequate to luxury range, yet still low enough that it remains easy for the plant to take up enough water to be well-hydrated and free of drought stress. Electrical conductivity (EC) of, and the level of TDS (total dissolved solids) in the soil solution is a reliable way to judge the adequacy of solutes and the plant’s ability to take up water. There are meters that measure these concentrations, and for most plants the ideal range of conductivity is from 1.5 - 3.5 mS, with some, like tomatoes, being as high as 4.5 mS. This is more technical than I wanted to be, but I added it in case someone wanted to search "mS" or "EC". Most of us, including me, will have to be satisfied with simply guessing at concentrations, but understanding how plants take up water and fertilizer, as well as the effects of solute concentrations in soil water is an important piece of the fertilizing puzzle.

We can maximize water uptake by keeping the concentrations of solutes low, so a continual supply of a weak solution is best. Nutrients don’t often just suddenly appear in large quantities in nature, so the low and continual dose method most closely mimics the nutritional supply Mother Nature offers. If you decide to adopt a "fertilize every time you water" approach, most liquid fertilizers can be applied at ¾ to 1 tsp per gallon for best results. If you decide that’s too much work, try halving the dose recommended & cutting the interval in half. You can work out the math for granular soluble fertilizers and apply at a similar rate.

When plants are growing robustly, I try to fertilize my plants weakly (pun intended) with a half recommended dose of the concentrate at half the suggested intervals. When plants are growing slowly, I fertilize more often with very weak doses. It’s important to realize your soil must drain freely and you must water so a fair amount of water drains from your container each time you water to fertilize this way."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0323131520631.html

 

[bigljd]

Once your hop plants are established, all you can really do to add organic compost to them is to put the compost on the top around them right? How can you mix the compost into the soil once the hop plants are already established in the soil?

From what I know, nutrients from the compost will still run down into the soil below just like with artificial fertilizers, just more slowly.

While compost does feed the plants as it slowly breaks down, it is mostly there to improve soil health and provide beneficial microbes, and if used as mulch it will help keep the soil cooler and retain moisture. If your plants are already in the ground and you want to use organic nutrients, I would top dress the soil with blood and bone meal (or a balanced organic dry nutrient) in the spring before applying the compost mulch so that the beneficials will break down the nutrients and it will soak down into the soil to provide continuous food to the plants.
Before planting rhizomes it helps to mix a generous amount of compost or organic material into the soil to help improve soil structure (it loosens up clay soils, and helps retain moisture in sandy soil). It's recommended to mix the organic materials into the soil a month or more before planting though, because as the materials decompose they may pull nitrogen from the soil, so it could result in a nitrogen deficiency in your plants. I think this can be offset though by applying some fish fertilizer when the plants sprout, to give them a boost of N.
Liquid organic ferts can be mixed with water and applied throughout the season if needed too. I find that if the soil is healthy and you provide blood and bone to the soil in the spring and keep a nice layer of compost on the surface throughout the season, any type of plant will have more food than it needs all year long.

 

[dragonbreath11]

Good write up AgingHopster. First time hearing about a compost tea starter.

 

[bigljd]

"
When plants are growing robustly, I try to fertilize my plants weakly (pun intended) with a half recommended dose of the concentrate at half the suggested intervals. When plants are growing slowly, I fertilize more often with very weak doses. It’s important to realize your soil must drain freely and you must water so a fair amount of water drains from your container each time you water to fertilize this way."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0323131520631.html

So what he is saying, is that he provide small amounts of nutrients to the plants on a very regular schedule so that the plants have a continuous supply of food available to them... EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS WHAT MICROBES PROVIDE TO PLANTS IN AN ORGANIC ENVIRONMENT WHEN THEY BREAK DOWN CONTROLLED AMOUNTS OF ORGANIC NUTRIENTS SUPPLIED BY ME... ROTHFLMAO.

