orange hard cider?

[beergeek82]

Just a simple question, can you make hard cider with oranges?

 

[NineMilBill]

Alot of recipes use orange zest, and this one: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/orange-apple-cider-72512/ uses Orange Blossom Honey on top of that.

I don't know if there's any reason not to, but I am curious as to why I'm not showing any recipes for it.

My suggestion, regardless, is to modify this or a similiar recipe in a one gallon batch, and report your adventure on HBT. I'd be curious.

 

[Daze]

when you say hard cider with oranges are you saying apple cider with orange, or are you after something that it just oranges, more like a citrus wine cooler??

 

[truckjohn]

X2 Daze.... What are you trying to do? Ferment orange juice or make an Orangey Apple Cider?

Thanks

 

[kurtism]

cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.

if you are not using apples...you really shouldn't call it cider.

i'm had orange mead (honey wine) and mandarin orange wine and both are excellent...just depends on the sugar content and acidity.

there is no reason you can't make a 6% or a 16% orange fermented beverage.

 

[Daze]

cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.

if you are not using apples...you really shouldn't call it cider.

i'm had orange mead (honey wine) and mandarin orange wine and both are excellent...just depends on the sugar content and acidity.

there is no reason you can't make a 6% or a 16% orange fermented beverage.

thats exactly why I am trying to get another section added to the forum for things made with out apple in the stile of a cider, lower ABV possibly sweet and or carbonated. It is different than what one thinks of as "wine" but because of the lack of apples not cider I would call it:

winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more

That is why I was asking him exactly what he wanted to make and weather or not it had apples in it.

#tag#winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more

 

[GinKings]

cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.

Everybody seems to have a different "definition" of cider and wine. Where does this "definition" come from?

 

[Daze]

The early meaning if the word "cider" before apples got all mixed up in it was simply "strong drink" I have seen this debate so many times on this forum and it kind of seems silly, whats cider whats not. here is an interesting thread where I tried to define cider and got "corrected" https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/ev...t-talking-about-adding-7up-glass-wine-291272/ To make it simple I think we need to not try and make a strict definition but think of it as a perseption.

If I gave you a description "fruit crushed to extract the juice and fermented with the natural yeast found on the skin of the fruit" What comes to mind?? If you thought making wine from fresh grapes you would be correct, if you thought making hard apple cider you would also be correct. For all intents and purposes you have made the exact same thing only with two different fruits. Other than the obvious flavor differences between a grape and an apple there are two other main difference between these two creations. The first is ABV as the grapes have a much higher sugar content and can ferment out more alcohol, and the second is residual non fermentable sweetness that can (if using certain techniques and apples) be created in a cider. The result is two things that are perceived as totally different.

You could make a bunch different definitions for different categories but there would still probable be a bunch of crossover. The real key to "defining" a beverage is how it is perceived. If some one said to you "would you like some apple wine?" there is an image that comes to mind, dry, still, tart, smooth, and with a higher alcohol content than beer, or cider. Now with this picture in your mind of expecting a wine, and a carbonated cider was set in front of you would it fit the bill??? probably not because the perception is different. On the flip side if some one said to you "would you like some raspberry cider?" there is again an image that comes to mind, sweet, carbonated, tart, smooth, a lower alcohol content than that of wine AND a dominant apple flavor with a hint of raspberry. Now with this picture in your mind of expecting a cider, and a raspberry only wine cooler type drink was set in front of you would it fit the bill??? again probably not because the general perception of cider is apples.

 

[NineMilBill]

+1

Reminds me of the "Brewer chooses which category his or her beer falls into" section during competitions. Crossovers, both with definition and taste, are fairly common.

Anyway, still curious if the OP wants to put orange slices in an apple cider or not. My advice is still the same....Just do it and tell us what happens...