 

[bigljd]

Good write up AgingHopster. First time hearing about a compost tea starter.

+1, nice write up. I do compost tea's too, but got a bit lazy about using them last year. I need to get back into that again this year.

 

[bigljd]

Things tend to go over your head a lot don't they? Read more into the entire article... please. For your own sake. Anyone can cherry pick a quote to suit their own purposes.

**** I also disagree with the theory the microbes follow a boom/bust cycle IF you use compost tea's or regularly provide fresh compost or worm castings to the container. With synthetic fertilizers you apply them weekly at reduced rates to provide continuous food to the plants. With organics you do the same but with organic nutrients, while also boosting microbe colonies with compost teas or top dressing with fresh compost or castings. End result = same.

 

[AgingHopster]

so what organics can be picked up at Lowes,HD and WMart? I saw Osmocote organic food pellets at WM but it was 7-7-7..

Lowes has a nice selection of organic nutes such as bone meal and blood meal and Alaska fish emulsion.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I'm a big fan of organics - stuff like Fox Farms is good stuff but a bit pricey and more intended for growing hops cousin plant (although I'm sure hops would love the stuff). There are lots of organic options out there that work great and can be found at Wmart, HD, Lowes. Miracle gro makes an organic fertilizer that is composted poultry manure that works good for early growth since it's high in Nitrogen. Fish derived fertilizers are great too for early growth. Sprinkle some bone meal around the crowns to add phosphorus and calcium to the soil and keep the area covered with a nice layer of compost or leaf mold and your plants will be pretty well fed all year. Good healthy soil with lots of room for the plants to spread roots will pay off nicely at harvest time.

Miracle grow and chemical fertilizers will grow plants quickly, but it's like feeding your kids steroids to make them bigger and stronger. They become dependant on the chemicals, and the chemicals will kill all beneficial bacteria and microbes in the soil that naturally help feed plants and keep them healthy. If you stop feeding them the chemicals the plants become weak and more prone to disease.

I really enjoy watching all my plants in my garden grow every year, knowing that earthworms, microbes and all sorts of little creatures are symbiotically working together to make my plants green, healthy and strong. But I am a bit of a dork.

As was kinda mentioned here.....if you really want more info on what hops like read the endless bounty of information(still choose good sources of course) about growing pot. They are members of the same plant family and for this reason have an extreme similarity in what they like and how to grow them. Plus with the whole med scene people are putting some serious time into studying the most natural and productive methods.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Just to add...always go organic as possible, Im using a mix of organic potting soil, perlite, organic compost derived from cow manure(used as a topsoil), and periodically liquified worm castings for my cascades right now. Bat Guano is also some pretty awesome stuff. To me, the point of growing things yourself to consume instead of just buying it is so you dont have to ingest pesticides and chemicals.

 

[bobbrews]

bigljd said:

"Miracle grow and chemical fertilizers will grow plants quickly, but it's like feeding your kids steroids to make them bigger and stronger. They become dependant on the chemicals, and the chemicals will kill all beneficial bacteria and microbes in the soil that naturally help feed plants and keep them healthy. If you stop feeding them the chemicals the plants become weak and more prone to disease."

Absolutely 100% false.

Plants do not care if the nutrients are supplied organically or synthetically. Ions are ions. What does matter is how a person chooses to feed his or her plants. The method is where most people mess up.

I suggest getting the word "chemical" out of your minds and replacing it with non-organic or synthetic. A "chemical" is much more akin to something like a "pesticide" and not akin to something like nitrogen or potassium which may be essentially supplied in the form of a plant vitamin.

The truth is that people choose to believe: Organic = Good ~ Synthetic = Bad

... and unless they are willing to learn this is not always the case, you really can't convince them otherwise because their minds are set.

 

[bigljd]

bigljd said:

... and unless they are willing to learn this is not always the case, you really can't convince them otherwise because their minds are set.