 

[kurtism]

Everybody seems to have a different "definition" of cider and wine. Where does this "definition" come from?

wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider

basically, hard cider is just a low ABV apple wine.

not trying to threadjack here but my loose definitions are
...fermented from fruit (no barely/grains) ---> wine (which includes mead, hard cider, hard lemonade, etc)
...fermented from grains (hopped or unhopped and regardless of fruit adjuncts) ---> beer
...distilled stuff ---> spirits

all other definitions are meaningless because ultimately these 3 are all encompassing, at least to me.

it seems that the OP wants to make a low ABV orange beverage that fits the cider style as daze said...so since there is no "word" for low ABV wine, why can't we just call it orange wine.

take for example my hard apple "cider". it doesn't fit the wikipedia definition of cider because I brew up a high ABV cider. it is apple wine, but i don't like that for my label so I still call it "cider"

most people say i didn't make cider because the last batch was 18.6% and that's fine but as i'm printing my label, i'll put what i please on it.

I am currently making pineapple wine. there is no difference between my apple beverage and pineapple beverage except the fruit...its essentially the same recipe, just a fruit difference. My point is...it doesn't matter what you really call it as long as people understand what's in it. if the OP isn't making a beverage with any apples in it, it might confuse someone because orange cider isn't a usual term.

 

[GinKings]

cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less fermented beverage made from apples

apple wine are the words for a a fermented beverage greater that ~8.5% ABV.

wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider

basically, hard cider is just a low ABV apple wine.

not trying to threadjack here but my loose definitions are
...fermented from fruit (no barely/grains) ---> wine (which includes mead, hard cider, hard lemonade, etc)
...fermented from grains (hopped or unhopped and regardless of fruit adjuncts) ---> beer
...distilled stuff ---> spirits

all other definitions are meaningless because ultimately these 3 are all encompassing, at least to me.


take for example my hard apple "cider". it doesn't fit the wikipedia definition of cider because I brew up a high ABV cider. it is apple wine, but i don't like that for my label so I still call it "cider"

most people say i didn't make cider because the last batch was 18.6% and that's fine but as i'm printing my label, i'll put what i please on it.

Personally, I wouldn't trust wikipedia to define cider, but if you read it, they say that "Cider varies in alcohol content from 2% abv to 8.5% abv or more in traditional English ciders". www.bjcp.org , for example, lists cider styles up to 13%.

I asked the question about your "definition" because I don't believe there is a clear cut definition, yet everybody seem to have one. If you label your 18.6% apple beverage as cider, why would you make the blanket statement that "cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less"? I don't mean to give you a hard time. Just prior to reading your post, I read another stating that cider is 7% or less.

 

[NineMilBill]

I think we can all agree that none of us have any idea what cider is.

 

[Daze]

I think the problems is strict definitions. Strictly speaking if I make a batch of rhubarb wine and then I carbonate it I do not have champaign even if I call it champaign, because it was not made in champaign France, BUT If I say I just made a batch of rhubarb champaign, every body knows what I am talking about. As was already said the bottom line is, all drinks made by letting yeast convert sugars into alcohol: beer, wine, cider it is all the same thing on a fundamental level. There are however some basic perceptions in categorizing that most would agree with and that will usually be more accurate than a strict definition because the problem with a strict definition is there will always be some overlap due to the common foundation all these beverages have.

Perceptions:

Grain = beer
Honey = meed
fruit -apples + higher ABV = wine
co2 + wine = champaign/sparkling wine
apples = cider

and maybe
fruit - apples + lower ABV + or - sweetenss + or - co2 = winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more but is ≠to wine


The whole reason I even brought any of this up is I still feel there is room for one more subsection on this forum for something like cider in perception (lower abv, sweet, carbonated.... refreshing) I have made half a dozen posts saying as much in the new forum request thread

What it really comes down to for me is what would you drink, sitting out on the porch on a hot afternoon after working in the yard?? A cold beer sounds nice, cold cider would be great, a cold *"winecooler" type beverage or hard lemonade would be fantastic, but a cold glass of wine or meed is not going to fit the bill. Wine is something savored, great with a meal or when relaxing after a hard day at the office. You don't take a big swig of wine to refresh your self. Because wine and cider are significantly different they are categorized differently on the form. So it stands to reason that something made with the same goals in mind with a cider and the only difference being the fruit used would also be separate from wine.

*I use the word winecooler loosely. Winecoolers in a store bought sense are not very good, but it is the only word I can come up with (since cider implies apples) that is even close to the kind of beverage I am talking about. Winecooler is used in the same way that champaign is used. You say the word and most people immediately know what kid of beverage you are describing at least the basic characteristics of the beverage even if that is not what the beverage is based on a strict definition.


#tag#winecoolers, hard soda, hard lemonade & more

 

[Daze]

all that aside I would still LOVE to know what the OP had in mind so we can help him regardless of what category his request falls into.

 

[kurtism]

Personally, I wouldn't trust wikipedia to define cider, but if you read it, they say that "Cider varies in alcohol content from 2% abv to 8.5% abv or more in traditional English ciders". www.bjcp.org , for example, lists cider styles up to 13%.

I asked the question about your "definition" because I don't believe there is a clear cut definition, yet everybody seem to have one. If you label your 18.6% apple beverage as cider, why would you make the blanket statement that "cider is the word for ~8.5% ABV or less"? I don't mean to give you a hard time. Just prior to reading your post, I read another stating that cider is 7% or less.

wow..i don't think you can read at all.

to doubt wikipedia and believe some other thing you hear/read on a forum is ridiculous because the same people that post of forums like this are the same people that edit wikipedia so you are just blindly choosing who to believe because it suits you. Obviously there is NO CLEAR CUT #!

some people even say cider is just apple juice, water and yeast, meaning no extra sugars while others are ok with adding sugar.

where the number actually is will vary quite a bit...but it is clear that the traditional definition is that an apple beverage in the "beer" range of ABV is a cider and one that is a higher ABV is apple wine. look at all the cider recipies, edwort's wine, etc.

For my label on my apple beverage, i particularly chose to use the words hard apple cider because it sounds better to me even though I know most people say that a beverage at 18.6% is clearly a wine not a cider. Had I distilled it and made apple brandy...I'd still call it cider because I just like the name better. that is a marketing decision. it is akin to applying the blanket term of champagne to california sparking white wine. it isn't champagne because it's not from that region of france but people still call it that because it is utterly identical except for some posh french rule.

most importantly why i doubt your ability to read and comprehend my point is that no matter what you want to call it...it is truly irrelevant because HARD APPLE CIDER IS WINE. It is a fruit wine. I am just repeating part of my above post that purely states that wine is an alcoholic beverage made from fermenting fruit without grain, is a wine. It doesn't matter if it is 2% or 15% ABV.

end rant...so as Daze said...I await the OP actually describing what he is trying to do.

the only issue is that this thread really be about is what the OP asked about...is he making an apple-orange cider or an orange wine.

to get back to that...if making an apple-orange blend, i'd ferment the apples to make your base and add the orange component to the secondary. if making an orange wine, i'd be concerned with the pH being too low for fermentation to start. I'd recommend a vigorous starter with a bit of citric acid to get the yeast accustomed to it.

 

[brewingmeister]

Haha...Good to see we can argue daily about the definition of cider. a quick search gives this definition:

ci·der/ˈsīdər/
Noun:
An unfermented drink made by crushing fruit, typically apples.
An alcoholic drink made from fermented crushed fruit, typically apples.

It makes it more fun to argue what it is when there are multiple definitions for a apple based beverage that may or may not be fermented. Carry on.

 

[truckjohn]

Sure, it's fun to argue about definitions...

But.. We still haven't gotten any sort of idea what Mr. OP is actually trying to do.... and that's the crux of the whole question....

Is he trying to ferment Orange juice - or is he trying to make an apple cider with an orange essence?