ROTFLMAO. I've tried them all buddy, and am drawing from personal experience, not from what I read from one author on the interwebs. Why don't you let the thread carry on as the OP intended.

 

[jfrank85]

Why can't we use both? Can't we just use a nice nutrient rich soil mix and still fertilize with "chemicals"? Honestly I've never had an issue.

 

[bigljd]

And this is what my plants look like.

Organic lettuce and herbs in containers on my front porch. They grow just as fast as the plants I used to grow with Miracle gro, and are much more healthy.

Hydrangea grown organically in a big container. The thing couldn't be happier.

Organic bee and butterfly garden.

Fully organic vegie garden - at the end of the garden (can't see them in this pic) there are two large containers of garlic that we grow organically every year.

I'm not saying you can't grow plants like this with regular fertilizers - that choice is up to the grower. I've done it both ways. But I'll emphatically restate my previous point - to say you can't grow amazing plants in containers using organics is silly.

Show me your plants now Bob.

 

[rhamilton]

I've done both organic and chemical nutes -- in the grand scheme of things they are basically the same thing to plants. So stop the ignorant bickering.

Organics is the ideal way but you need to plan ahead, get your soil mix down, etc. The only reason I say organics is ideal is because if you do it right, it is incredibly low maintenance, has incredibly good results, and the end products always seem to be better vs chemical nutes. It can also be cheaper if you do your own composting and your soil will need less amendments year after year to keep it nutrient rich. It's more work up front but the long-term results are worth it IMO. There is a reason my family eats from the 1 acre garden and not the 4000 acre commercial grow. Then again, that 1 acre took several years to get developed....

Chemicals are convenient, easy to use, and are immediately available to the plant. Some organic nutes can take 3+ months to become available to the plant which isn't ideal. If your plant is showing a deficiency, it needs nutrients now -- not 3 months from now. The down side is you can burn plants by not dosing correctly. You can also damage the soil and disrupt the natural ecosystem around and under the soil.

My garden is organic-based but I'm not afraid to pull out chemical nutes if my plants are showing a deficiency. I'm not selling or claiming them to be organic so I get the best of both worlds -- the long-term benefits of organic and the instant results of chemical based when I can tell my plants need it.

 

[bobbrews]

Show me your plants now Bob.

Gladly.

Keep in mind. What you and I do are vastly different. You're mostly starting in containers and then transplanting them in-ground. I grow full-fruiting, full-flowering plants in containers throughout their entire life cycle. I began as a 100% organic grower just like anyone else, for the supposed "health allure", being friendly to mother nature, all that bullcrap. I quickly realized that I was on the wrong path for container gardening (whether indoors or outdoors). Organic ferts smell if you're an indoor grower, they don't provide adequate soil tilth/structure, the nutrients are not immediately available to plants, they are more difficult to measure especially if you supplement growth with some synthetic ferts, and therefore you never know if you're under-doing it or over-doing it.

By the way, these were all fertilized (weakly, weekly) with Miracle Gro 12-4-8. Plants don't care how the nutrients are delivered as long as their delivered adequately and appropriately. For container growth however, inorganic fertilizer is the way to go for many, many reasons. I don't have anything against organics for in-ground plants. Organic is superior for in-ground growth so good for you. Despite all this, organic ferts are not superior in all circumstances. It isn't going to give you healthier, larger, more robust plants. It isn't going to be healthier for you. Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium and all the minors are supplied just as well with inorganic vs. organic ferts. This has nothing to do with chemical pesticides, or other scary chemicals being absorbed by your plants.

My main goal here is to prove that organic gardening is not always superior. There are just as many disadvantages with it as inorganic gardening depending on the circumstance. For container gardening, organic methods are NOT superior... they are a distant second choice. The truth is that "Organic" is a very polarizing word. And the media has led you to believe inorganic = bad, organic = good... This is not always the case and you would be wise to learn the whole truth. I'm not trying to be mean or patronizing, so I would appreciate if you knew that I'm not here to dismiss your opinions.

 

[bobbrews]

...More

 

[bobbrews]

...And more

 

[Randar]

Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.

Now both of you knock it off.

 

[bigljd]

Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.

Now both of you knock it off.

LOL, next comes the peeing contest.

Nice plants Bob - they look very nice. Never said organic is always better, just wanted to let people know organics do work in containers.

Now maybe we can get back to growing hops and making beer.

Truce

 

[badbrew]

I'm debating a water culture cascade project. I'm pretty damn busy with my front landscape and current hop garden in the back though so I might try that next year. I did it with cantaloupes and they grew into fruits that look identical to gourmet store bought.

 

[dragonbreath11]

Great plants bigljd and bobbrews. Both look awesome. I'm a big fan of organic gardening and just don't like putting man-made manufactured chemicals on plants container or otherwise. I'm not saying you can't have the same yield with organics as chemicals but to me there's just a certain greater satisfaction I feel when my plants mature from seed to harvest organically. To each his own though.

 

[Pappers_]

Great plants bigljd and bobbrews. Both look awesome. I'm a big fan of organic gardening and just don't like putting man-made manufactured chemicals on plants container or otherwise. I'm not saying you can't have the same yield with organics as chemicals but to me there's just a certain greater satisfaction I feel when my plants mature from seed to harvest organically. To each his own though.

This is my approach, also.

 

[Pappers_]

Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.

Now both of you knock it off.

My eggplant is bigger than your eggplant

 

[bobbrews]

Food for thought:

People have been quite successful at growing plants in containers via hydroponic or aeroponic methods. In these container cultures, there are no organics. There are controlled synthetic fertilizer applications, clay or plastic rocks, or fiberglass-based sponge material... and with aeroponic growth, the roots simple dangle in mid air! Yet with both containerized methods, the plants grow much faster and more vigorously than plants grown in soil. So organic container soil culture is unnecessary at best and counter-productive at worst.

Organic methods are great for in-ground growth... not so much containers. Both will work, but there are many other, far more superior container media choices than manure and compost. You might be able to 'make' the organic fertilizer approach work if you are so inclined, or if your ideology dictates it, but it really is a little like stumbling around in the dark because you have very little control over the 'what and when' of your plant's nutritional needs. Soluble inorganic fertilizers offer the clarity of knowing exactly how much of what you are applying, and it's immediately available, regardless of soil biotic activity.

When all is said and done, with container growth, soil is completely unnecessary, thus feeding the soil with organics is completely unnecessary. Plants don't care about the soil in this environment; they care about access to nutrients. The truth is that nutrients are much easier to supply in a controlled way through IN-organic fertilizer usage. Abiding by an all-organic approach will not make you live longer or be healthier. You're not technically using chemicals with either method... it's more a matter of organic vs. inorganic, and how the provided nutrients are processed by the plant for immediate uptake vs. feeding the soil to promote microorganism culture in said soil over a prolonged period.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.

Now both of you knock it off.

I just about pissed myself laughing when I read this

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I just cant see how the soil health isnt important if your plants roots are living in it. I agree nutrients are nutrients your right there. But its important to maintain a healthy growing medium to prevent moulds and disease. I fight that without using pesticides and herbicides. I say to each their own as long as the plants are healthy and getting what they need.

 

[Randar]

Food for thought:

It's not food for thought. You've said the same thing repeatedly. Nothing new here to think about. Maybe it's just all the chemical ferts you use that have built up in your nervous system, though, so I'll give you a pass. Just this once.

People have been quite successful at growing plants in containers via hydroponic or aeroponic methods. In these container cultures, there are no organics. There are controlled synthetic fertilizer applications, clay or plastic rocks, or fiberglass-based sponge material... and with aeroponic growth, the roots simple dangle in mid air! Yet with both containerized methods, the plants grow much faster and more vigorously than plants grown in soil. So organic container soil culture is unnecessary at best and counter-productive at worst.