Thanks

 

[kurtism]

i think the OP is probably fermenting away with his orange flavored beverage, whatever it may be, and just laughing at us (me?) in this thread

 

[Daze]

This amazes me just yesterday I made the comment in reply to some one else's definition of "cider"

I think technically a cider has to be under 7%, anything over is wine.

Be carful I made that comment once before and it was like whacking a hornets nest. try and define "cider" and you will get a ton of different answers including some that allow for it to be more than 7%... a lot more

And sure enough here we are on a different thread and the hornets are buzzing about, and tempers are flaring, all over the definition of the word cider. WOW I am impressed!!! (no sarcasm, I am truly impresses)

I choose to see the positive in all this, obviously cider making is something we are all extremely passionate about or else defining it wouldn't cause such controversy.

 

[brewingmeister]

This amazes me just yesterday I made the comment in reply to some one else's definition of "cider"

That's why I posted a definition which gives two different paths you could take to describe what cider is...and it doesn't get into the strength or any other variants.

Apparently the humor of the whole thing was lost somewhere along the road...

We can only guess what the op meant by orange cider.

 

[SenorPepe]

Well, I'm glad that's settled.

 

[brewingmeister]

Well, I'm glad that's settled.

Yep, I'm sure we'll never see a cider definition argument ever again...until tomorrow.

 

[NineMilBill]

Yep, I'm sure we'll never see a cider definition argument ever again...until tomorrow.

Actually, cider is a fermented apple beverage below 7% ABV.


Edit: I mean above 7%
Edit: Wait, no...that's wine
Edit: Unless there's malt, then that's Graff

Crap.

 

[beergeek73]

While every one was bickering about what cider, wine, beer, barley wine i came up with a recipe here it is for orange cream please try and let me know

2 gallons orange juice
s cans orange juice concentrate
1 lbs oats
1oz vanilla extract
4 lbs surgar

heat orange juice, oats in grain bag and vanilla extract to 160f in pot do not go over 170f, add sugar and let set at 160-170f for 20 min cool down to 80f and put in fermentor, with 3 gallons cold water to drop to 72f add yeast maybe a alel yeast or a witbeir yeast let sit for 7-10 days and test, put in keg and carbonate for 24 hours and bottle

 

[robbyhicks]

Have you attempted this beergeek? I would be interested in trying something along these lines...

 

[Apple_Jacker]

7-10 days seems awfully fast to get a (good tasting) product from an orange wine. And from what I've read, orange smells and tastes god-awful...at first. Also, I don't think heating the juice is necessary, unless you are just heating enough of the juice to dissolve the sugar. I'll be checking on this one for sure. It if turns out good for you, maybe I'll attempt a 1 gallon tester.

Edit: I should look at the dates before I reply haha. Did you make this, and how did it turn out?

 

[JLP]

While every one was bickering about what cider, wine, beer, barley wine i came up with a recipe here it is for orange cream please try and let me know

2 gallons orange juice
s cans orange juice concentrate
1 lbs oats
1oz vanilla extract
4 lbs surgar

heat orange juice, oats in grain bag and vanilla extract to 160f in pot do not go over 170f, add sugar and let set at 160-170f for 20 min cool down to 80f and put in fermentor, with 3 gallons cold water to drop to 72f add yeast maybe a alel yeast or a witbeir yeast let sit for 7-10 days and test, put in keg and carbonate for 24 hours and bottle

Has anyone actually tried this recipe?

 

[robbyhicks]

Any results from this one as of yet? I did see another thread that reference skeeterpee, fermenting lemonade, so I cant imagine this being all THAT bad...

 

[Evochild]

This Im keen to try. I am debating about doing it in a similar style to my Gingerbeer or using the oats and boil recipe. I assume that the oats is used to give the "creamy" feel / taste to the brew. I would possibly boil the oats and sugar together and not the orange juice.

Ive been wanting to experiment a bit this could be fun.

 

[robbyhicks]

If you really want to add to thd creaminess maybe half and half or 3 to 1 sugar to lactose...