Physical plant growth is a basic I/O system. We all get it. Healthy plants require less maintenance and IME, organically grown and biodiverse crops require the least amount of effort to keep nutrients balanced and pests at bay. Granted, native soils are different from region to region and we are blessed with some of the most fertile soils on Earth here in the Midwest. I get it that you are fixated on container growing, but that is a VERY small subset of hop growers (yes, that's what this forum is about) as a whole.

Abiding by an all-organic approach will not make you live longer or be healthier.

Says you. It makes me happier and I have to buy fewer chemicals that run off into the soil and I have to apply fewer pesticides and herbicides because I am not indiscriminately creating nutrient "blooms"... I will assert that it will indeed, on average, help me live a longer and more personally fulfilling life.

Again. If it makes you happy, SUPER FANTASTIC FUN TIME! And in containers I tend to agree with you (for the most part), but the preaching is quite tiresome (and hilariously ironic since you purport the organic supporters to be the preachers of the bunch).

 

[Pappers_]

Seriously, let's just pull out our eggplants and measure them.

 

[Randar]

Seriously, let's just pull out our eggplants and measure them.

Careful, I grow the long Chinese variety... but they are pencil thin.

 

[bobbrews]

It's not food for thought. You've said the same thing repeatedly. Nothing new here to think about.

Actually, it's not the same information. I just explained that you can grow plants successfully without even using soil via hydroponics & aeroponics. Therefore, if you don't need soil to grow healthy plants, and the whole idealogy of organic gardening is to feed the plants via the soil, then what's the point?

Healthy plants require less maintenance and IME, organically grown and biodiverse crops require the least amount of effort to keep nutrients balanced and pests at bay.

Matter of opinion. I would say that both idealogies have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the amount of overall effort put forth. Inorganic growers don't have to bother with mixing composted manure, greens and browns, constantly 'feeding the soil', the pests attracted by recycled animal & plant waste based composts, etc. - In hydroponics and aeroponics, inorganic growers don't even need soil. I would say that is really 'minimal effort'.

I get it that you are fixated on container growing, but that is a VERY small subset of hop growers (yes, that's what this forum is about) as a whole.

It is not about fixation. The subject here is Organic vs. Inorganic. I've attempted to explain that both methods can be beneficial depending on the circumstances, i.e. Container growth vs. In-Ground growth. But that has fallen on deaf ears by a few of you because people falsely choose to believe, (whole-heartedly and without factual scientific evidence) that a 100% organic idealogy is the best choice in any and every scenerio. This is simply not the case. And I've seen plenty of hop growers growing in containers as of late.

Says you. It makes me happier and I have to buy fewer chemicals that run off into the soil and I have to apply fewer pesticides and herbicides because I am not indiscriminately creating nutrient "blooms"... I will assert that it will indeed, on average, help me live a longer and more personally fulfilling life.

I'm glad you are happier, but you're talking about two different things here. Pesticides and herbicides are chemicals; Inorganic fertilizers are not a chemicals. We're talking about things like N-P-K here, not harsh, environmentally harmful chemicals.

but the preaching is quite tiresome (and hilariously ironic since you purport the organic supporters to be the preachers of the bunch).

Sometimes people will pick and choose what to post on when they see general spread of misinformation. I am doing just that. Saying that inorganic fertilizers are harmful to plants, the environment, and humans is completely absurd. These fertilizers can be superior for plant growth depending on the circumstance.

I just cant see how the soil health isnt important if your plants roots are living in it.

See below illustrations on Aeroponics. The roots are not living in this soil, because there is no soil. The roots are hanging in mid air and sprayed with a water-diluted synthetic fertilizer every couple hours or so. Google aeroponics and hydroponics, and you will see plenty of real-life examples of how fast and vigorous plants grow via these systems.